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Default Fuel rail specs... - 04-22-2013, 03:03 AM

So out of curiosity I started to investigate the fuel rail. Why I hadn't noticed this before I don't know...but.....

The first thing I noticed...on my car anyway...a 08' 135i...the ports out of the rail to each individual injector...approx. .035" so it specs out like this, all measurements are approximate using the largest drill bit that will fit, except for the ports, I had to use a needle because nothing else I had would fit.

Rail ports to injectors....035" = .001 sq. inches
Rail input from hpfp...>.219" = .038 sq. inches
Lines from rail to injectors...>.139" = .014 sq. inches
Injector input... .102" = .008 sq. Inches

Anybody else notice a bottleneck?

Keep in mind those measurements are rough estimates...and I know nothing about fluid dynamics...but I'd think those injector ports could be a bit larger, especially for those of us running e85. Hell, even if we only took them to .05" we would virtually double the flow to the injectors. Whether or not the HPFP can keep up : but if we're basically sucking that cavity dry or greatly reducing the pressure during initial WOT...the rail/hpfp would see a pretty good drop in pressure and then it's catch up time. However tonight I did 140mph at a gradual pace...hpfp stayed right around 15 the whole time...until about 145 and then I got fuel pressure errors but it literally just cut off from 15.

I'd also be interested to know the configuration of the newer cars and if they made any changes as I seem to have more issues with this.

Any thoughts?

A pic...



You can see in relation to the rail input (line on the right) just how small that hole is in comparison.



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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 04-22-2013 at 03:12 AM..
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Default 04-22-2013, 04:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
So out of curiosity I started to investigate the fuel rail. Why I hadn't noticed this before I don't know...but.....

The first thing I noticed...on my car anyway...a 08' 135i...the ports out of the rail to each individual injector...approx. .035" so it specs out like this, all measurements are approximate using the largest drill bit that will fit, except for the ports, I had to use a needle because nothing else I had would fit.

Rail ports to injectors....035" = .001 sq. inches
Rail input from hpfp...>.219" = .038 sq. inches
Lines from rail to injectors...>.139" = .014 sq. inches
Injector input... .102" = .008 sq. Inches

Anybody else notice a bottleneck?

Keep in mind those measurements are rough estimates...and I know nothing about fluid dynamics...but I'd think those injector ports could be a bit larger, especially for those of us running e85. Hell, even if we only took them to .05" we would virtually double the flow to the injectors. Whether or not the HPFP can keep up : but if we're basically sucking that cavity dry or greatly reducing the pressure during initial WOT...the rail/hpfp would see a pretty good drop in pressure and then it's catch up time. However tonight I did 140mph at a gradual pace...hpfp stayed right around 15 the whole time...until about 145 and then I got fuel pressure errors but it literally just cut off from 15.

I'd also be interested to know the configuration of the newer cars and if they made any changes as I seem to have more issues with this.

Any thoughts?

A pic...



You can see in relation to the rail input (line on the right) just how small that hole is in comparison.
Nice find

The the injector ports are so small that they can be the bottleneck instead of the HPFP. Should be easy and cheap to fix. This together with the LPFP DIY is easy way to big power.
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Default 04-22-2013, 06:59 AM

It amazes me our cars even run with fuel going through something that small. Hmm, how much does a fuel rail cost I wonder? Could that lead to a larger pressure drop in the rail if you enlarge those a bit? Or maybe it would lower trims in closed loop if the injectors are starving. Not quite sure. Subscribed.
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Default 04-22-2013, 09:07 AM

Someone drill em out! I'm trying to find a cheap. Used rail to play with
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Default 04-22-2013, 10:55 AM

Maybe that is what vargas guys are doing , the whole hpfp with the fuel rail is about ~$1200 for the upgrade


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Default 04-22-2013, 11:11 AM

I think its 56 new on real OEM..I got a drill press and machineing tools.. I'd try it
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Default 04-22-2013, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnk
Nice find

The the injector ports are so small that they can be the bottleneck instead of the HPFP. Should be easy and cheap to fix. This together with the LPFP DIY is easy way to big power.
Kind of what I'm hoping. Would like to get input from somebody a bit more qualified than myself in fluid dynamics

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
It amazes me our cars even run with fuel going through something that small. Hmm, how much does a fuel rail cost I wonder? Could that lead to a larger pressure drop in the rail if you enlarge those a bit? Or maybe it would lower trims in closed loop if the injectors are starving. Not quite sure. Subscribed.
I agree, I've had those lines off before to change injectors and never looked at those I'm wondering if with the amount of fuel we're running through there if at some point the efficiency isn't greatly reduced creating some turbulence (especially on sudden accelerations) or worse a void/air pocket that can be compressed which would lead to a misfire or sudden drop in pressure.

I'm more concerned about one cylinder getting starved of fuel if we go to big...like cylinder 6. However, the injectors should keep the rail pressurized but could lead to injector failure?

But like I said...even if we only went to .05...we would almost double at approx. .002 sq. Inches the amount of fuel that could pass through that opening and still leave a lot of headroom compared to the supply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobdudeman1988
Someone drill em out! I'm trying to find a cheap. Used rail to play with
Very tempted...sooo easy to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by albertc
Maybe that is what vargas guys are doing , the whole hpfp with the fuel rail is about ~$1200 for the upgrade
Maybe...$1200....damn....there must be a lot they are doing to the hpfp if that is the case...and do us <500whp guys really need that...that is the question I want answered.



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Default 04-22-2013, 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobdudeman1988
I think its 56 new on real OEM..I got a drill press and machineing tools.. I'd try it
Seriously? I was just going to check that...$56 seems way to cheap. I'll send Dan at united bmw a request for a quote.



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Default 04-22-2013, 12:06 PM

It just said high pressure pipe so I'm not sure.
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Default 04-22-2013, 12:11 PM

I looked at getbmw parts.com and they have it for 170. So I was mistaken. But still not to bad
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Default 04-22-2013, 12:32 PM

Just removed the union in the injector itself (I have a bad one) and the diameter of the hole running down in to the injector is >.055 but not much >...had to use a needle to measure and there wasn't much wiggle room. So other than the tip of the injector itself, and supposedly we have enough capacity with our current injectors, the orifice from the rail is the restriction. I don't get why they'd do it other than to obviously restrict the amount of fuel able to make it to the cylinder in a catastrophic failure...or limit HPs as it's big enough to make 300 hp on pump fuel up to 10 ethanol with some headroom? Missing something?



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Default 04-22-2013, 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobdudeman1988
I looked at getbmw parts.com and they have it for 170. So I was mistaken. But still not to bad
Nice...totally worth a shot. I'll check with them on availability...don't want to have to explain to the wife why I can't drive my car for 4 weeks



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Default 04-22-2013, 01:55 PM

Sent requests to both BMWunited and Getbmwparts to get availability for the rail. Can you not talk to anybody anymore so now it's a waiting game. Just picked up 6 new titanium drill bits for this. The smallest I could get was 1/16"=.0625=.003 sq. Inches, would prefer a bit smaller to begin with but not sure how realistic that is for a DIYer. I break 1/16" all the time as it is. Besides that...the 1/16" fits in every hole but the rail port and with the headroom from the source at a minimum of .038 sq. inches the only potential problem I forsee is fuel rail pressure problems...but hell...I already have those



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Default 04-22-2013, 02:13 PM

Just got this from Dan after inquiring about the rail and an HPFP...

"Hi Steve,

The fuel rail is $147 I would have to order it shipping $18

$324 for the fuel pump, refundable $50 core to make it $274.07 once the core has been returned. shipping $10"

He's always been pretty prompt with his shipments soooo......fug it....worth a shot. Going to inspect my plugs first as I will be monitoring those to make sure a cylinder isn't running lean going forward.

Anybody else have any precautionary ideas or things to monitor other than the obvious of AFRs in both banks, trims, and both fuel pressures? Of course I'll be thoroughly cleaning the rail of any debris prior to install.



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Default 04-22-2013, 02:37 PM

"If we get the parts

$385 HPFP ($100 core) refunded when you send in old one
$268 Rail
$499 upgrade

$1152 before shipping $1252 with core

Tony"
That was the quote I got from those guys


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Default 04-22-2013, 02:38 PM

So as you can see price is .... No comments


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Default 04-22-2013, 04:53 PM

Can't wait to see how this pans out.

Thought there might be some engineering work involved in sizing the holes and I'd bet a nickel there's something to be gained here. But before you start drilling, here's a little from the link at the bottom.

Delphi engineers use math modeling to determine the proper size of the orifice for each application. Inputs include the fuel rail, high pressure pump, spill valve, system control and fuel lines. Delphi's engineering process is capable of predicting fuel pressure and flow rate at any point in the system and response time of the valves.

http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto...gdi_fuelrails/
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Default 04-22-2013, 06:27 PM

Yeah...I agree and that definitely was one of my considerations. However I think we've thrown a bit of a monkey wrench in things as I highly doubt they added an extra 150-200 HP in their calculations or the e85 variable that requires much more fuel capacity. Also, who know what they did to de-performance the motor. Basically I look at it like this...

-For me to do this mod is no biggie, it's easily within my capabilities. Just needs to have close monitoring, easy enough to do.
-Worse case I have to replace the fuel rail...if so we can chalk it up as lesson learned and cross it off the list.
-So I waste a $170 bucks or so...nothing ventured, nothing gained...it's my contribution to the community that I've gleaned plenty from.

That said...too late...I already did it and have done some preliminary testing.

However, it's about 95 here today so I need to wait till later to do more so my iats aren't going through the roof and influencing testing.

My early testing shows I may very well be seeing a reduction in trims...TBD but looks promising.
AFRs are good and seem to be a bit more stable
LPFP seems to be a bit more stable as it looks a bit more like a wave now instead of all peaks and valleys.
HPFP...going to have to see how it does...seems a bit better but did take a dive on one pull...as I've been seeing so I may need to replace it...no biggie.

I did have one scare though after taking out for it's initial test run and not noticing anything. When I started it back up it was very rough and got a couple misfires and SES. It was pretty warm (only about 10 minutes had lapsed) and it almost seemed to be vapor locking a bit. I then took it for a longer highway cruise, a couple pulls, and tried to duplicate it a few times. Thus far I haven't been able to. I'm wondering if there wasn't still some air in the or something from having it all apart. We'll see...

And of course...a pic...




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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 04-22-2013 at 06:32 PM..
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Default 04-22-2013, 06:47 PM

We need to find one of these FI rail designers to run some numbers.
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Default 04-22-2013, 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Yeah...I agree and that definitely was one of my considerations. However I think we've thrown a bit of a monkey wrench in things as I highly doubt they added an extra 150-200 HP in their calculations or the e85 variable that requires much more fuel capacity. Also, who know what they did to de-performance the motor. Basically I look at it like this...

-For me to do this mod is no biggie, it's easily within my capabilities. Just needs to have close monitoring, easy enough to do.
-Worse case I have to replace the fuel rail...if so we can chalk it up as lesson learned and cross it off the list.
-So I waste a $170 bucks or so...nothing ventured, nothing gained...it's my contribution to the community that I've gleaned plenty from.

That said...too late...I already did it and have done some preliminary testing.

However, it's about 95 here today so I need to wait till later to do more so my iats aren't going through the roof and influencing testing.

My early testing shows I may very well be seeing a reduction in trims...TBD but looks promising.
AFRs are good and seem to be a bit more stable
LPFP seems to be a bit more stable as it looks a bit more like a wave now instead of all peaks and valleys.
HPFP...going to have to see how it does...seems a bit better but did take a dive on one pull...as I've been seeing so I may need to replace it...no biggie.

I did have one scare though after taking out for it's initial test run and not noticing anything. When I started it back up it was very rough and got a couple misfires and SES. It was pretty warm (only about 10 minutes had lapsed) and it almost seemed to be vapor locking a bit. I then took it for a longer highway cruise, a couple pulls, and tried to duplicate it a few times. Thus far I haven't been able to. I'm wondering if there wasn't still some air in the or something from having it all apart. We'll see...

And of course...a pic...

Lol awesome, what size did you end up boring it out to?
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Default 04-22-2013, 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vroom
We need to find one of these FI rail designers to run some numbers.
Know one? While you're at it, find one that can decode the DME as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
Lol awesome, what size did you end up boring it out to?
.0625, it's very close to the size of the inlet on the injector, although the injector port is slightly larger. So there may even be more room for improvement. I'm hoping that in going with .0625 and the total potential volume of all 6 ports remaining less than half of that of the rail...pressure drops will be minimized. Can always go larger...smaller, not so much

My other concern is that the post hpfp line may be .2 inches or so...but can the lpfp line to the hpfp really support that? Guessing we'll see some pretty good lpfp drops in pressure if that becomes an issue...so far no indication of that.



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Cool 04-22-2013, 08:10 PM

Steve.... you need to break you collar bone more often.

Good luck with this.


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Default 04-22-2013, 08:28 PM

Very interesting. I may try this. Im on 100% e85 with the Walbro 455lph so the benefits of this may be amplified with my car. Steve please update us with results and if everything looks ok ill hop on this.


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Default 04-22-2013, 08:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by az335iat
Steve.... you need to break you collar bone more often.

Good luck with this.
Hahaha...NO...my wife will kill me

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDBi
Very interesting. I may try this. Im on 100% e85 with the Walbro 455lph so the benefits of this may be amplified with my car. Steve please update us with results and if everything looks ok ill hop on this.
I will, it's definitely nice to be able to just "filler up". I don't know that my current hpfp is going to be a good model, so it may be a week or two before I have more conclusive results. I'll decide if I'll be ordering one based on tonight's results and if so, will order it tomorrow. If I do, I'll probably hold on to the old one and play with it a bit.



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Default 04-22-2013, 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Hahaha...NO...my wife will kill me



I will, it's definitely nice to be able to just "filler up". I don't know that my current hpfp is going to be a good model, so it may be a week or two before I have more conclusive results. I'll decide if I'll be ordering one based on tonight's results and if so, will order it tomorrow. If I do, I'll probably hold on to the old one and play with it a bit.
yeah it would be great to have an easy fix like this at least for stock and stock frame turbos! Its simple enough to remove the fuel rail and buy a few drill bits lol


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