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Default 08-15-2016, 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
PI is already cut the moment the clutch is pressed. .
Sorry, I meant cut faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
In terms of map6 meth safety the spray and pray meth safety option is available although we suggest using the progressive meth map if you are relying on meth for octane or fueling. No other map will provide the same safety level..
Ok, so to get meth safeties with map 6, we need to set meth trigger =0 and meth safety=2, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
On making the lean AFR setting adjustable we'll work on that in a future version. No development work has been done for misfire detection, we'll work on that in a future version.
Can't wait this future version


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Default 08-15-2016, 12:21 PM

As you say the pi cut as soon as you touch the clutch pedal but the Pi keeps flowing fuel for a split second causing massive backfires because of the Unburnt fuel entering the exhaust

This in turn destroyed two of my o2 lambada sensors, cracked the intake manifold

So I started using nls to stop this from happening which it did but destroyed my second gear in my gearbox

So far this implementation has cost my in excess of 10k in repairs

Things have to get done asap or more failures like this are going to happen

Not happy
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Default 08-15-2016, 05:29 PM

Are the new m4/m3 having any of these problems? I thought I had waited until the n54 PI was far enough along to not be a test dummy but some of this stuff is making me question why switch from my reliable meth setup.


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forcedownunder forcedownunder is offline
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Default 08-15-2016, 07:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
Terry
Why is there no failsafe on map 6 ??
Is it this difficult to get the same safeties with map 6 that we have with map 3?
When using map 6, with meth trigger=0 and meth safety =2, the jb4 still monitor the meth flow and kill boost targets if flow start to dive, right??


When will the misfire detection be implemented in the PI control logic?
Could it be used to cut the PI during MT upshifts, to avoid backfires?
That's currently 2 of the main drawbacks of PI.
This safety should also be implemented in the meth control logic too.

We already discussed about this month ago ( map 6 failsafe, and misfire/pi kit).
New safeties implemented in the jb4 to control meth and PIkit should be added asap.

I told you too few weeks ago about an adjustable lean safety feature.
Your current lean safety is set too high, and is not adjustable towards rpm.
Can you add this too?
+1

Just dropped $15k in a rebuild of my motor and would love to see this incorporated as additional safety for the motor.

Last edited by forcedownunder; 08-15-2016 at 07:47 PM..
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Default 08-15-2016, 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
Sorry, I meant cut faster.
I don't see how it could be cut faster than when pressing in the clutch pedal. It's sampled via an analog wire at 200hz and the signal is sent directly to the BMS controller to cut fuel. If using the AIC6 maybe there is some filtering going on that might delay that 200ms but I doubt it.


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Default 08-15-2016, 07:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
As you say the pi cut as soon as you touch the clutch pedal but the Pi keeps flowing fuel for a split second causing massive backfires because of the Unburnt fuel entering the exhaust
Generally you'd expect more backfires and fueling related problems using NLS not less. But the port injection control system does what it does. I've not heard of widely reported issues and we've not encountered any of these on our manual trans PI development vehicle. I've also not heard of anyone "blowing" their manual trans. I don't have any additional advice for you other than if your car responds better to meth then switch back to meth. But I'm sure you know over the years plenty of people running meth have blown up their intake manifolds.


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Default 08-15-2016, 07:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennejp
Are the new m4/m3 having any of these problems? I thought I had waited until the n54 PI was far enough along to not be a test dummy but some of this stuff is making me question why switch from my reliable meth setup.
The S55 has it's own set of problems like spinning crank hubs. Port injection for the S55 is not as well developed as it is for the N54 but so far those running it are not reporting any major issues.


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Default 08-15-2016, 07:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
Ok, so to get meth safeties with map 6, we need to set meth trigger =0 and meth safety=2, right?
Yes meth safety = 2 will switch from any map to map4 if meth is below the meth scale value for more than 1 second over the meth min boost setting.


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Default 08-15-2016, 08:12 PM

So is there any other safety's on map 6 besides meth ?

So there is no safety for pi and meth if for what ever reason di is cut during WOT ?

Or in other words if pi is flowing and so is meth and the dme decides to cut di
is there and safety to shut down both or either pi or meth while you have your foot buried to the floor
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Default 08-15-2016, 09:34 PM

Both port injection and meth are mapped on various criteria. If the DME cuts direct injection whether or not the JB4 would also cut meth/port injection flow would depend through what mechanism the DME used to cut off direct injection. For example if you press the clutch in the DME cuts injection as does the JB4. If anything causes the JB4 to go to the safety map it custs injection. If a misfire fault occurs the DME cuts off injection but the JB4 does not currently. Although I'm not 100% sure the DME runs spark when cutting down injection. I suspect it cuts both.

The "backfire" sound you might get with meth, port injection, etc, during shifts is fuel going in to the exhaust and igniting. Because of the DME cutting spark.


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Default 08-15-2016, 11:10 PM

So if there is a misfire we are most likely or could have a melt down on our hands ?

At this stage when going WOT there is no misfire safety if Di is cut for Pi and meth

The dme doesn't have to run spark for the fuel to ignite under wot it will self ignite when it enteres
An extremely hot cylinder as e85 has a far lower auto ignition point than unleaded fuel
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Default 08-15-2016, 11:22 PM

What about this

Could a safety be implemented to reduce throttle to let's say 25% when a misfire is detected on any cylinder ?

Or even totally cut throttle to 0% would that be something that could be done quickly and safely ?

Last edited by martymil; 08-15-2016 at 11:35 PM..
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Default 08-16-2016, 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
So if there is a misfire we are most likely or could have a melt down on our hands ?

At this stage when going WOT there is no misfire safety if Di is cut for Pi and meth

The dme doesn't have to run spark for the fuel to ignite under wot it will self ignite when it enteres
An extremely hot cylinder as e85 has a far lower auto ignition point than unleaded fuel
Who knows on the misfire. I've only heard of one or two melt downs that might have been related to a misfire fault. When you melt down you also get a misfire fault though so it's a chicken and egg argument. Given how many people run meth over the years which would have the same problem, and how few times I've heard of issues, it's not something I've been very concerned with.

I'm also not that concerned with preignition on the application when the DME cuts spark.

I think as a good form though it would be nice to scan and check for misfires and shut down meth and/or PI when they occur.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 08-16-2016, 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I think as a good form though it would be nice to scan and check for misfires and shut down meth and/or PI when they occur.
Well this would be a big step forward and a big safety feature for everyone

Now if something could be done about the backfires ?

I know this one would be hard but its a lambada sensor killer and nls is not an
option due to killing 2nd gear under big hp applications, I might be the first but
surely wont be the last either.
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Default 08-16-2016, 01:34 PM

We tried a few things for your manual shifting backfires with no real results. So until more people with the issue are able to triangulate on something new to test, I'm out of ideas there.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 08-16-2016, 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
Well this would be a big step forward and a big safety feature for everyone

Now if something could be done about the backfires ?

I know this one would be hard but its a lambada sensor killer and nls is not an
option due to killing 2nd gear under big hp applications, I might be the first but
surely wont be the last either.
What exactly is making it a 2nd gear killer?? I honestly cant say Ive used NLS from first to second from memory but if anything, shifts seem smoother in the higher gears when using NLS.


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Best stock turbo 12.5 @ 19.46 spinning all the way down
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Default 08-16-2016, 01:51 PM

Because the first gear is so short 4 to 1 and then the 2nd gear is 2.4 to 1 which is a huge
difference and not suited for high revs and big hp and fast gear changing using Nls

The is no problems in other gears as the ratios are better matched for quick gear changes

The synchro on the 2nd gear has to work overtime to slow the gear down

It's well documented that 2nd gear fails on zf boxes and atm the is a world wide shortage of
them, BMW Germany hasn't got any stock as I write this
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Default 08-16-2016, 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
Because the first gear is so short 4 to 1 and then the 2nd gear is 2.4 to 1 which is a huge
difference and not suited for high revs and big hp and fast gear changing using Nls

The is no problems in other gears as the ratios are better matched for quick gear changes

The synchro on the 2nd gear has to work overtime to slow the gear down

It's well documented that 2nd gear fails on zf boxes and atm the is a world wide shortage of
them, BMW Germany hasn't got any stock as I write this

I do recall reading about this somewhere else and dont deny it is an issue especially when running high HP engines. The only thing I have trouble rapping my head around is the that NLS should make the shift easier as your essentially making it easier for the syncros when you cut ignition.


2010 AW/BLK 135i VM 6465 Single Turbo, JB4 + MHD, VRSF CP & Tial, Big Tom, Fuel-It PI + Stage 3 + Return + Ethanol Sensor, BMW PE, MFactory LSD & Axles, Spec 3+ & MFactory SMFW, RB External PCV
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Default 08-16-2016, 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
We tried a few things for your manual shifting backfires with no real results. So until more people with the issue are able to triangulate on something new to test, I'm out of ideas there.
Well I have a possible solution but don't know how to implement it

Stop the engine from cutting spark on shift
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Default 08-16-2016, 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBeemah
I do recall reading about this somewhere else and dont deny it is an issue especially when running high HP engines. The only thing I have trouble rapping my head around is the that NLS should make the shift easier as your essentially making it easier for the syncros when you cut ignition.
It's because of the huge difference in ratios is the problem

The torque figures in 1st must be of the scale

First gear should be no more than 3 to 1
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Default 08-16-2016, 02:05 PM

Terry is there any way not to run any boost in first gear

Even when boost limiting the first gear it still over boosts to over 10 psi
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Default 08-16-2016, 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Who knows on the misfire. I've only heard of one or two melt downs that might have been related to a misfire fault. When you melt down you also get a misfire fault though so it's a chicken and egg argument. Given how many people run meth over the years which would have the same problem, and how few times I've heard of issues, it's not something I've been very concerned with.

I'm also not that concerned with preignition on the application when the DME cuts spark.

I think as a good form though it would be nice to scan and check for misfires and shut down meth and/or PI when they occur.
Sounds like a great additional safety to add in.
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Default 08-17-2016, 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
Terry is there any way not to run any boost in first gear

Even when boost limiting the first gear it still over boosts to over 10 psi
Log of 1st gear with boost limit set to say 5psi? Should work although never tested it myself.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 08-17-2016, 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Log of 1st gear with boost limit set to say 5psi? Should work although never tested it myself.
Im not sure if it will work as I have tried it before. AFAIK the lowest boost you can run will always be spring pressure.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 08-18-2016, 02:43 AM

In for additional misfire safeties!
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