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Default JB4 ISO 27.8 meth safety changes - 11-16-2013, 11:41 AM

Hi guys,

Testing out ISO 27.8 which includes some changes and new options to the JB4 meth flow settings.

First a brief overview. Generally speaking methanol is run with map 3 which adjusts boost between a low and a high boost map as a function of methanol flow and the user defined meth additive. The boost scale for the high and low map is posted below. This additive is typically 40 on pump gas (which targets around 17psi) and can go as high as 75 to target up to 20psi. Technically speaking if using the 3.5 bar map sensor it can be raised as high as 100 to provide values higher than the 75 additive.

We've moved the previous non-meth FUB options to FUD. For FUE the option to disable NLS has been replaced by setting menu 9 in dash (the 2STEP RPM) to 0.

This frees up FUE to be dedicated to meth control options (e.g. for those using the FSB), and FUB to be used for meth safety options (which apply to the FSB kits, Aquamist kits, etc).

Meth Trigger Mode: They are all self explanatory. You have the option now to allow methanol flow on map 3 only allowing your map 6 or map 7 to be a non-meth map. Not documented below is that we've also removed the meth additive on map 6. It was a good option in theory but caused too much confusion among map 6 users. So users who are using map 6 on meth will want to use one of the other methanol safety options now.

Meth Safety Mode: Due to popular demand we've added some new options here.

Note that all options work with either the FSB based kit or the Aquamist turbine flow sensor kit.

Option 0: The default meth safety mode is the most comprehensive methanol safety in the industry. Boost is raised as a function of methanol flow only raised AFTER methanol is properly flowing as verified by the FSB or turbine flow sensor. This prevents knock during spool up and post shift where it is possible for boost to hit before methanol does.

In addition the JB4 monitors historic knock activity to ensure the fluid being injected is sufficient to prevent knock for the boost/timing curve dialed in. Methanol mixture variances, weather changes, etc, can all effect whether or not a given mixture is sufficient for the tuning. Add in a little too much water one day, use fluid that isn't as potent as it should be, go out on a cold night where air is denser than normal, do a run to 140mph where IAT goes higher than normal, etc, and you can quickly find yourself running in to knock if the fluid isn't up to the task. JB4 owners of course can always monitor timing in dash but I'm sure few do. This safety works full time behind the scenes to protect your engine from this sort of a situation.

But all this safety comes at a price. Waiting for methanol to get up to flow before raising boost up to full target means you sometimes need to delay boost while methanol starts flowing. And sometimes when you are racing you want to keep full boost even with some knock because winning the race is more important to you. So we've got some other options below.


Option 1: This is the same as FUB = 100 previously. Boost increases are mapped on methanol flow but the historic timing activity is ignored. This was previously added prior to the "flatline fix" where timing would drop negative post shift in some cars not due to knock but due to torque management. The JB4 would incorrectly interpret this timing drop as knock and reduce boost accordingly. So this was a way to bypass that system. Today it's used by those who wish to monitor timing directly and for whatever reason do not want boost reduced as a function of low timing. Often by those running E85 + meth.

Option 2: This is a new option, lovingly referred to as "Spray and Pray", and is equivalent Aquamist flash only safety. With this setting the JB4 assumes you have full methanol flow and enough octane to prevent knock and makes no attempt to drop boost unless methanol falls below your user defined scaling value for 1500ms while boost is greater than 12 psi.

If methanol flow does fall below the flow value you define then a map 4 switch is initiated and the SES light will flash 3 times. Technically this implementation is better than the AM kit becuase AM can only open the wastegates which bleed off boost over the course of a couple of seconds, while the JB4 map switch will instantly close the throttle body, reduce timing, and simultaneously open the wastegate. So boost to the engine is reduced faster during a failsafe trigger. And you are alerted in dash to what has happened.

Note that while we don't suggest option 2 due to its non-integrated nature the benefit here is going to be quicker boost response. When you decide not to worry about spool up knock and whether or not your methanol flow is sufficient for the tuning the car can feel more responsive. It's a bit like burring your head in the sand but for those running E85 + meth its less of a risk than those running pump + meth.

Option 3: This allows you to use map 3 in non-meth or non-safety situations. Absolutely no safety is provided and you get the boost curve you set via the meth additive (menu 8 in dash) regardless of methanol flow. It's a useful custom tuning option as you can slide your boost curve between the two curves on the fly. A 75 additive would give the high curve, a 0 additive the low curve, and anything in between blends them. Those wanting something a little stronger than map 7 could go with say a 70 additive and those wanting something a bit weaker than map 7 could go with say a 60 additive. Lots of options here for non-meth users.

The new firmware is below along with notes on the new FutureUse settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB4 FutureUse options as of 27.8

Meth Safety (was FUB):

0 - Raise boost as a function of meth flow & historic timing (default)
1 - Raise boost as a function of meth flow only
2 - Start at high boost target and reduce IF flow drops below flow level for 1 second under boost.
3 - Start at high boost target and disable all safety systems. Meth flow is completely ignored.

Meth Flow (was FUE):

0 - Meth flows on maps 3, 6, and 7 (default operation)
1 - Meth flows on all maps
2 - Meth flows on map 3 only
3 - Meth is disabled on all maps


FUD:
1 - Disable steering wheel controls.
2 - disable open loop fueling learning.
4 - Output road speed KMH under low fuel pressure.
5 - Output water temp under low fuel pressure
6 - Output high fuel pressure out under low fuel pressure
10 - Lock AFR output to Bank1. Output Bank2 AFR under low fuel pressure.
11 - Output oiltemp under low fuel pressure.
12 - Output bank 1 fuel trims under low fuel pressure.
14 - Output clutch position under low fuel pressure. For troubleshooting NLS.
17 - Open loop calculation as a function of actual boost target rather than delta over stock target.
18 - Drop boost target more aggressively as a function of DTC intervention
19 - Alternative partial throttle mapping algorithm
99 - disable wastegate adaptation.
100 - Use water temp in place of oil temp for warm up safety.

FUA:
1 to 100 - Lock in a differential between DME target and boost as observed by the DME. 0 = default operation. For diagnostic purposes only.

AFR1500:
Set to 1 to enable support for 3.5bar N20 TMAP sensor.

1st/2nd gear traction control. When enabled, hold volume down if you need to disable (for doing a burn out, etc).
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Default 11-16-2013, 11:53 AM



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Cool 11-16-2013, 12:12 PM

Terry will reloading defaults set the correct starting parameters for these changes in default value locations?


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Default 11-16-2013, 12:16 PM

Yes I think so. Because the old FUE default is 100. Which should give the same behavior as 0. And the FUB default is 0.


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Default 11-16-2013, 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Yes I think so. Because the old FUE default is 100. Which should give the same behavior as 0. And the FUB default is 0.
How do I PM you?


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Default 11-16-2013, 12:52 PM

I don't use PM systems. You can always email me, though.


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Default 11-16-2013, 12:57 PM

If we don't use meth, then no need to update correct?
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Default 11-16-2013, 12:58 PM

If you don't use meth and are not interested in the changes discussed in the first post then don't update. Or do. It won't matter as you won't be using any of the settings discussed above.


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Default 11-16-2013, 01:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I don't use PM systems. You can always email me, though.
Email sent!


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Default Blue24 - 11-16-2013, 04:11 PM

Maybe a video can be done showing how to set different boost levels? For example say setting low boost @ 17psi and a higher boost level maybe 27psi just for example purposes. Also what if you want to custom tailer boost taper or the lack of it how do we go about that and use meth? Sorry to be a pain.

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Default 11-16-2013, 04:14 PM

I don't see a "use meth in all maps" option. Am I the only one that uses that? :rofl:
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Cool 11-16-2013, 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by beakmoney
I don't see a "use meth in all maps" option. Am I the only one that uses that? :rofl:
It's there...just some of the locations.... FU(x)'s..... have changed. See below:

I changed the wording somewhat and I hope I am correct in my assumptions.

(FUB) Now Meth Safety Options:

0 - Raise boost as a function of meth flow & historic timing (default)
1 - Raise boost as a function of meth flow only
2 - Start at high boost target and reduce IF flow drops below flow level for 1 second under boost.
3 - Start at high boost target and disable all safety systems. Meth flow is completely ignored.

(FUE) Now Meth Flow Options :
0 - Meth flows on maps 3, 6, and 7 (default operation)
1 - Meth flows on all maps
2 - Meth flows on map 3 only
3 - Meth is disabled on all maps


FUD Some functions moved to below as indicated:
1 - Disable steering wheel controls.
2 - disable open loop fueling learning.
4 - Output road speed KMH under low fuel pressure.
5 - Output water temp under low fuel pressure
6 - Output high fuel pressure out under low fuel pressure
10 - Lock AFR output to Bank1. Output Bank2 AFR under low fuel pressure.
11 - Output oiltemp under low fuel pressure.
12 - Output bank 1 fuel trims under low fuel pressure.
14 - Output clutch position under low fuel pressure. For troubleshooting NLS.
17 - Open loop calculation as a function of actual boost target rather than delta over stock target.
18 - Drop boost target more aggressively as a function of DTC intervention
19 - Alternative partial throttle mapping algorithm
99 - disable wastegate adaptation.
100 - Use water temp in place of oil temp for warm up safety.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 11-16-2013, 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by beakmoney
I don't see a "use meth in all maps" option. Am I the only one that uses that? :rofl:
It's there!


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Default 11-16-2013, 06:04 PM

Hey guys, just made a minor change in the firmware meth targets and reposted. So if you were one of the 14 I saw had downloaded it before this post then sorry, just grab it again.


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Default 11-17-2013, 10:42 PM

I am so confused. Still learning so sorry. What do these acronyms mean and where would I be seeing them (FOB,FOD,FOE,etc.) and where would these options be entered at? I currently run map 3 at 35 meth additive, 40 additive at track with octane booster and higher meth/water ratio. was using laptop to adjust additive but recently discovered menu 9 to make that adjustment.


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Default 11-18-2013, 06:33 AM

It's all in the JB4 interface.
Btw you should be able to safely increase those meth additive values. I used to run 55-65 before RBs. 80% concentration.


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Default 11-18-2013, 08:34 AM

I have asked this question elsewhere but glad this thread is active right now.

What effect does concentration have? Does more meth equal more octane and more H20 more cooling? I mean I know that is simplistic, and both effect advance, but why run 49/51 versus say the 80% Ocean mentions above?

Curious and always learning when I can.


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Cool 11-18-2013, 09:08 AM

From my experiments water gives better timing values than meth.... but meth makes more power than water.

If your looking for max power...... run the lowest amount of water you can while maintaining maximum advance curve....
at the boost you want to run at.

The Avg Ign Retard curve is good for determining the overall advance level.
Just remember lower is better and values below 1.5 are best.


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Last edited by Russell @ BMS; 11-19-2013 at 07:01 PM..
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Default 11-18-2013, 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell @ BMS
From my experiments water gives better timing values than meth.... but meth makes more power than water.

If your looking for max power...... run the lowest amount of water you can while maintaining maximum advance curve....
at the boost you want to run at.

The Ing Adv curve is good for determining the overall advance level.
Just remember lower is better and values below 1.5 are best.
Understood and thanks. Although it just leads me to gain some understanding, but also confusion and now desire to learn more about curves and advances and what role in power...ohhh my head is spinning better slow down...well except in the car......


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Default 11-18-2013, 05:03 PM

^^+1


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Default 11-18-2013, 07:55 PM

Great stuff Terry!


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Default 11-19-2013, 03:44 AM

My current interface version is 9/12/2013
Do we need to update to a newer version of the interface as well?


fuel injection is cool, but i'd rather be blown!
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Cool 11-19-2013, 10:33 AM

Nope.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 11-19-2013, 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell @ BMS
From my experiments water gives better timing values than meth.... but meth makes more power than water.

If your looking for max power...... run the lowest amount of water you can while maintaining maximum advance curve....
at the boost you want to run at.

The Ing Adv curve is good for determining the overall advance level.
Just remember lower is better and values below 1.5 are best.
What about in the winter months.would running a 80/20 mix be much different then 100% meth?its already cold so would think running 100% meth would be best you think?
Another question,with a cm14 nozzle is it OK to run a 80/20 mix or no?is that a too big of a nozzle to use?I'm running a cm14 nozzle with 100% m1 meth.but if I can run better with say a cm10 with a mixture then I would try that.


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Default 11-19-2013, 02:49 PM

Im running 27.7 firmware. Im usually on map 7 for track/racing duty. Would map 3 with a 70 or 75 additive theoretically benefit me and be faster? I run e60-e65 fuel with 70 or 80% meth mixtures (the rest being water)


Current: 2008 e92 335i coupe.

Previous: 2003 Honda Accord V6 coupe: AEM V2, zex 75 wet shot (sold)
Past 1998 acura integra rs: jrsc @ 6 psi and bolt ons.
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