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Default Quick advice on PI setup? - 08-11-2016, 02:20 PM

Can I get some quick advice from Steve or others who have dialed in port injection and hybrid turbos?

Full E85, BMS E85/hybrid/PI backend via MHD
FBO, Inlets, Pure Stage 2 Turbos
Fuel-it PI w/ stage 3 bucket

I'm new to using map6, port injection, etc., Logs so far don't look so great. Specifically, PI spikes initially during spool, trims go way negative, AFR goes rich, HPFP is jumping around... I have ideas of things to change, but decided I'd ask if someone could just steer me in the right direction as the next step of getting things dialed-in. Hoping to get a better handle on things before turning up the boost. Thanks in advance!
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Default 08-11-2016, 02:42 PM

Yeah, and your FOL is already at 0 (probably causing your fp_h weirdness). I'd lower boost just a tad while this gets sorted, as we experiment with these values, being around 17 psi will be a better margin of safety than at 22psi. Then once dialed in, raise boost back up.

My suggestions, raise FOL to 50.

Drop your AFR Bias to 40 above 4.5k RPM.

Take your AFR down to 30 below 4.5k RPM.

Then lets see how the logs look. As you bottom out trims, you are going too rich as well. Definitely more performance to be had as we dial this in.


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Last edited by Jayock; 08-11-2016 at 02:58 PM..
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Default 08-11-2016, 02:59 PM

Update your firmware and verify you are running the current Hybrid_E85_PI flash. That one doesn't look like it is decaying the scalars. If that doesn't look better let me know and if you are ijeos, I'll send you over our flash we used on the dyno last week and we'll see how that looks.

Also verify your secondary is triggering, it doesn't appear to be in the logs.



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Default 08-11-2016, 02:59 PM

Also, you could use some Duty Bias tuning. Below target to start, then above to finish.


--2009 BMW 135i--2016 Nissan Titan XD (Turbo Cummins ISV)--2016 VW Tiguan 2.0Tsi --1988 Beechcraft Bonanza--Suzuki GSX-R 1000--Honda CBR-600RR--

JB4 G5 ISO | MHD | E85 | Fuel-It S3 LPFP / PI | MFactory S3+ Clutch / SMFW / LSD / Mounts | Diff Lock | UUC Tranny Mounts | DwnPipes / Exhaust / FMIC | Chargepipe / Tial | KW V3s | HR Sways | HPA full M3 Suspension | BMS DCI / Oil Cooler Valve / Cowl Filters / 4bar / 2Step / OCC | RB PCV | Stri Gauges | Pole Position 225/265 | Installing: DR 6466ST
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Default 08-11-2016, 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
Update your firmware and verify you are running the current Hybrid_E85_PI flash. That one doesn't look like it is decaying the scalars. If that doesn't look better let me know and if you are ijeos, I'll send you over our flash we used on the dyno last week and we'll see how that looks.

Also verify your secondary is triggering, it doesn't appear to be in the logs.
Listen to this guy before me, please!


--2009 BMW 135i--2016 Nissan Titan XD (Turbo Cummins ISV)--2016 VW Tiguan 2.0Tsi --1988 Beechcraft Bonanza--Suzuki GSX-R 1000--Honda CBR-600RR--

JB4 G5 ISO | MHD | E85 | Fuel-It S3 LPFP / PI | MFactory S3+ Clutch / SMFW / LSD / Mounts | Diff Lock | UUC Tranny Mounts | DwnPipes / Exhaust / FMIC | Chargepipe / Tial | KW V3s | HR Sways | HPA full M3 Suspension | BMS DCI / Oil Cooler Valve / Cowl Filters / 4bar / 2Step / OCC | RB PCV | Stri Gauges | Pole Position 225/265 | Installing: DR 6466ST
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Default 08-11-2016, 03:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
Also verify your secondary is triggering, it doesn't appear to be in the logs.
From what I can see, it looks like it's turning on, unless there's something more specific Steve is looking for.. Verify its triggering and let us know..
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Default 08-11-2016, 03:24 PM

Thanks guys, I'll check the flash. I only just set FOL to zero. Previously it had learned down to 40. Secondary pump is def triggering, I saw marked ifference when I got that working. I know I need some work on duty bias tuning, was hoping that could wait till I sort the Afr weirdness right around spool.


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Default 08-11-2016, 08:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
Also verify your secondary is triggering, it doesn't appear to be in the logs.
Steve, we need to figure out why we are having low fp_L with stage 3. I've been talking to Paul (running Hobbs), OP (not sure if Hobbs or JB4), and me (using JB4 to trigger) that are having low pressure in the 50's with stage 3. Obviously it's not your pumps, but it would be fantastic to diagnose why we are all having this issue. It has to be something simple that we all fckd up during install.


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Default 08-12-2016, 06:29 AM

In both of your logs it never appears to trigger as you can usually see a bump in pressures. I gave you a suggestion via email, try that. If pressures are better, then you know it's not triggering. If it's not better than you need to go looking for another issue such as an issue on the driver's side (FPR, filter, etc), LPFP sensor, or something along those lines.



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Default 08-12-2016, 12:09 PM

So I checked the flash and I already had/have the latest posted (6/1/16 files).
JB4 firmware was 32_2 and according to release notes nothing changed since then that should impact me, but I updated to 32_5 anyway. I did a couple logs, they looked the same.

I am IJEOS so willing to try your latest flash Steve. That dyno last week was impressive! IndoRider@gmail if you want to share

I'm using JB4 to trigger second pump, I'm nearly positive it's triggering because I did my first few pulls after installing PI on maps 2 and 7 before enabling the trigger in the JB4 settings (doh) and pressures were dropping off significantly. Then after enabling the JB4 trigger (>2500rpm and >50 TPS) the pressures would hold steady. I had assumed the decreasing LPFP in the log above was related to trims going max neg and the DME trying to pull out as much fuel as possible while at the same time the PI fuel demand is increasing significantly

Any thoughts on resetting any adaptations? I reset everything after installing new turbos, but not since installing PI...

Should I really have FOL set to zero?


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Default 08-12-2016, 01:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PR3CI5N335i
Steve, we need to figure out why we are having low fp_L with stage 3. I've been talking to Paul (running Hobbs), OP (not sure if Hobbs or JB4), and me (using JB4 to trigger) that are having low pressure in the 50's with stage 3. Obviously it's not your pumps, but it would be fantastic to diagnose why we are all having this issue. It has to be something simple that we all fckd up during install.
+4 or 5 whatever lol

I have never been able to visually see my LPFP go up in logs when WOT and I have it wired up with the Hobbs as well. I checked all connections and even replaced the fuse for the hell of it with no luck.


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Default 08-12-2016, 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBeemah
+4 or 5 whatever lol

I have never been able to visually see my LPFP go up in logs when WOT and I have it wired up with the Hobbs as well. I checked all connections and even replaced the fuse for the hell of it with no luck.
Yup. For the last few weeks I thought it was just me having this issue but obviously not. Steve has said a few times that he doesn't think the pump is turning on but it's pretty obvious that it's turning on. With the trigger disabled the pump pressure is much lower and then when the trigger is enabled the fp_l raises back up to the 50's. It should be 60-70's and it's annoying AF trying to figure out why our stage 3's aren't at this pressure.

Engine off, ign on, pedal to the floor, relay turns on. Pump is flowing. JB4 switches to map 20. Obviously the JB4 is sending the signal to the relay and the relay is triggering the second pump. Either the secondary pump power is weak (doesn't make any sense why it would be) or Steve is saying there's an issue with our fuel lines, filters, idk. I don't see it being any of these since we are all having the same issue. With stage 1 LPFP, E50 and 100% Meth, my fl_l was around 68 @25psi. I don't see me having any issues with my lines, filter, FPR, etc. Terry and Steve have tried figuring this out and we are having no luck. I'm stumped.

And it's not just a JB4 or Hobbs issue. We are having low pressure with both triggers so there's something else going on.


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Default 08-12-2016, 01:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PR3CI5N335i
Yup. For the last few weeks I thought it was just me having this issue but obviously not. Steve has said a few times that he doesn't think the pump is turning on but it's pretty obvious that it's turning on. With the trigger disabled the pump pressure is much lower and then when the trigger is enabled the fp_l raises back up to the 50's. It should be 60-70's and it's annoying AF trying to figure out why our stage 3's aren't at this pressure.

Engine off, ign on, pedal to the floor, relay turns on. Pump is flowing. JB4 switches to map 20. Obviously the JB4 is sending the signal to the relay and the relay is triggering the second pump. Either the secondary pump power is weak (doesn't make any sense why it would be) or Steve is saying there's an issue with our fuel lines, filters, idk. I don't see it being any of these since we are all having the same issue. With stage 1 LPFP, E50 and 100% Meth, my fl_l was around 68 @25psi. I don't see me having any issues with my lines, filter, FPR, etc. Terry and Steve have tried figuring this out and we are having no luck. I'm stumped.

And it's not just a JB4 or Hobbs issue. We are having low pressure with both triggers so there's something else going on.

Yup. At least you can test it without having to hit 15psi or whatever for the Hobbs. Ive shorted the relay to confirm my pump is turn on and I actually drove my car just on the second pump with the cable to the primary controlled by the DME completely off running just on the secondary. The only other issue I am having is my ethanol sensor hasnt read correctly since day one of install. I am wondering if that could somehow have any effect. Do you have the ethanol sensor as well as the others to your knowledge?


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Default 08-12-2016, 02:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PR3CI5N335i
Yup. For the last few weeks I thought it was just me having this issue but obviously not. Steve has said a few times that he doesn't think the pump is turning on but it's pretty obvious that it's turning on. With the trigger disabled the pump pressure is much lower and then when the trigger is enabled the fp_l raises back up to the 50's. It should be 60-70's and it's annoying AF trying to figure out why our stage 3's aren't at this pressure.

Engine off, ign on, pedal to the floor, relay turns on. Pump is flowing. JB4 switches to map 20. Obviously the JB4 is sending the signal to the relay and the relay is triggering the second pump. Either the secondary pump power is weak (doesn't make any sense why it would be) or Steve is saying there's an issue with our fuel lines, filters, idk. I don't see it being any of these since we are all having the same issue. With stage 1 LPFP, E50 and 100% Meth, my fl_l was around 68 @25psi. I don't see me having any issues with my lines, filter, FPR, etc. Terry and Steve have tried figuring this out and we are having no luck. I'm stumped.

And it's not just a JB4 or Hobbs issue. We are having low pressure with both triggers so there's something else going on.

So is everyone with stage 3 lpfp having these issues? Or are some cars fine?

If I understand stage 3 pump configuration properly, they are run in series. Maybe that doesn't work well for these walbro 450s?

If some are running well and logging properly then what's the difference? is the stock fuel line restrictive?

Also have you guys tried running an E% blend to see if the pressure increases?

I'd agree that if you are seeing a pressure increase the secondary is turning on. We can test that with a volt meter, just to be sure.

The other question is maybe there is a bad batch of relays. Could be restricting amperage and causing the pump to run slower.

Just some thoughts. No knocks to anyone here,
Just thinking out loud


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Default 08-12-2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBeemah
The only other issue I am having is my ethanol sensor hasnt read correctly since day one of install. I am wondering if that could somehow have any effect. Do you have the ethanol sensor as well as the others to your knowledge?
I have the sensor. Initially, the reported E_content was not correct, then someone told me I needed to set my meth scaling to 100 (I had never changed it from 60 after disconnecting meth). Now it reports E79 or E80 when I fill with 100% E85 so I think its good. If that's mentioned in the install info I had missed it...


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Default 08-12-2016, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by P1Jay
So is everyone with stage 3 lpfp having these issues? Or are some cars fine?

If I understand stage 3 pump configuration properly, they are run in series. Maybe that doesn't work well for these walbro 450s?

If some are running well and logging properly then what's the difference? is the stock fuel line restrictive?

Also have you guys tried running an E% blend to see if the pressure increases?

I'd agree that if you are seeing a pressure increase the secondary is turning on. We can test that with a volt meter, just to be sure.

The other question is maybe there is a bad batch of relays. Could be restricting amperage and causing the pump to run slower.

Just some thoughts. No knocks to anyone here,
Just thinking out loud
They are in parallel. The output of secondary is T'd into the output of the primary.

Personally, I have all the fuel line upgrades that Fuel-It offers.


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Default 08-13-2016, 12:09 PM

There are a bunch of Stage 3's on cars running as much as 860whp. In Lucas' case his pump was swapped out with the same result so he needs to verify that his secondary is triggering and that he doesn't have another issue such as the filter, stock regulator, cracked filter assembly, or as suggest low power.

Stage 3 is not in series, those pumps are plumbed in parallel.



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Default 08-22-2016, 05:38 PM

Here's a new log if anyone is willing to help.

Recent changes:
I changed FOL from 0 back to 20 (it learned itself up to 23 so far).
I reduced the fuel bias quite a bit over the entire rpm range.
I manually changed FF from about 65 to 55.
I raised menu12 from 2000 to 2600 (not sure if 2000 was even valid, but that's was what it was set to).

Steve - You said you'd be willing to send me your flash. I'd like to try that if you'll send it to the email in my post above. This log is the best out of a recent set. Other logs often show timing pulls on all cylinders in 3rd gear around where boost is going over target.

Most 4th gear only logs generally look decent, but 3rd gear is always underboosting at low rpm and overboosting at high rpm with AFR weirdness around and just after spool.
I read that duty bias tuning should be done in higher gears so I'm hesitant to use that to solve 3rd gear boost issues since boost is decently close to target in 4th.
Fuel enrichment while in 4th gear is usually pretty flat, but it's always large positive slope in 3rd. I feel like the PI added fuel in 3rd gear is not what it should be? Is there something to be tweaked in the flash or AIC6 map?

Thanks in advance.
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Default 08-22-2016, 06:56 PM

new log looks much better.. FP_H is keeping up and FP_L seem to be strong and steady.. only things i don't like are the timing corrections on cylinders 4 & 5, although they could be from the high IAT.. what's the maximum boost you plan on running and any plans to jump on the dyno?
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Default 08-22-2016, 10:05 PM

No problem, just email me at steve@fuel-it.com and I'll send that and the settings over.




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