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Default 04-04-2010, 06:33 AM

any updates Bobby?


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Default 04-04-2010, 09:53 AM

Yep, sure is! But there is good news and bad news.

First with the bad news:
1) The car is not together yet.
2) The rear induction tube I do not believe was designed to ever be removed while the motor is still in the car. I spent way too much time trying to get it off and make tools to get it off. I could try to forcefully get it out or modify it in the car but the problem I have is that if it doesnt work that I will have to drop the motor to replace it (as far as I can tell). This has me very hesitant to follow through with removing and/or modifying it. Another problem that leads me too though is that I already modified the front tube, thinking rear must come off as well. This means I am going to have to order a new front tube if I dont modify the rear (I want them to be the same). I spent a ton of time trying to work out a process to work it out, but am very close to tossing in the towel. Even though the induction tubes ideally would be sized to the compressor, I unfortunately dont believe there is going to be a "recommended" solution to the modification or replacement of these without dropping the motor. I really dont think the gains to be had are worth all of that effort either, the turbos will just have to work a little harder.

NOTE: I know OldBooster has modified Induction Tubes, so if he reads this and wants to chime in with the method he used to replace them it would be much appreciated. I just dont see a good solution for the typical end user out there that is 100% repeatable and doesnt rack up the install man hours 5x.



The good news:
All of the parts are setup and it is going to work. I have test fitted every line (one by one) and they all fit. Setup and orientation of the turbo is CRITICAL to ensure this, it is truly unbelievable how there is virtually no margin for error whatsever. I have removed and installed these things probably 30x now and have found the sweet spot for both the front and rear turbo. These "sweet spots" are something I have duly noted so that you all will not have to worry about it. Very happy to say these are going to be a VERY clean install and that all the adaptations are suitable for the lines.

Anyway, happy Easter all. I hope to spend some more time on this later buttoning it all up as much as I can until I recieve a couple more parts (front induction tube).

Thanks,
Rob

ps. jp- enough of that bobby talk...
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klipseracer klipseracer is offline
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Default 04-04-2010, 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBeck
Yep, sure is! But there is good news and bad news.

First with the bad news:
1) The car is not together yet.
2) The rear induction tube I do not believe was designed to ever be removed while the motor is still in the car. I spent way too much time trying to get it off and make tools to get it off. I could try to forcefully get it out or modify it in the car but the problem I have is that if it doesnt work that I will have to drop the motor to replace it (as far as I can tell). This has me very hesitant to follow through with removing and/or modifying it. Another problem that leads me too though is that I already modified the front tube, thinking rear must come off as well. This means I am going to have to order a new front tube if I dont modify the rear (I want them to be the same). I spent a ton of time trying to work out a process to work it out, but am very close to tossing in the towel. Even though the induction tubes ideally would be sized to the compressor, I unfortunately dont believe there is going to be a "recommended" solution to the modification or replacement of these without dropping the motor. I really dont think the gains to be had are worth all of that effort either, the turbos will just have to work a little harder.

NOTE: I know OldBooster has modified Induction Tubes, so if he reads this and wants to chime in with the method he used to replace them it would be much appreciated. I just dont see a good solution for the typical end user out there that is 100% repeatable and doesnt rack up the install man hours 5x.



The good news:
All of the parts are setup and it is going to work. I have test fitted every line (one by one) and they all fit. Setup and orientation of the turbo is CRITICAL to ensure this, it is truly unbelievable how there is virtually no margin for error whatsever. I have removed and installed these things probably 30x now and have found the sweet spot for both the front and rear turbo. These "sweet spots" are something I have duly noted so that you all will not have to worry about it. Very happy to say these are going to be a VERY clean install and that all the adaptations are suitable for the lines.

Anyway, happy Easter all. I hope to spend some more time on this later buttoning it all up as much as I can until I recieve a couple more parts (front induction tube).

Thanks,
Rob

ps. jp- enough of that bobby talk...

So what will be the difference with the induction tubes as far as the design is concerned? How hard is it to get a new front tube?
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Default 04-04-2010, 10:26 AM

There is discussion earlier in this thread about the intake tubes. As for the front tube I need a new one as I hacked up my old one- thinking I was going to modify it.
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Default 04-04-2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBeck
There is discussion earlier in this thread about the intake tubes. As for the front tube I need a new one as I hacked up my old one- thinking I was going to modify it.
did you send a PM to old booster ?
better yet - if he agrees - you should get his email since he and his engine builder have had his entire motor (turbos, etc) apart at least once.

my 2 cents


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Default 04-04-2010, 11:18 AM

I am content with what I wrote above. I really only mentioned OldBooster as I knew someone would mention he had accomplished it. But I am sure he can attest to the rear Induction tube is not easy to get to provided you ever wanted to put a stock unmodified unit back into place. So even if you do modify it on the car, it wouldnt be reversable without dropping the engine (ie going back to stock). If you hack it out to replace it with something custom, you run into the same problem. Some hard core enthusiasts may find this ok, but the most of you will not be inclined to do such a thing or take that sort of risk and I'd really like to model my install on what I'd recommend for the "masses" to do. And finally I simply dont think the payback in gains from replacing (or modifying) the induction tubes is going to be worth the effort/cost of install. "Reversability" is something I always try to keep in mind.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 04-04-2010 at 11:24 AM..
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Default 04-04-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBeck
I am content with what I wrote above. I really only mentioned OldBooster as I knew someone would mention he had accomplished it. But I am sure he can attest to the rear Induction tube is not easy to get to provided you ever wanted to put a stock unmodified unit back into place. So even if you do modify it on the car, it wouldnt be reversable without dropping the engine (ie going back to stock). If you hack it out to replace it with something custom, you run into the same problem. Some hard core enthusiasts may find this ok, but the most of you will not be inclined to do such a thing or take that sort of risk and I'd really like to model my install on what I'd recommend for the "masses" to do. And finally I simply dont think the payback in gains from replacing (or modifying) the induction tubes is going to be worth the effort/cost of install. "Reversability" is something I always try to keep in mind.
How difficult/costly would it be to make this change at a later time should a replicable solution become available?
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Default 04-04-2010, 11:44 AM

If you are concerned about anything you probably should just take my suggestion and run with it. Dont lose sleep over any of it either, its not worth it. Every turbo upgrade out there is doing it how I am saying you will need to, keeping them the same is very easy and makes the install even easier. I was trying to do something different for optimization purposes but determined its not the best idea or not worth it. If you are that hardcore and wish to improvise your own solution, that is fine too just share your results and findings as you do it.

Thanks,
Rob

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
How difficult/costly would it be to make this change at a later time should a replicable solution become available?
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Default 04-04-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBeck
If you are concerned about anything you probably should just take my suggestion and run with it. Dont lose sleep over any of it either, its not worth it. Every turbo upgrade out there is doing it how I am saying you will need to, keeping them the same is very easy and makes the install even easier. I was trying to do something different for optimization purposes but determined its not the best idea or not worth it. If you are that hardcore and wish to improvise your own solution, that is fine too just share your results and findings as you do it.

Thanks,
Rob
I'm not worrying about it whatsoever. I'm just a very curious person. After re-reading this thread to find information about it, I did stumble across your talks about a straight through 3" ********/exhaust system. Tell me what you think about what i've done here:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7219
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Default 04-04-2010, 12:04 PM

Nice that keeping the stock induction ***** makes this an easy install!

But then...any idea of how many hours to drop the motor and upgrade the induction tubes? I don't see any reason for me to go back to stock. What could be a reason to do something like that? Do you think the upgraded induction tubes could be noticed on an inspection? I don't think they are familiar enough with all the cars... Warranty I don't have to worry about any more, since I'm modded.
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Default 04-04-2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnk
Nice that keeping the stock induction ***** makes this an easy install!

But then...any idea of how many hours to drop the motor and upgrade the induction tubes? I don't see any reason for me to go back to stock. What could be a reason to do something like that? Do you think the upgraded induction tubes could be noticed on an inspection? I don't think they are familiar enough with all the cars... Warranty I don't have to worry about any more, since I'm modded.

While you've got the motor dropped you might as well invest into some upgraded pistons/rods right? There is always that, 'one more thing' we could do. But I think like rob says, this will perform well within our expectations and I do honestly think if we get bored with the power, someone can go back in there and make this type of change.
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Default 04-04-2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
I'm not worrying about it whatsoever. I'm just a very curious person. After re-reading this thread to find information about it, I did stumble across your talks about a straight through 3" ********/exhaust system. Tell me what you think about what i've done here:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7219
Rob's turbos flow so well that you will do yourself a favor by going full 3" and not tapering down to 2.5"
And while on it and making sure you have the best possible flow, I'd upgrade the induction tubes too
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Default 04-04-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnk
Rob's turbos flow so well that you will do yourself a favor by going full 3" and not tapering down to 2.5"
And while on it and making sure you have the best possible flow, I'd upgrade the induction tubes too
I'm not saying anything to deep here, but I know that going too big for instance can cause a loss in TQ/HP. I'm trying to find a happy medium here
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Default 04-04-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
While you've got the motor dropped you might as well invest into some upgraded pistons/rods right? There is always that, 'one more thing' we could do. But I think like rob says, this will perform well within our expectations and I do honestly think if we get bored with the power, someone can go back in there and make this type of change.
Its just that "upgraded pistons" are a downgrade in my books. I don't like the noise of forged pistons in a daily driver Bmw. Might be >10x the cost as well.
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Default 04-04-2010, 12:13 PM

my only concern regarding the upgraded turbo setup is the fact our stock fuel system may not be able to handle it....


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Default 04-04-2010, 12:13 PM

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Originally Posted by klipseracer
I'm not saying anything to deep here, but I know that going too big for instance can cause a loss in TQ/HP. I'm trying to find a happy medium here
I've seen you saying that. However, it's not true. The less back pressure the better. On a turbo car, the best exhaust is no exhaust. If ASR claimed otherwise, they just don't know too much about turbo upgrades, but that we know already.
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Default 04-04-2010, 01:35 PM

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Originally Posted by bnk
I've seen you saying that. However, it's not true. The less back pressure the better. On a turbo car, the best exhaust is no exhaust. If ASR claimed otherwise, they just don't know too much about turbo upgrades, but that we know already.
You basing that off what type of proof? I agree with half of your statement. The best exhaust IS no exhaust. But increasing the diameter of the piping doesn't also eliminate* skin frictional losses as well as other things. forcing the exhaust to flow through a pipe requires velocity and momentum* otherwise its just 'in the way'. If there is a dump tube, great. Go as big as you please, but if you're still directing the exhaust gasses out of a pipe, then it needs to be pushed out, creating the losses I'm speaking of. I promise you.

EDIT: By the way, back pressure is a vaguely used word. I can sit and argue all day why increasing diameter of the pipe doesn't equate into more power or at times even less back pressure.

Last edited by klipseracer; 04-04-2010 at 01:49 PM..
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Default 04-04-2010, 01:54 PM

If I were a very devoted person, this is exactly what I would do. By all means, if someone wants to do all of this with the turbo upgrade... be my guest

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnk
Rob's turbos flow so well that you will do yourself a favor by going full 3" and not tapering down to 2.5"
And while on it and making sure you have the best possible flow, I'd upgrade the induction tubes too
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Default 04-04-2010, 01:55 PM

Im not sure backpressure post turbine is that big of a deal. There is plenty of backpressure caused by the turbine housing in itself... Im pretty certain youd be best off running 3" all the way back if you have the ability to do as such.
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Default 04-04-2010, 02:01 PM

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Originally Posted by RobBeck
Im not sure backpressure post turbine is that big of a deal. There is plenty of backpressure caused by the turbine housing in itself... Im pretty certain youd be best off running 3" all the way back if you have the ability to do as such.
Well. The good news is it would be very simple for me to test this if I felt the need to make a 3" axle back.
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Default 04-04-2010, 02:32 PM

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Originally Posted by klipseracer
Well. The good news is it would be very simple for me to test this if I felt the need to make a 3" axle back.
Go all the way! That is what I thought you were doing. Any reason not to, besides extra money?

Last edited by SlicktopTTZ; 04-04-2010 at 02:40 PM..
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Default 04-04-2010, 02:34 PM

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Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ
Go all the way! That is what I thought you were doing. Any reason not to, besides etra money?
Money is a small part of it. More than anything its just motivation. I'm very curious to see what the stock mufflers coupled with this exhaust setup sounds like. Removing all 4 cats and increasing the diameter will be more than sufficient to allow these turbos to flow well. That, and I did not have a deal worked out with Justin to do a full exhaust. Tapering down to 2.5" would slip right onto my stock exhaust and would do for now. The intention was to continue on with a 2.5" aftermarket dual setup which is probably what I'll do. It is easier to have the last section of the exhaust installed with my car in person. But I don't trust any of the local shops to do the same quality work and have the same experience with down *****. And whoever was making the down *****, it makes sense to have them do the mids also since they mate together. Any muffler shop should be able to do the rest for me.
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Default 04-04-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
Money is a small part of it. More than anything its just motivation. I'm very curious to see what the stock mufflers coupled with this exhaust setup sounds like. That, and I did not have a deal worked out with Justin to do a full exhaust and tapering down to 2.5" would slip right onto my stock exhaust and would do for now. The intention was to continue on with a 2.5" aftermarket dual setup which is probably what I'll do. It is easier to have the last section of the exhaust installed with my car in person. But I don't trust any of the local shops to do the same quality work and have the same experience with down *****. And whoever was making the down *****, it makes sense to have them do the mids also since they mate together. Any muffler shop should be able to do the rest for me.
Ok, well one way we could see if the 2.5" finishing section is causing any power loss is you could dyno the car with the back end off and then dyno again with it installed. I don't think the taper at the end of the mid-pipe should cause much of a loss. Ha I wish I had a dyno myself, I would test all sorts of small changes. Good luck!
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Default 04-04-2010, 02:54 PM

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Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ
Ok, well one way we could see if the 2.5" finishing section is causing any power loss is you could dyno the car with the back end off and then dyno again with it installed. I don't think the taper at the end of the mid-pipe should cause much of a loss. Ha I wish I had a dyno myself, I would test all sorts of small changes. Good luck!
A straight through dual 3" exhaust that is already 'more than sufficient' will show less power than a straight through dual 3" exhaust that ends at the midpipes... Why? Because skin frictional losses. If you made the ***** dual 4", you'll still see skin frictional losses and the power has not been increased. True or false? The fact that no exhaust is the best exhaust proves this concept. Once someone can give me a valid reason that our car needs dual 3" then I have no real reason to make it that way when I have seen losses in torque by going too big, even on turbocharged vehicles not to mention the weight increase and expense. I think I have something of a sweet spot. I hope :D

EDIT: If we did have mid ***** with a 2.5" taper and the same mid ***** without the taper, I believe the dynos would favor the non-tapering exhaust slightly. The question is this however. If you continued the 3" piping would the air velocity be the same? It won't. Those exhaust gasses cool a great deal and shrink as they go along and require less room and therefore they will slow down. I just don't know how to make anyone believe me on this one.

If straight 3" turns out to be better, I'll be the first one to correct myself. Not all engines are the same.

Last edited by klipseracer; 04-04-2010 at 03:05 PM..
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Default 04-04-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
A straight through dual 3" exhaust that is already 'more than sufficient' will show less power than a straight through dual 3" exhaust that ends at the midpipes... Why? Because skin frictional losses. If you made the ***** dual 4", you'll still see skin frictional losses and the power has not been increased. True or false? The fact that no exhaust is the best exhaust proves this concept. Once someone can give me a valid reason that our car needs dual 3" then I have no real reason to make it that way when I have seen losses in torque by going too big, even on turbocharged vehicles not to mention the weight increase and expense. I think I have something of a sweet spot. I hope :D
Well with HVAC duct sizing we just have to meet certain CFM and Static Pressure requirements, different types of bends will equal an Xamount of linear feet in terms of frictional losses but generally the more cfm needed at a supply grill, the larger the ducting would be. We also cannot size ducts too small because the Static Pressure, or Back-Pressure in automotive terms, would be too great and the evaporator fan will have to try harder to move air, resulting in more amp draw(higher energy bill) and a shorter motor life. A smaller duct will increase velocity, used in special high velocity duct systems with special motors and requirements, but generally the only time we down size is to keep too many CFM from reaching a supply area. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am not that educated in exhaust systems, and I really want to learn more about automotive exhaust system design, but I'm on a different career path right now. Can't wait to see results!
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