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Default 04-22-2013, 09:01 PM

also just to clarify did you drill both the injector ports and the port where the hpfp feeds or just one of those?


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Default 04-22-2013, 09:09 PM

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Originally Posted by WDBi
yeah it would be great to have an easy fix like this at least for stock and stock frame turbos! Its simple enough to remove the fuel rail and buy a few drill bits lol
Do you need to set the rail in a vice/frame or press before drilling? I'm imagining that you'd want the hole sizes to be pretty consistent between cylinders no?


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Default 04-22-2013, 09:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aoschadlin
Do you need to set the rail in a vice/frame or press before drilling? I'm imagining that you'd want the hole sizes to be pretty consistent between cylinders no?
haha yeah to be safe id probably use a drill press and make sure that no small metal scraps get in the rail


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Default 04-22-2013, 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDBi
also just to clarify did you drill both the injector ports and the port where the hpfp feeds or just one of those?
No, I only enlarged the individual ports that feed the injectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aoschadlin
Do you need to set the rail in a vice/frame or press before drilling? I'm imagining that you'd want the hole sizes to be pretty consistent between cylinders no?
Actually...I didn't remove the rail as it was more secure in place. I flushed it of fuel and used an extension on a dremel with a new drill bit for each port...probably overkill as they were actually very easy to drill. I had already determined that the existing orifice was not very thick and opened up on the inside of the rail. The extension enabled me to steady my hands on the top of the motor and resolved any clearance issues. I then flushed the rail with MAF sensor cleaner and compressed air a few times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDBi
haha yeah to be safe id probably use a drill press and make sure that no small metal scraps get in the rail
Pretty hard not to get debris in the rail....flushing it is key.

BUT PLEASE DON'T DO THIS BEFORE I GET MORE CONCLUSIVE RESULTS...I'd hate for this to be ineffective or worse cause an issue and feel responsible for this hair brained idea.



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Default 04-22-2013, 09:32 PM

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Originally Posted by SteveAZ
BUT PLEASE DON'T DO THIS BEFORE I GET MORE CONCLUSIVE RESULTS...I'd hate for this to be ineffective or worse cause an issue and feel responsible for this hair brained idea.
No problems. Just learning along the way.


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Default 04-22-2013, 10:09 PM

hmm i think it may be beneficial to open up the port into the rail. I think that restriction may be the piece causing the extra strain on the hpfp


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Default 04-22-2013, 11:04 PM

I'm not sure...you may be right and more volume may certainly help. However, once it gets to a certain pressure that strain is going to remain. The volume at the rail inlet is probably a good 6 or 7 times that of the cumulative volume of the injector ports....stock.

Just went and took a few pulls...I still have the same problem...hpfp takes a dive on initial WOT.

Before the porting...


After the porting...


I'm going to uninstall the flash and see how it compares to pre-flash,

edit...forgot to include the csv files...



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Default 04-22-2013, 11:17 PM

i think i may bore out all the injector outlets to the size of the inlet on the injector and bore out the inlet to the rail to flow as much as all the injector outlets combined


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Default 04-22-2013, 11:20 PM

I'm already extremely close to that point and the inlet is still more than twice the volume of all 6 combined.



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Default 04-22-2013, 11:29 PM

without the inlet being drilled at all?


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Default 04-23-2013, 12:07 AM

Correct...right now my car's rail injector ports are .003 sq."s x 6 = .018 The stock inlet is conservatively .038 sq. "s. The inlets to the injectors themselves are approx. .003 sq. "s as a 1/16" drill bit will barely fit.

Just tested non flash on my car at e40....no improvement. The hpfp was fine but AFRs were crap as were trims...so it obviously isn't seeing as much demand.

I am going to order a new hpfp tomorrow and resume my testing after install. Although that kind of invalidates any old data.



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Default 04-23-2013, 12:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Know one? While you're at it, find one that can decode the DME as well



.0625, it's very close to the size of the inlet on the injector, although the injector port is slightly larger. So there may even be more room for improvement. I'm hoping that in going with .0625 and the total potential volume of all 6 ports remaining less than half of that of the rail...pressure drops will be minimized. Can always go larger...smaller, not so much

My other concern is that the post hpfp line may be .2 inches or so...but can the lpfp line to the hpfp really support that? Guessing we'll see some pretty good lpfp drops in pressure if that becomes an issue...so far no indication of that.
That is over three times bigger area than stock, so if stock was able to support 500whp, this is good for >1500whp.
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Default 04-23-2013, 04:00 AM

Thanks for your testing. HPFP seems to be the bottleneck then. I'm sure you did the right thing though with the fuel rail so far as that was a restriction too.
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Default 04-23-2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Know one? While you're at it, find one that can decode the DME as well
Donít know a DME decoder, but connected w/ a FI guru that I worked with back in the day.

It was a DOD project. Turbocharged 1.4 liter DI rotary engine that made 400HP. It was for the military so it had to run @ rated power for 400 hours. Yes, thatís 17 days straight! Also it was Stratified Charge -had a pilot and main injector in each bank.

He owns a FI company and seems to have some interest in our issues.

Hereís his comments on the rail.

ďThe restriction at the rail is almost guaranteed to be a means of damping pulsations in the injection tubing. If you open up the holes in the rail you also want to increase the diameter of your feed tubes so that the area ratio remains the same, otherwise you are likely to get conditions at which the pulsations in the feed system prevent proper operation of the injectors.Ē
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Default 04-23-2013, 11:13 AM

He is looking to get in deeper & is asking for an old injector.

PM me if you have one to spare for the N54 community.
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Default 04-23-2013, 11:36 AM

I was thinking about the pulsation from the pump yesterday, they are a side effect of the way the system works. He said he was looking into increasing the size of some other components, and also even with the pulses the peak pressure is never so high it would harm anything, just possibly make fuel metering less precise per injector piezo "on" time. Interesting though, I'm sure someone has an injector to spare. I will shortly if bmw doesn't want to do it free.
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Default 04-23-2013, 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDBi
Very interesting. I may try this. Im on 100% e85 with the Walbro 455lph so the benefits of this may be amplified with my car. Steve please update us with results and if everything looks ok ill hop on this.
when I did my valve cover and had the fuel rail on I was VERY surprise on how tiny the holes where and was going to make a post but thought it was just my OCD....this is awesome!


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Default 04-23-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Correct...right now my car's rail injector ports are .003 sq."s x 6 = .018 The stock inlet is conservatively .038 sq. "s. The inlets to the injectors themselves are approx. .003 sq. "s as a 1/16" drill bit will barely fit.

Just tested non flash on my car at e40....no improvement. The hpfp was fine but AFRs were crap as were trims...so it obviously isn't seeing as much demand.

I am going to order a new hpfp tomorrow and resume my testing after install. Although that kind of invalidates any old data.
Without the flash I don't think you can really test too far, if hpfp pressure is up then your fueling there should be like stock, trims won't be affected on the piggyback much unless the injectors are flowing more, which since pressure is good they will be flowing normal. With the flash you can fuel until the hpfp pressure crashes, in these situations I think this might be noticeable, if that makes sense. The extra flow may keep afr's in check with less hpfp pressure, since there is less of a bottleneck to the injector.
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Default 04-23-2013, 12:41 PM

Nice work Vroom, yes I have an injector...he is welcome to it. PM me the address and I'll send it out...it's a 261 that was leaking...maybe he can fix it...

Yes Justin... makes total sense...I just did a test without the flash for those that don't have o e and were curious as to the results...frankly, nothing positive to report on that front with my limited testing.

New hpfp has been ordered.

Edit: We may even be able to work something out with my current hpfp if it'll help...



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Default 04-23-2013, 06:26 PM

PM sent
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Default 04-23-2013, 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vroom
PM sent
PM received...

PM replied...

Injector sent...

Have tracking number if needed...



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Default 04-24-2013, 06:22 AM

Awesome!
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Default 04-24-2013, 07:45 AM

Based on the HPFP dropping pressure on load transition and under high loads as measured by the pressure sensor right after the pump outlet, I'd have to say the logic should be to search for a restriction before the fuel rail, not on it or after it.

I would start looking at all of the lines leading up to the inlet of the HPFP and crack open a HPFP to see if you can find any of these unusually small orifices inside the pump. Given the complexity of a major pump change like replacing rotating or piston components, I'm guessing what Vargas must have done is to find something like these small orifices inside the pump and opened them up and perhaps upgraded some easier components like an internal check valve. On top of that, the piping leading up to the pump may have some small restriction as well.

My 2c.

Kudos for stepping up and trying some of your ideas.

Anyone got a bad pump to donate to such an effort?


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Default 04-24-2013, 09:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianBullet
Based on the HPFP dropping pressure on load transition and under high loads as measured by the pressure sensor right after the pump outlet, I'd have to say the logic should be to search for a restriction before the fuel rail, not on it or after it.

I would start looking at all of the lines leading up to the inlet of the HPFP and crack open a HPFP to see if you can find any of these unusually small orifices inside the pump. Given the complexity of a major pump change like replacing rotating or piston components, I'm guessing what Vargas must have done is to find something like these small orifices inside the pump and opened them up and perhaps upgraded some easier components like an internal check valve. On top of that, the piping leading up to the pump may have some small restriction as well.

My 2c.

Kudos for stepping up and trying some of your ideas.

Anyone got a bad pump to donate to such an effort?
+1

Many pumps have gone bad and are worthless. I haven't been lucky enough to get HPFP to fail...to be able to look for the restriction.
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Default 04-24-2013, 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianBullet
Based on the HPFP dropping pressure on load transition and under high loads as measured by the pressure sensor right after the pump outlet, I'd have to say the logic should be to search for a restriction before the fuel rail, not on it or after it.

I would start looking at all of the lines leading up to the inlet of the HPFP and crack open a HPFP to see if you can find any of these unusually small orifices inside the pump. Given the complexity of a major pump change like replacing rotating or piston components, I'm guessing what Vargas must have done is to find something like these small orifices inside the pump and opened them up and perhaps upgraded some easier components like an internal check valve. On top of that, the piping leading up to the pump may have some small restriction as well.

My 2c.

Kudos for stepping up and trying some of your ideas.

Anyone got a bad pump to donate to such an effort?
I agree, but I don't know that my log is typical because I suspect my HPFP isn't performing at 100% as I've always had issues with trims since I got the car (used). So the good news is that I already have a new HPFP in route and thus will have an old one to play with. In the process of changing the pump I'll also take a look at the incoming lines and orifices.

Hoping we get some feedback based on my injector I sent out and if need be and he wants to see it...I'll send the HPFP out as well.



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