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Default Knock tables - 05-17-2015, 09:21 PM

Hey guys,

It turns out a flash tuner friend of mine has access to the DAMOS files which I've been browsing through to get a better grasp of this false knock issue issue many of us are dealing with. Specifically, looking for high leverage tables we might port over to the TunerPro XDF files.

Anyway if you're a tuning nerd like myself here are a couple of interesting screen shots that shed a lot of light in to complication of the factory knock suppression system. Particularly interesting is it appears cylinders 5 and 6 which have a higher tendency of timing pull have different knock factors associated with them.
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Default 05-17-2015, 09:26 PM

Progress


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Default 05-17-2015, 09:26 PM

Here we go! This is very interesting especially Cylinder 5/6 stuff being that we have had noisy cylinder 5 issues for a while now. This and other potential tables should make the N54 very interesting this coming year. Hopefully some positive for the AT guys as well. Thanks for the interesting post Terry

P.S. is this related to anything jyamona or MHD is doing or a completely independent source?
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Default 05-17-2015, 09:32 PM

I haven't really been following their work on knock tables but all the flash table info comes from the same ultimate source so I imagine so.

The most interesting table to me is the knock weight factor by IAT and coolant. It never before occurred to me that knock feedback is mapped on intake temperatures. Makes perfect sense though. I bet that is why we see more false knock now with port injection than we used to with meth. Meth kept those IATs lowers thus a lower weighted factor and less false knock. The tables above are actually from i4a0s or some older MSD80 version. We'll have to get it mapped out in ije0s and tested. But in the mean time I'll definitely be testing clamping the IAT signal low.


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Default 05-17-2015, 09:35 PM

I think he was referring to the work that Jake (jyamona) is doing which is only slightly tied in with MHD if I'm not mistaken. Hopefully we'll get some updates soon.


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Default 05-17-2015, 09:40 PM

No, I fly solo on stuff most of the time. Not a good collaborative worker.

But identifying this single high leverage table may be just the break through we've all been waiting for.


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Default 05-17-2015, 10:07 PM

It'd be interesting to know the "why" on the cyl 5 & 6 setup.
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Default 05-17-2015, 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
No, I fly solo on stuff most of the time. Not a good collaborative worker.

But identifying this single high leverage table may be just the break through we've all been waiting for.
Let me know when. Im ready for testing Terry.


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Default 05-17-2015, 11:34 PM

I sent to Jake few month ago the Damos file he's working on.
Few month ago, I already found those knock tables.

Weird thing is they're mapped on MAF vs RPM.


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Default 05-18-2015, 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
No, I fly solo on stuff most of the time. Not a good collaborative worker.

But identifying this single high leverage table may be just the break through we've all been waiting for.
I hope you're right
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Default 05-18-2015, 04:31 AM

Knock tables should be edited only if you don't have stock internal anymore.
With stock internals, no need to tweak them, and I higly recommend not to change them.
If you have knock related timing drops with stock internals, lowering the knock sensitivity is the wrong way to fix this and the best way to blow your engine.


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Default 05-18-2015, 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I haven't really been following their work on knock tables but all the flash table info comes from the same ultimate source so I imagine so.

The most interesting table to me is the knock weight factor by IAT and coolant. It never before occurred to me that knock feedback is mapped on intake temperatures. Makes perfect sense though. I bet that is why we see more false knock now with port injection than we used to with meth. Meth kept those IATs lowers thus a lower weighted factor and less false knock. The tables above are actually from i4a0s or some older MSD80 version. We'll have to get it mapped out in ije0s and tested. But in the mean time I'll definitely be testing clamping the IAT signal low.
The problem is this MSD80 DAMOS file is from a pre-production ECU. I don't believe it will be possible to map it to an IJE0S or an I8A0S simply because too much has changed. Plus, the DAMOS in the project was applied to a reduced filesize bin containing just the table data, no logic. You generally need the DAMOS + a Funktionsrahmen to have the full picture. I ran many processes for hours and hours to try and map the DAMOS to my IJE0S bin, including the built in WinOLS offset calculator, with no luck. It is unable to match any of the 3D tables. It thinks it matches the 2D and 1D tables, simply because it does know any better, but it is incorrect.

Terry, I got your email but was on vacation and didn't have a chance to respond. I also have an MSD85 DAMOS that is more fleshed out than the MSD80 (lots of tables have no data, or all 0'ed out). I use a combination of the two, along with a somewhat manual search / code process to try and find the what I need in my IJE0S bin.

I have the address for the Knock Factor tables, just haven't been able to find the MAF axis. But as trebila said, these should probably be left alone. I can find most fairly quickly now, just need some suggestions of what would be best to have. If you'd like to list a few here and I can find them in IJE0S, or email me, either way!
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Default 05-18-2015, 08:32 AM

no surprises here on 5&6 having different factors, they run the hottest and are most susceptible to knock

another win for meth vs ethanol debate


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Default 05-18-2015, 08:34 AM

I say clam the iat signal and the dme value for maf, should help big time.
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Default 05-18-2015, 08:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TT-Tom
I say clam the iat signal and the dme value for maf, should help big time.
You can't clamp the DME MAF signal, it is a calculated value internal to the DME...there is no MAF sensor Besides, even if there were that is a terrible idea as MANY tables are indexed on this "MAF" value.

IAT clamp is a good test though.
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Default 05-18-2015, 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
Knock tables should be edited only if you don't have stock internal anymore.
With stock internals, no need to tweak them, and I higly recommend not to change them.
If you have knock related timing drops with stock internals, lowering the knock sensitivity is the wrong way to fix this and the best way to blow your engine.
This thread is for tuners to discuss how to interpret and use the data. Not for those unfamiliar with the consequences...

But whether you dampen knock by running an artificially low load target which triggers an artificially low knock table reference, or you modify these tables manually, the net result is the same. We've all been altering knock response behavior from stock for years by changing those load targets. We've always had the best results as far as timing goes running a very low load target, like 3psi, and while we always suspected why that was now we know.

The gears are still turning as I work to interpret the actual table values and what they represent. Particularly the knock factor table which seems to be the key. I presume a lower number means a higher threshold before knock sensor noise is considered knock. Values tend to go up as a function of airflow and slightly down as a function of RPM peaking around peak torque. Which seems logical. But what I don't get is why at say 3500rpm, 321mg, the value is higher than say 3500rpm, 958mg. Why ramp up knock sensitivity at peak toque, low airflow?

EDIT: Just had the thought that they ramped up timing in this low load midrange area very aggressively to improve response and improve fuel economy. And then programmed in a more aggressive knock response in that area to match. Makes sense.


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Default 05-18-2015, 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
You can't clamp the DME MAF signal, it is a calculated value internal to the DME...there is no MAF sensor Besides, even if there were that is a terrible idea as MANY tables are indexed on this "MAF" value.

IAT clamp is a good test though.
Well in a way youre clamping maf values by running low load and using s piggyback, so I'd say it works pretty well for most of us 😜.
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Default 05-18-2015, 08:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
I have the address for the Knock Factor tables, just haven't been able to find the MAF axis. But as trebila said, these should probably be left alone. I can find most fairly quickly now, just need some suggestions of what would be best to have. If you'd like to list a few here and I can find them in IJE0S, or email me, either way!
I think what you'd want to work on is altering the values of the knock factor table. Do the constants here match up in ije0s? Ije0s seems to have a much more aggressive knock feedback tuning than say earlier MSD80 versions so I'd be interested to know whether that is the result of changes to the knock factor table or others.


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Default 05-18-2015, 08:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TT-Tom
Well in a way youre clamping maf values by running low load and using s piggyback, so I'd say it works pretty well for most of us ��.
Even the flash maps all alter the load to torque relationships which effect the calculated MAF. It's just a matter of altering things to provide the most amount of desired effect with the least amount of undesired effect.


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Default 05-18-2015, 09:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
This thread is for tuners to discuss how to interpret and use the data. Not for those unfamiliar with the consequences...

But whether you dampen knock by running an artificially low load target which triggers an artificially low knock table reference, or you modify these tables manually, the net result is the same. We've all been altering knock response behavior from stock for years by changing those load targets. We've always had the best results as far as timing goes running a very low load target, like 3psi, and while we always suspected why that was now we know.

The gears are still turning as I work to interpret the actual table values and what they represent. Particularly the knock factor table which seems to be the key. I presume a lower number means a higher threshold before knock sensor noise is considered knock. Values tend to go up as a function of airflow and slightly down as a function of RPM peaking around peak torque. Which seems logical. But what I don't get is why at say 3500rpm, 321mg, the value is higher than say 3500rpm, 958mg. Why ramp up knock sensitivity at peak toque, low airflow?
My post was not for you, but for those who already think: "hey, great, I'm going to lower the knock sensitivity table, so I won't get timing drops anymore" whereas the issue is elsewhere...

right now, we don't know if knock tables are load related or not.


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Default 05-18-2015, 09:34 AM

Load is just another way to express mass airflow.


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Default 05-18-2015, 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I think what you'd want to work on is altering the values of the knock factor table. Do the constants here match up in ije0s? Ije0s seems to have a much more aggressive knock feedback tuning than say earlier MSD80 versions so I'd be interested to know whether that is the result of changes to the knock factor table or others.
Here's a screenshot of the IJE0S values, looks like they are a bit different.

edit: nevermind, they are the same. I just need to fix the row / column major minor of the definition.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by jyamona; 05-18-2015 at 09:37 AM.. Reason: correction
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Default 05-18-2015, 09:37 AM

How confident are you that they are properly mapped? If you change the values slightly and load them to the car does it operate somewhat normally?


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Default 05-18-2015, 09:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
How confident are you that they are properly mapped? If you change the values slightly and load them to the car does it operate somewhat normally?
See my edit above. I am 100% confident they are correct, I just needed to change the row/column major order, then they line up. A lot of the tables are weird like that, kind of annoying. Especially combined with them using little endian for everything lol.
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Default 05-18-2015, 09:42 AM

What is strange is they don't seem to progressively work up to higher numbers as mass airflow increases. They peak around the middle and decay at low and high airmass. Doesn't really make sense to me.


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