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Default 05-04-2010, 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
I have a special deep plug socket already it's probably the same one as I've used it for many other cars, but knowing the size of the hex I could confirm so I don't end up in a pinch haha.
14 mm
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Default 05-04-2010, 01:44 PM

And 12-point...
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Default 05-04-2010, 04:15 PM

And thin walled.
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ultimateracing 335 ultimateracing 335 is offline
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Default 05-04-2010, 04:50 PM

Im dreaming of Turbos!!!!
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Default 05-05-2010, 12:26 AM

ha. well it looks like I will need to order one just to be safe... the one I have is 16mm so I am left with just other traditional deep well sockets. hopefully I can find one that isnt backordered.
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Default 05-05-2010, 06:39 AM

We had ambient temps upward of 80* yesterday, humid/muggy. My IATs are through the roof, thereofore the stock Intercooler has to go... not to mention possibly being a big flow restriction causing my turbos to work harder than they really need to be working. I think we all knew it may come to it, but I personally was hoping it wouldnt be this bad. On full dead stop pulls at ~16psi, I am seeing rapidly increasing IATs in the 170* range for the majority of a pull and increasing to 180* at the middle/top of third. The car is laying down big time, whereas it pulls like a freight train when I am hitting it just after cruising (and IATs are sitting at nearly ambient) or when just getting in it in the morning. I am also seeing IATs at 130* just from sitting and idling, although that could be normal no matter what since I am not moving in traffic/etc.

That said, I definitely need to get rid of this stock unit... despite having bigger more efficient turbos I feel its really heatsoaking regardless and killing my IATs. I need this thing maintaining 120* or less IATs. Next move is installing an Intercooler, pronto, only to hope it cures this dilemna.

I currently have the Helix FMIC, but am also considering looking into the AMS unit.

Id like to hear what you all have to think about the 2?

The Helix looks like a nicer core, but Im not a big fan of the size/weight nor the end tank design. It has 2.25" inlet/outlet. The AMS looks like a smaller core, but the end tanks look very nice and free flowing. It has a 3" inlet/outlet. Im not sure what size the stock inlet and outlet diameters were?

What do you all think?
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bnk bnk is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 06:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
I currently have the Helix FMIC, but am also considering looking into the AMS unit.

Id like to hear what you all have to think about the 2?

The Helix looks like a nicer core, but Im not a big fan of the size/weight nor the end tank design. It has 2.25" inlet/outlet. The AMS looks like a smaller core, but the end tanks look very nice and free flowing. It has a 3" inlet/outlet. Im not sure what size the stock inlet and outlet diameters were?

What do you all think?
Rob,
I remember the stock being less than 2". Horsepowerfreaks posted a thorough info about it being more than enough, so they did not upgrade it for their intercooler.

In another forum there is a thread about the IATs of various intercoolers at pulls over a couple gear changes. Out of those, Helix is the best. I cannot see how you could reach lower IATs by AMS unit when compared to Helix unit. There are two reasons for that, AMS has smaller frontal area and less mass. You need the mass in the intercooler to fight against the increase in the heat. Lastly, you have the Helix already, might be quicker to go with what you have - in addition to it being better...
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Default 05-05-2010, 06:57 AM

I have helix and it is a great intercooler. You already have the helix there would be no point to order another intercooler. The larger surface area/core volume is what you are looking for anywase as far as heat reduction goes.
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Default 05-05-2010, 07:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnk
Rob,
I remember the stock being less than 2". Horsepowerfreaks posted a thorough info about it being more than enough, so they did not upgrade it for their intercooler.

In another forum there is a thread about the IATs of various intercoolers at pulls over a couple gear changes. Out of those, Helix is the best. I cannot see how you could reach lower IATs by AMS unit when compared to Helix unit. There are two reasons for that, AMS has smaller frontal area and less mass. You need the mass in the intercooler to fight against the increase in the heat. Lastly, you have the Helix already, might be quicker to go with what you have - in addition to it being better...
HPF was referring to lower boost levels and honestly I don't agree with their statement. They now offer their IC with the larger inlet/oulet as an option I think.
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Default 05-05-2010, 07:21 AM

I think you can't go wrong with either IC. I have the AMS and it's worked well, lots of people love their Helix's... If you already have the Helix just use that


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Default 05-05-2010, 07:23 AM

I am also concerned about pressure drop and overall flow potential of the cores/endtanks, any comments on this (I have limited Internet access and can not research this myself). I can't help but love the end tanks on the AMS unit.

Also, those with the helix... It is heavy. Did u use any extra support or did you only use the 2 factory screws? Seems like it maybe too much for only those 2 screws going into plastic.
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Default 05-05-2010, 07:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
I am also concerned about pressure drop and overall flow potential of the cores/endtanks, any comments on this (I have limited Internet access and can not research this myself). I can't help but love the end tanks on the AMS unit.

Also, those with the helix... It is heavy. Did u use any extra support or did you only use the 2 factory screws? Seems like it maybe too much for only those 2 screws going into plastic.
Rob, if it is cast end tanks you want I believe the AMS and HPF have them. I put down about as much horsepower as anyone in the world with the N54 and I am not sure the cast end tank argument and flow concerns are valid. I think you should choose your core based on the best cooling and lowest pressure drop.
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bnk bnk is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 07:53 AM

I don't agree with HPF either, but I meant that if even the restrictive stock O- ring connectors was considered doable, Helix cannot be bad since it removes them and thus upgrades the bottleneck.

Helix has cast end tanks and upgraded outlet and inlet. AMS end tanks look even better, but the trade off is having less frontal area.

Larger diameter charge pipe might be better, but then it would make sense to go full 3" all the way. The gains would depend on the power level. Power levels achievable without meth, I don't think you gain much by full 3" charge pipe. I wonder can you somehow make Helix in/out connections to 3". Does anyone know? Also, stock charge pipe is quite cumbersome from FMIC exit, and I wonder if that can be straightened and replaced if that is what you were thinking?

In any case, I would put Helix on since you have it, and there is no data that would show any other FMIC to be better.

Helix core pressure drop spec is .5psi at 450hp(600cfm) airflow. So, it flows a lot better than stock.
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Default 05-05-2010, 08:13 AM

I actually was going to try to get some measurements tonight on the helix inlet/outlet vs the stock connections. For some reason I feel the stock plumbing to/from the helix are bigger. The Helix ID's are ~2.2" IIRC. If the stock plumbing is bigger, ie. 2.75" (just a guess); I'd definitely want to make them match and surely the helix could be modified. Hopefully I can get the data tonight, and also figure out how to support the weight with additional mounting brackets- don't like the idea of just using those 2 screws
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Default 05-05-2010, 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
I actually was going to try to get some measurements tonight on the helix inlet/outlet vs the stock connections. For some reason I feel the stock plumbing to/from the helix are bigger. The Helix ID's are ~2.2" IIRC. If the stock plumbing is bigger, ie. 2.75" (just a guess); I'd definitely want to make them match and surely the helix could be modified. Hopefully I can get the data tonight, and also figure out how to support the weight with additional mounting brackets- don't like the idea of just using those 2 screws
Believe it or not, I do not mind the delay.
A your tinkering and research (lime on your iC) will reap benifits for all.

Also, I hope you found your spark plug socket !


.


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Default 05-05-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
We had ambient temps upward of 80* yesterday, humid/muggy. My IATs are through the roof, thereofore the stock Intercooler has to go... not to mention possibly being a big flow restriction causing my turbos to work harder than they really need to be working. I think we all knew it may come to it, but I personally was hoping it wouldnt be this bad. On full dead stop pulls at ~16psi, I am seeing rapidly increasing IATs in the 170* range for the majority of a pull and increasing to 180* at the middle/top of third. The car is laying down big time, whereas it pulls like a freight train when I am hitting it just after cruising (and IATs are sitting at nearly ambient) or when just getting in it in the morning. I am also seeing IATs at 130* just from sitting and idling, although that could be normal no matter what since I am not moving in traffic/etc.

That said, I definitely need to get rid of this stock unit... despite having bigger more efficient turbos I feel its really heatsoaking regardless and killing my IATs. I need this thing maintaining 120* or less IATs. Next move is installing an Intercooler, pronto, only to hope it cures this dilemna.

I currently have the Helix FMIC, but am also considering looking into the AMS unit.

Id like to hear what you all have to think about the 2?

The Helix looks like a nicer core, but Im not a big fan of the size/weight nor the end tank design. It has 2.25" inlet/outlet. The AMS looks like a smaller core, but the end tanks look very nice and free flowing. It has a 3" inlet/outlet. Im not sure what size the stock inlet and outlet diameters were?

What do you all think?

What are the IAT on the stock turbo in the same Ambient/humidity?

I thought a more efficient turbo would see past the inefficient intercooler?
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Default 05-05-2010, 10:49 AM

i think that if there was an issue with weight and 2 screws fitment of the helix someone would have already reported it. There are plenty of people with the Helix on that did many miles without issues.


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Default 05-05-2010, 11:03 AM

I'm really happy with the AMS unit also. I havent had the chance to log Iat's yet, but AMS puts out some of the best products around for high HP applications, as does HPF.


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Default 05-05-2010, 11:48 AM

Good question and something I'd like to see as well. Anyone pushing a high stock turbo map with the oem intercooler with hotter ambients have a log of a 0-120mph pull I'd love to see it. When even just idling in rush hour traffic, not moving, I'm seeing iAT's of 120-130*. Once it gets hotter, It seems very hard for my IC to shed heat even when at cruising speed and not under boost. More efficient or not, these turbos are still pushing heat for sure in these hot temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick
What are the IAT on the stock turbo in the same Ambient/humidity?

I thought a more efficient turbo would see past the inefficient intercooler?
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CBR335 CBR335 is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
Good question and something I'd like to see as well. Anyone pushing a high stock turbo map with the oem intercooler with hotter ambients have a log of a 0-120mph pull I'd love to see it. When even just idling in rush hour traffic, not moving, I'm seeing iAT's of 120-130*. Once it gets hotter, It seems very hard for my IC to shed heat even when at cruising speed and not under boost. More efficient or not, these turbos are still pushing heat for sure in these hot temps.
Rob, IATs of 100-120 when in stop and go traffic at stock boost levels are totally normal with the DCI. With the stock airbox in hevy traffic, the IATs will be a bit lower when not under boost. (usually 90-100 degrees). Either way, the stock IC will heatsoak.

At speed with the DCI, however, I usually see +10 to 15 degrees over ambient cruising down the freeway and under high boost you will see 140 degrees and up easily after two gears at 15-16 psi.

The stock IC really sucks and need a lot of air to shed heat. The upgraded units are far, far superior. I use methanol to solve the problem, but it does nothing for IAT supression when not under boost and even methanol injection can't control IATs for long under high boost and four gears of WOT.
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Default 05-05-2010, 12:27 PM

Forgot to ask:
does anyone know how Rob's "high" and "sky rocketing" iats compare to a set of stock turbos and stock IC running higher maps?

.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
We had ambient temps upward of 80* yesterday, humid/muggy. My IATs are through the roof, thereofore the stock Intercooler has to go... not to mention possibly being a big flow restriction causing my turbos to work harder than they really need to be working. I think we all knew it may come to it, but I personally was hoping it wouldnt be this bad. On full dead stop pulls at ~16psi, I am seeing rapidly increasing IATs in the 170* range for the majority of a pull and increasing to 180* at the middle/top of third. The car is laying down big time, whereas it pulls like a freight train when I am hitting it just after cruising (and IATs are sitting at nearly ambient) or when just getting in it in the morning. I am also seeing IATs at 130* just from sitting and idling, although that could be normal no matter what since I am not moving in traffic/etc.

That said, I definitely need to get rid of this stock unit... despite having bigger more efficient turbos I feel its really heatsoaking regardless and killing my IATs. I need this thing maintaining 120* or less IATs. Next move is installing an Intercooler, pronto, only to hope it cures this dilemna.

I currently have the Helix FMIC, but am also considering looking into the AMS unit.

Id like to hear what you all have to think about the 2?

The Helix looks like a nicer core, but Im not a big fan of the size/weight nor the end tank design. It has 2.25" inlet/outlet. The AMS looks like a smaller core, but the end tanks look very nice and free flowing. It has a 3" inlet/outlet. Im not sure what size the stock inlet and outlet diameters were?

What do you all think?


if your car isn't scary - it's just not fast enough !
JB3 2.0 beta / BMS Tuning Gauge / RPI IC / UR non catted *** / UR CAI / Quiaife LSD / Snow Methanol Injection / VK Oil Cooler / Forge DVs
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Default 05-05-2010, 12:29 PM

We had ambient temps upward of 80* yesterday, humid/muggy. My IATs are through the roof, thereofore the stock Intercooler has to go... not to mention possibly being a big flow restriction causing my turbos to work harder than they really need to be working. I think we all knew it may come to it, but I personally was hoping it wouldnt be this bad. On full dead stop pulls at ~16psi, I am seeing rapidly increasing IATs in the 170* range for the majority of a pull and increasing to 180* at the middle/top of third. The car is laying down big time, whereas it pulls like a freight train when I am hitting it just after cruising (and IATs are sitting at nearly ambient) or when just getting in it in the morning. I am also seeing IATs at 130* just from sitting and idling, although that could be normal no matter what since I am not moving in traffic/etc.

you will see slight MUCH lower AIT's than that with the Helix, as a matter of fact on mutiple gear runs 2-3-4 aits should only be a few degrees above ambient!



That said, I definitely need to get rid of this stock unit... despite having bigger more efficient turbos I feel its really heatsoaking regardless and killing my IATs. I need this thing maintaining 120* or less IATs. Next move is installing an Intercooler, pronto, only to hope it cures this dilemna.

I currently have the Helix FMIC, but am also considering looking into the AMS unit.

Why would you use a lesser performing Intercooler on your car? Independant data clearly shows the Helix has better AIT control and less heatsoak...

Id like to hear what you all have to think about the 2?

The Helix looks like a nicer core, but Im not a big fan of the size/weight nor the end tank design. It has 2.25" inlet/outlet. The AMS looks like a smaller core, but the end tanks look very nice and free flowing. It has a 3" inlet/outlet. Im not sure what size the stock inlet and outlet diameters were?

What do you all think?

The helix has a 2.5" OD inlet and outlet which matches the stock charge piping, the only way to improve that is to knife edge the inlet side(passenger side)-***our newest FMIC design has knife edged inlets and outlets casted in! Heres a pic:

FYI the stock O-ring couplers neck down to less than 2" ID
As for the weight-You want mass in a FMIC this mass is what absorbs the heat and prolongs heat soak- this is ONE of the reasons the Helix performs better than other intercoolers, other reasons are our dense internal fin count and larger ambient face!


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Last edited by TurboBullett; 05-05-2010 at 01:16 PM..
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Default 05-05-2010, 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita
i think that if there was an issue with weight and 2 screws fitment of the helix someone would have already reported it. There are plenty of people with the Helix on that did many miles without issues.
we have sold over 200 Helix FMIC's and no one has had any issues, the factory screws handle the load in the proper plane, external support brackets dont! the FMIC is also supported by the plastic undertray and silicone couplers.


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Default 05-05-2010, 12:43 PM

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klipseracer klipseracer is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 01:11 PM

I'm not a fan of the extra weight or small outlets. I'm sure the Independent data is fairly accurate, but once the cars have been driven hard, which is where it counts, that extra mass will do nothing if anything in the way of keeping IAT's down. It's just pure cooling and flow ability at that point. Big mass intercoolers always look better on a dyno and direct 1:1 IAT monitoring.... Because they are better, For those few short minutes before the core is soaked. Heat soak happens to any intercooler. That 'mass' advantage IMO is only temporary when driving the car aggressively. You can never get rid of the weight however and at no point does it offset those cooler pulls when the core has been sitting cold all night. Just my two cents and the reason I went AMS. I thnk and know the helix is also a great product and surely can't go wrong with it. I also have full 3" from ams ic outlets to throttle body piping. It's not an issue about wether hpf or helix can do it, I've already got it with the ams. I like things simple and if someone can provide equal or better results at a better price.... Well isn't that why we are all trying to give rob money Instead of all the other people? Wether or not you believe the amsis equal or better along the lines of overall performance is the only decision you have to make. The simplicity and price and outlet diameter isn't one of those debatable factors.

Last edited by klipseracer; 05-05-2010 at 01:18 PM..
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