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nyt nyt is offline
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Angry Timing pulls unrelated to knock (torque?) - 08-30-2015, 03:05 PM

I'm seeing timing pulls unrelated to knock. Anyone have an idea where to start to fix this?

I'm running a map that was initially based off the bms mhd E85 maps. Running a good bit of boost now and seeing likely torque related pulls.


log attached with corrections being logged instead of absolute values. These pulls affect all cylinders at the same time and the same amount. I don't really see these over 4krpm. I've tried a few changes already but can't get rid of it. lower load targets seem to help a little, but would prefer to avoid that since 6at.


Attached Files
File Type: csv 2015-08-30 17_06_34.csv (4.4 KB, 166 views)
File Type: csv 2015-08-30 20_40_29.csv (2.8 KB, 156 views)


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Last edited by nyt; 08-30-2015 at 06:10 PM..
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Default 08-30-2015, 03:36 PM

Do you have TC all the way off?

Post a datazap link


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nyt nyt is offline
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Default 08-30-2015, 03:46 PM

yep, long pressed to disable


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Default 08-31-2015, 10:09 AM

datazap: http://***********/u/nyt/log-1441040919?log=0&data=1-4


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Default 08-31-2015, 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
Hmm, that's interesting. It looks like a traction control event. I haven't had that issue with TC off (I'm using the normal tq tables). Which flash map did you start with?


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Default 08-31-2015, 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Leopard
Hmm, that's interesting. It looks like a traction control event. I haven't had that issue with TC off (I'm using the normal tq tables). Which flash map did you start with?
That was from a roll in 4th. I didn't notice any traction events and rpm seems to climb smoothly. This is an XI so traction events aren't that likely.

I started with the BMS MHD E85 JB4 backend map. It has some fuel/timing/vanos/other small changes, but nothing that should have influenced that. I've been trying to tweak it to get rid of this with no luck for a while. Lowering load from 185 to 170 seemed to help a bit, but I was still seeing this behavior, but not as bad. I'd prefer not to lower the load any further. I'm going to test with higher loads and see if it changes anything, then may try bumping up the load to torque table and see how that affects things. I'm really just guessing at this point, hoping someone has run into this and knows a fix.


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Default 08-31-2015, 10:22 PM

kind of looks like mine recently but it doesn't do it all the time. This is a lower additive and seems like it happens in 3rd gear more than 4th. I am hoping changing plugs this week will solve it. I was just about to go get her on the dyno too, setbacks suck oh well I will keep you updated if I find a solution.
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Default 09-02-2015, 12:13 PM

try to log all cylinders timing.

there is something wrong in your bin.
send it to me so I can check it.


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nyt nyt is offline
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Default 09-02-2015, 01:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
try to log all cylinders timing.

there is something wrong in your bin.
send it to me so I can check it.
I have logged all cylinders. I changed to this to see if it was a knock event and if there was corrections being logged, but there aren't during these events.


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Default 09-02-2015, 01:26 PM

Ok
Raw timing is a better choice.
In your logs, we don't know if it's the same for all cylinders.


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Default 09-02-2015, 02:05 PM

bin sent back.
2 torque tables tweaked.
Let me know if it fix your issue.


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Default 09-02-2015, 06:19 PM

No joy. I took videos since the logs don't really do it justice. You can hear exactly what's happening.

Look at torque in the attached log its all over the place

This doesn't happens when load target is dropped to 170, maybe a small single timing pull during peak torque.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi_hrnsNsyo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQy_EAEcWH0 (pardon the groceries sliding around at the start)
Attached Files
File Type: csv 2015-09-02 20_46_43.csv (5.0 KB, 142 views)


2010 335ix - speedtech 6466g2, cams, ported head, built bottom end, 7.5in hd ic, jb4, pi, fuel-it stg3, upgraded 6hp21+cooler, pr coils

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Default 09-02-2015, 07:16 PM

test1 - adjusting torque limiter 3, this did nothing

test2 - increasing the load to torque limit table, which doesn't really seem to be a limiter table, increased logged torque values which triggered this even sooner.

Does anyone have an ije0s map they're using and targeting over 20psi of boost with load targets of 210 or so that I can compare this to? I think I've run through all the tables I can to try to fix this without lowering the perceived torque levels. I can bring these down either by lowering the load target, the load to torque table, or the torque efficiency divisors. I'd prefer a proper workaround so that the transmission receives the correct torque values.


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Default 09-03-2015, 12:59 AM

it seems that your car doesn't like your tweaked BMS MHD bin.
I've sent you a V2 bin.


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Default 09-03-2015, 06:10 AM

Screenshot your Torque Monitor Max Difference table please, I think that is your issue.


Enjoying the new tables discovered and the XDF progress made? if you'd like. Every bit is appreciated!
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Default 09-03-2015, 06:15 AM

already maxed at 376 (FF) for all cells.
still waiting results from V2 bin.


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Default 09-04-2015, 09:36 AM

@trebila got it with one of the changes in the last bin he sent over. I'm going to narrow it down further this weekend, and try to get you that dwell info @jyamona.


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Default 09-04-2015, 09:38 AM

If anyone can help solve it those guys can. I suspect the trans is requesting the timing drop but I can't imagine why. Be sure to post whatever the fix was when you know.


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Default 09-04-2015, 02:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyt
@trebila got it with one of the changes in the last bin he sent over. I'm going to narrow it down further this weekend, and try to get you that dwell info @jyamona.
great


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Default 09-04-2015, 04:32 PM

Having same issue on my 2009 6AT with the MHD BMS race flash when my load targets on the default race flash tables on 185 and only going on high speed pulls over 200km/h and load reach the 185, now running it on values of 170 instead of 185 with the help of Terry and that solved my issue but seems it reduced my pull power...

Would love to know if any discovered the issue or real solution


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Default 09-04-2015, 06:24 PM

Is this the same 6at to limit issue I've had mostly in 4th gear? Rb turbos 2010 ijeos ecu. My tuner fixed it but don't know how, maybe cut power.



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Default 09-04-2015, 11:04 PM

Likely same issue. I'll be narrowing this down on Saturday and posting the findings.


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Default 09-05-2015, 12:01 PM

In the old days, when you saw a timing drop at onset like that, it was usually because you were overshooting load. Times have changed, so take my observation with a grain of salt.


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Default 09-05-2015, 01:20 PM

Unfortunately I spoke too soon. After testing changes for a couple of hours today, and then finally ending up testing the original map I thought fixed, it's clear it isn't. Some of the changes made just lowered the apparent torque and masked the issue.

@terry and @jyamona, since you guys have access to damos files, is it possible there are other torque limit tables that haven't been mapped yet in the xdf's that could be causing this? Taking the JB4 MHD E85 map and setting the load targets to 210 across the board make this real obvious on this car, which is ije0s 6at xi.

Note, this is difference mode, just showing the difference of the values between compared maps.



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Last edited by nyt; 09-05-2015 at 01:32 PM..
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Default 09-05-2015, 02:25 PM

here is the log



you hit a torque limiter (torque is flatlining in the log) as soon as your actual load is above 195, mainly because your AFR are pretty lean when it occurs (AFR 13).
you have several options:
1) run richer AFR targets
2) or tweak the torque effective divisor fuel
3) lower the load to torque values.

I sent you a bin with option 3, just to check if it fix your issue.


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