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Default N55 Dyno - Testing out the back end flash - 12-06-2013, 09:48 PM

Hey guys,

Had a chance to take our stock turbo 2011 N55 DCT out for a couple hours of dyno tuning today. We've been doing a lot of N55 back end flash development to hopefully better take advantage of a heavy ethanol mix. Changes like raising peak advance from 7 degrees to 12 degrees, enriching the AFR, reducing the throttle activity, adjusting back end fuel trims, etc. Logs have all been great on the road so I decided to head over to the dyno to see what sort of gains we've gotten.

Unfortunately for better or worse it appears the ~7 degree OEM timing curve is pretty close to MBT. I tried various timing curves from 5 to 13 degrees peak with no significant change in output. I also tried various air/fuel ratios and finally various throttle curves with no significant change in power output, spool, or anything else other than how pretty the logs look. Attached is a log of the OEM flash and one of various back end flash setups tested. Along with the corresponding dyno chart for comparison.

So long story short, work continues on the N55 front, but as far as stock turbo performance the back end flash is not going to be the golden bullet I was hoping it was. On the plus side I was able to stabilize the idle with the flash. I'm going to spend more time on idle to see if I can somehow do the same using the JB4 alone without the flash in place. Another bummer on the flash is that it can not yet remove the speed delimiter. Cobb is still working on that.
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Default 12-06-2013, 10:12 PM



335is DCT
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Default 12-06-2013, 10:39 PM

I wonder... does all this n55 oddness have anything to do with valvetronic features attempting to control load?
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deemarr 335i deemarr 335i is offline
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Default 12-06-2013, 11:00 PM

Damn that's terrible the N55 really is a fail smh.
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Default 12-07-2013, 12:31 AM

Does the various "limiter" settings have been modified?
Absolutely no change with such timing improvments leads to the conclusion that:
- the turbo/ engine is already at his maximum
- or the limiters on the flash have not been modified or even still not been discovered


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Default 12-07-2013, 04:05 AM

Aaaaaaand: nothing -.-'
Something here isn't working how it should


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Default 12-07-2013, 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
I wonder... does all this n55 oddness have anything to do with valvetronic features attempting to control load?
Doesn't appear to be the case. I also tested the Cobb base flash maps, back end maps with higher load, all sorts of stuff. Nothing performed much better than the OEM flash on the dyno.


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Default 12-07-2013, 05:17 PM

damn thats not good news. was hopeful that we might break the 400 mark with the flash.
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Default 12-09-2013, 08:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Hey guys,

Had a chance to take our stock turbo 2011 N55 DCT out for a couple hours of dyno tuning today...
Terry,
was 2011 N55 a DCT? My 2013 N55 is just 6AT


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Default 12-09-2013, 09:03 AM

It's a 135i. Those are DCT.


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Default 12-09-2013, 09:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyim1988
damn thats not good news. was hopeful that we might break the 400 mark with the flash.
Me too. It seems we just can't win with this platform. If the weather holds out I'll go race the Vargas turbo N55 this weekend before we pull the turbo. Hopefully can get a 11.8x out of it.


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Default 12-09-2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
It's a 135i. Those are DCT.
Oh, got it. Thanks. Fell behind again


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Default 12-09-2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
I wonder... does all this n55 oddness have anything to do with valvetronic features attempting to control load?
We did plenty of higher load target runs with no significant power different. Valvetronic must be mapped on load. So as far as I can tell it's not having any significant effect.

This particular log is from the Cobb S2+ Aggr map as a back end flash to see what their load targets look like. Taking away 2-3 degrees advance definitely hurt power. MBT on E40 + meth is right around 7-8 degrees it appears.
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Default 12-09-2013, 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Me too. It seems we just can't win with this platform. If the weather holds out I'll go race the Vargas turbo N55 this weekend before we pull the turbo. Hopefully can get a 11.8x out of it.
Yea, its a shame! I'm sure you can get a 11.8 out of it. Hopefully my car doesnt have the electric solenoid so i can get some good power out of it.
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Default 12-09-2013, 10:42 AM

So the stock turbo just basically dies after hitting its peak at 4000rpm?
or is it anything to do with the engine?
boost looks so sad, heh


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Default 12-09-2013, 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ***sooba
So the stock turbo just basically dies after hitting its peak at 4000rpm?
or is it anything to do with the engine?
boost looks so sad, heh
yes. basically. But i think 380 hp with a ridiculous amount of torque is fun enough.
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Default 12-09-2013, 11:10 AM

it is certainly fun! but its kind of funny that every gt3071 out here passes me on the highs,
honda\seat ibiza [vw golf] 20vt and such
can realy feel the turbo die up top


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Default 12-09-2013, 01:00 PM

I am definitely interested in the work you are doing to stabilize the idle. Thanks for taking the time to work on that.
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Default 12-09-2013, 05:06 PM



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Default 12-11-2013, 07:34 AM

Although we're not seeing any significant gains with the backend flash, would the flash make it safer to run higher boost maps since the flash gains control over more variables within the DME than running the JB4 alone?


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Default 12-11-2013, 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ2
Although we're not seeing any significant gains with the backend flash, would the flash make it safer to run higher boost maps since the flash gains control over more variables within the DME than running the JB4 alone?
+1
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Default 12-11-2013, 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ2
Although we're not seeing any significant gains with the backend flash, would the flash make it safer to run higher boost maps since the flash gains control over more variables within the DME than running the JB4 alone?
The number of varaibles "controlled" is unchanged with or without the back end flash. The only difference is a few of the internal limiters and whether they are properly ranged for the higher power levels. The upper advance limits for example appear to be perfectly set for E85 or methanol use. But, if you're talking about using really poor fuels like 91 octane there may prove to be a small benefit in lowering those. We'll do some 91 octane testing down the road. The fueling side is also set nicely on the OEM flash. Dampening the throttle in the flash makes logs look prettier but as you can see in the dyno zero actual power gain there.


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Default 12-11-2013, 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
The number of varaibles "controlled" is unchanged with or without the back end flash. The only difference is a few of the internal limiters and whether they are properly ranged for the higher power levels. The upper advance limits for example appear to be perfectly set for E85 or methanol use. But, if you're talking about using really poor fuels like 91 octane there may prove to be a small benefit in lowering those. We'll do some 91 octane testing down the road. The fueling side is also set nicely on the OEM flash. Dampening the throttle in the flash makes logs look prettier but as you can see in the dyno zero actual power gain there.
Not to get off subject, but I do have a follow up question related to my original. I'm running Map 7 and thought maybe the flash would help control additional variables to make it safer as it is a fixed boost map. So, how safe is it to consistently run map 7 since I am only relying on the DME for timing/knock control?


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Default 12-11-2013, 09:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ2
Not to get off subject, but I do have a follow up question related to my original. I'm running Map 7 and thought maybe the flash would help control additional variables to make it safer as it is a fixed boost map. So, how safe is it to consistently run map 7 since I am only relying on the DME for timing/knock control?
Even with the flash tune the DME continues to control timing and monitor knock on a cylinder by cylinder basis. The only difference would be if you lowered the upper advance limiters in the flash map. In this case we raised them for testing. With the testing we found they are set basically at MBT for maxed out boost with 50% E85, so this flash with higher advance would make your setup less safe in theory. Although we won't be releasing a flash with timing set above MBT.

If your E85 mix drops low enough to allow knock the DME will lower advance just as it would if you were on 91 octane. But you don't want to get too far out of range as the tuning will become less consistent. So be sure to match the JB4 map to the fuel in the tank.


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Default 12-11-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Even with the flash tune the DME continues to control timing and monitor knock on a cylinder by cylinder basis. The only difference would be if you lowered the upper advance limiters in the flash map. In this case we raised them for testing. With the testing we found they are set basically at MBT for maxed out boost with 50% E85, so this flash with higher advance would make your setup less safe in theory. Although we won't be releasing a flash with timing set above MBT.

If your E85 mix drops low enough to allow knock the DME will lower advance just as it would if you were on 91 octane. But you don't want to get too far out of range as the tuning will become less consistent. So be sure to match the JB4 map to the fuel in the tank.
My E85 mix is always 50/50 with 91 octane. I'm assuming running map 7 is relatively safe.

Why would one choose to run an auto-tuning map over a fixed boost map?


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