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Default 09-10-2015, 10:52 AM

I've seen a torque limiter issue pop up from time to time using our ije0s back end flash map current settings. Made a minor tweak to load that seems to have helped. Will forward the change over to OP just for comparison to his hand tuned tables.

I prefer the 1.0 torque/divisor value across the board when trying to hold calculated torque under a cap, and to just alter load directly. Changing the torque to load relationships does the same thing but in a much more confusing and convoluted way.


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Default 09-10-2015, 11:25 AM

Thank you Terry, I really hope this to be solved without the need to lower the load request down to 170


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Default 09-10-2015, 11:31 AM

This is what we're evaluating at the moment. In some cases the divisor may need to go up or down .05 but hopefuly this generally works for most ije0s.
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Default 09-10-2015, 11:40 AM

Thank you, will tr to update and give it a try and see if it works for me


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Default 09-10-2015, 11:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
This is what we're evaluating at the moment. In some cases the divisor may need to go up or down .05 but hopefuly this generally works for most ije0s.
What's so special about those? They are Cobb OTS for Load to Torque and Torque Eff Divisor (Fuel).


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Default 09-10-2015, 03:15 PM

I like leaving those flat, and being able to adjust multiple load rows in the load to torque table so that when running slightly less boost in a different gear, you have higher load values there as well. You can also do this by altering the load points for that map and leaving the map as is, but this way afforded some finer tuning. Multiple ways to do the same thing, but my changes have been working well for me. No gear slips or pops and no timing pulls.

It would be so nice to have msd81 damos. I see tables in MSD80 that might be causing this with limits around 500nm, but can't find em in MSD81.


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Last edited by nyt; 09-10-2015 at 03:21 PM..
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Default 09-19-2015, 04:23 PM

These are the values I ended up with. It keeps torque values higher at lower load levels as well, which is useful for me since I taper boost and limit boost in first and second. This keeps the torque values about as high as they can go without triggering issues on my ije0s 6at xi platform.






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Default 09-19-2015, 05:20 PM

Is the goal of having highest possible reported torque without hitting limits solely for the purpose of keeping AT line pressure high, reducing slip or is there another reason to keep calculated torque high?
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Default 09-19-2015, 08:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsm87
Is the goal of having highest possible reported torque without hitting limits solely for the purpose of keeping AT line pressure high, reducing slip or is there another reason to keep calculated torque high?
That's it. Too low and you have problems staying in gear and with slipping, too high and you hit limiter. It's a very narrow line at higher torque levels.


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Default 09-20-2015, 05:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
That's it. Too low and you have problems staying in gear and with slipping, too high and you hit limiter. It's a very narrow line at higher torque levels.
So to achieve this only involves tweaking the 4 tables above?

Load to Torque limit 1
Torque Eff Divisor (fuel)
Torque reduction factor (RPM)
Load Target

Can you explain what these tables do? I imagine Load target is targeted load at each rpm level and can be left as you have it above. 185 across the board.

p.s. Why are there Load to Torque limit 1,2 and 3?

Thanks


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Default 09-20-2015, 05:38 PM

Load to Torque limit 1 - lookup table, not limiter. translates load and rpm to a torque value
Torque Eff Divisor (fuel) - factor of the calculated torque value based on afr
Torque reduction factor (RPM) - factor of the calculated torque value based on rpm
Load Target - what load level the ECU will try to target. JB4 will keep it below this value slightly.

I don't know why there are 3 load to torque limiter tables. Maybe based on different gear, drive mode, trans, etc? generally they all get set the same.

My approach is to flatten out the factor tables so that only load and rpm will be used to generate the calculated torque values, among the tables we have access to anyway.

I then modify the load axis of the load to torque limit table so that the load target actually has a row to match (185 in this case). I set the values there as high as I could without running into issues, and I boosted the row right before that as well, so it reports higher load values when not running peak boost as well. At this point I'm not having any timing pulls or trans issues related to torque limiters. Ideally jyamona will either figure out the toggle for the torque safety path or map the rest of the limiter tables in MSD81 so we can run higher values here without trouble. The reason for flattening out the fuel eff divisor table is that AFR can fluctuate, and take what would normally be a value under the limiter and cause it to go above.


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Default 09-21-2015, 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
Load to Torque limit 1 - lookup table, not limiter. translates load and rpm to a torque value
Torque Eff Divisor (fuel) - factor of the calculated torque value based on afr
Torque reduction factor (RPM) - factor of the calculated torque value based on rpm
Load Target - what load level the ECU will try to target. JB4 will keep it below this value slightly.

I don't know why there are 3 load to torque limiter tables. Maybe based on different gear, drive mode, trans, etc? generally they all get set the same.

My approach is to flatten out the factor tables so that only load and rpm will be used to generate the calculated torque values, among the tables we have access to anyway.

I then modify the load axis of the load to torque limit table so that the load target actually has a row to match (185 in this case). I set the values there as high as I could without running into issues, and I boosted the row right before that as well, so it reports higher load values when not running peak boost as well. At this point I'm not having any timing pulls or trans issues related to torque limiters. Ideally jyamona will either figure out the toggle for the torque safety path or map the rest of the limiter tables in MSD81 so we can run higher values here without trouble. The reason for flattening out the fuel eff divisor table is that AFR can fluctuate, and take what would normally be a value under the limiter and cause it to go above.
Thanks NYT, I will read this a few more times to try and fully understand it

Think I'm getting it now. Great to know what these tables are doing now.


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Default 09-22-2015, 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
Load to Torque limit 1 - lookup table, not limiter. translates load and rpm to a torque value
Torque Eff Divisor (fuel) - factor of the calculated torque value based on afr
Torque reduction factor (RPM) - factor of the calculated torque value based on rpm
Load Target - what load level the ECU will try to target. JB4 will keep it below this value slightly.

I don't know why there are 3 load to torque limiter tables. Maybe based on different gear, drive mode, trans, etc? generally they all get set the same.

My approach is to flatten out the factor tables so that only load and rpm will be used to generate the calculated torque values, among the tables we have access to anyway.

I then modify the load axis of the load to torque limit table so that the load target actually has a row to match (185 in this case). I set the values there as high as I could without running into issues, and I boosted the row right before that as well, so it reports higher load values when not running peak boost as well. At this point I'm not having any timing pulls or trans issues related to torque limiters. Ideally jyamona will either figure out the toggle for the torque safety path or map the rest of the limiter tables in MSD81 so we can run higher values here without trouble. The reason for flattening out the fuel eff divisor table is that AFR can fluctuate, and take what would normally be a value under the limiter and cause it to go above.
@nyt Thanks again for sharing all this useful knowledge and your tables. I have an AT XI too. And I think there are some stricter limiters on the XI. I'm curious if we have the same exact issue. Mine is strictly a flatline at WOT between 2,000 RPM and 4,000 RPM in 5th gear. Its strictly a 5th gear issue. Did you have this issue in 5th before you fixed it?


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Default 09-22-2015, 09:06 PM

I was seeing it in that rpm range in all gears, now I don't. You should post some logs.


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Default 09-23-2015, 02:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfish123
@nyt Thanks again for sharing all this useful knowledge and your tables. I have an AT XI too. And I think there are some stricter limiters on the XI. I'm curious if we have the same exact issue. Mine is strictly a flatline at WOT between 2,000 RPM and 4,000 RPM in 5th gear. Its strictly a 5th gear issue. Did you have this issue in 5th before you fixed it?
My issue was on the 5th gear only, solved by setting the fuel-eff divisor across the board all to .95 , thanks for Terry now my car running perfectly


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Default 09-23-2015, 10:09 AM

So if I just want my DCT trans to see a higher Torque level then I should modify

Torque Eff Divisor (fuel)

and possibly

Torque reduction factor (RPM)

as well? I think this will be my first experiment.


NYT. I see you have higher values in 'Load to Torque limit' than canned JB4 MHD maps at loads under 220 (I think 220 is load? I may be wrong) but 220 values are pretty much the same. How do you decide how much to tweak values up and down?

Then I see you have the higher Load target but greater Torque reduction factor. From what I read online, I think this was how aggressively Torque is reduced if a certain limit is exceed.


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nyt nyt is offline
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Default 09-23-2015, 12:51 PM

torque reduction factor (RPM) is a factor of the calculated torque output based on rpm. I flatten this out, as well as the AFR factor table, so they no longer cause deviations in the calculated torque based on afr or rpm. I have the load axis changed in the load to torque table as well as different values there that keep my calculated torque values under the limits while being as high as possible without issues. I increase the load column before the targeted as well, so that when running lower boost, it also sees increased calculated torque.


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Default 09-23-2015, 12:52 PM

For me from the latest 09/13/15 MHD BMS flash I only changed the Torque Eff Divisor (fuel)
all to 0.95 and that solved my issue on the 5th gear


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mfish123 mfish123 is offline
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Default Please help! I hate this 5th gear flatline :( - Logs included - 09-23-2015, 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
I was seeing it in that rpm range in all gears, now I don't. You should post some logs.
Thanks for all the help. Again, I'm MHD flash only....

So on my car there is a direct correlation of hitting the torque limit when actual load gets too close to load requested. For whatever reason actual load reports higher in 5th gear than any other gear even though the actual torque reported is lower than the other gears. There must be some hidden table or just one I'm not aware of that changes the actual load based on the gear.

I can see way higher actual torque reported in 4th gear but lower corresponding reported actual load as opposed to the correlation of actual torque to actual load in 5th gear. I'm half tempted to change the 5th gear ratio calculation to the same value of the 4th gear calculation to see if that clears it up. But who knows what negative side effects I'll get from that.

Please see the 6 datalogs I uploaded today. I provided specific detail as to what tables where modded and to what values. There are 3 different maps with different tables modified and I did one 5th and one 4th gear pull with each map.

http://***********/u/mfish123/

I'll be grateful if anyone can help me squash this once and for all.


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Default 09-23-2015, 04:23 PM

Try running the alpina coding in your tcu and see if its any better. If not, try the values from the following tables I posted above here. Leave your load targets alone.

Load to Torque limit 1 through 3
Torque Eff Divisor (fuel)
Torque reduction factor (RPM)


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Default 09-23-2015, 05:29 PM

On the 5th gear seems the car will have AFR on the 13 range while on the 4th gear it's still on 12 I guess that's why the Torque Eff Divisor (fuel) which make difference.

That's just a guess, I'm not the expert


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Default 09-24-2015, 06:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
....
I don't know why there are 3 load to torque limiter tables. Maybe based on different gear, drive mode, trans, etc? generally they all get set the same.

....

Ideally jyamona will either figure out the toggle for the torque safety path or map the rest of the limiter tables in MSD81 so we can run higher values here without trouble. The reason for flattening out the fuel eff divisor table is that AFR can fluctuate, and take what would normally be a value under the limiter and cause it to go above.
The 3 load to torque tables correspond to the 3 different possible fueling modes the DME can run in (Homogeneous, Stratified, and H+S). I haven't seen any evidence that production cars use anything other than straight up homogeneous mode, though I plan to do some further investigating.

Just make sure to always set all 3 tables the same!


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Unhappy 09-24-2015, 07:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
The 3 load to torque tables correspond to the 3 different possible fueling modes the DME can run in (Homogeneous, Stratified, and H+S). I haven't seen any evidence that production cars use anything other than straight up homogeneous mode, though I plan to do some further investigating.

Just make sure to always set all 3 tables the same!
I actually did a bunch of testing today. I lowered the bottom 3 load rows (didn't change break points) in the 2,000 - 4,000 RPM range by 15% (multiplied by 0.85). I did this on an isolated basis on each of the load to torque tables and left the other ones untouched. Doing this to load to torque 1 and 2 had no affect on the flatline. Doing this on load to torque 3 did eliminate the flatline. load to torque 3 seems to be the same table that Cobb has. Problem is doing this screws up the throttle mapping and its a real PITA to try and manipulate the requested torque values to restore drivability.


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Default 09-24-2015, 07:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
Try running the alpina coding in your tcu and see if its any better. If not, try the values from the following tables I posted above here. Leave your load targets alone.

Load to Torque limit 1 through 3
Torque Eff Divisor (fuel)
Torque reduction factor (RPM)
I did try your values just for torque eff divisor (fuel) and torque reduction factor (rpm) but they didn't help. I can try your load to torque limit values in conjuntion with those 2 other tables, but your values look higher and the only thing that has helped me thus far has been lowering load to torque. I have ran Alpina in the past (HATE D mode). With Alpina I still had to lower load to torque, just not as much as I have to now. Lowering load to torque screws up my throttle mapping big time. Thank you for the suggestions.


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Last edited by mfish123; 09-24-2015 at 07:43 PM..
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Default 09-24-2015, 08:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfish123
I did try your values just for torque eff divisor (fuel) and torque reduction factor (rpm) but they didn't help. I can try your load to torque limit values in conjuntion with those 2 other tables, but your values look higher and the only thing that has helped me thus far has been lowering load to torque. I have ran Alpina in the past (HATE D mode). With Alpina I still had to lower load to torque, just not as much as I have to now. Lowering load to torque screws up my throttle mapping big time. Thank you for the suggestions.
Just using part of the values will not work. I change the load axis in the load to torque table so it's not directly comparable.


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