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Terry @ BMS's Avatar
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Default 05-05-2010, 01:12 PM

I tend to favor flow over mass also. But the AMS is a good balance IMHO.


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TurboBullett TurboBullett is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
I'm not a fan of the extra weight or small inlet outlets. I'm sure the Independent data is fairly accurate, but once the cars have been driven hard, which is where it counts, that extra mass will do nothing if anything in the way of keeping IAT's down. It's just pure cooling and flow ability at that point. Big mass intercoolers always look better on a dyno and direct 1:1 IAT monitoring.... Because they are better, For those few short minutes before the core is soaked. Heat soak happens to any intercooler. That 'mass' advantage IMO is only temporary when driving the car aggressively. You can never get rid of the weight however and at no point does it offset those cooler pulls when the core has been sitting cold all night. Just my two cents and the reason I went AMS. I thnk and know the helix is also a great product and surely can't go wrong with it. I also have full 3" from ams ic outlets to throttle body piping. It's not an issue about wether hpf or helix can do it, I've already got it with the ams.
-when you have a larger ambient "exposed" face cooling off the heavier mass you are prolonging the cores heatsoak even further. as a matter of fact and I will crunch some numbers and try to have people run independant tests, I would be willing to bet the heavier helix will recover faster than the lighter factory height aftermarket intercoolers as the "exposed" area is so much larger and you have that much more cooling mass(ambient air) cooling the core!

The helix inlets and outlets are not small, they are the same size as the factory and aftermarket charge ***** available for the N54, I have run 2.5" piping on 700hp cars in the past!

the data does not back up some of your statements the Helix performs better in every gear than the AMS and all other FMICs that have data posted. this goes for single gear runs to multiple gear runs... all this data is on the FMIC comparison thread on the other forum! also speaking in terms of physics a higher mass of any substance in this case aluminum will take more heat(charge air) to raise its temperature 1 degree than a part of lesser mass!


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Last edited by TurboBullett; 05-05-2010 at 02:33 PM..
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Terry @ BMS's Avatar
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Default 05-05-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboBullett
-when you have a larger ambient "exposed" face cooling off the mass its not that hard as a matter of fact and I will crunch some numbers and try to have people run independant tests, I would be willing to bet the heavier helix will recover faster than the lighter factory height aftermarket intercoolers as the "exposed" area is so much larger and you have that much more cooling mass(ambient air) cooling the core!

The helix inlets and outlets are not small, they are the same size as the factory and aftermarket charge ***** available for the N54, I have run 2.5" piping on 700hp cars in the past!

the data does not back up some of your statements the Helix performs better in every gear than the AMS and all other FMICs that have data posted. this goes for single gear runs to multiple gear runs... all this data is on the FMIC comparison thread on the other forum!
I will say we have many customers running the Helix and they've all done well with it. Probably can't go wrong either way.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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klipseracer klipseracer is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboBullett
-when you have a larger ambient "exposed" face cooling off the mass its not that hard as a matter of fact and I will crunch some numbers and try to have people run independant tests, I would be willing to bet the heavier helix will recover faster than the lighter factory height aftermarket intercoolers as the "exposed" area is so much larger and you have that much more cooling mass(ambient air) cooling the core!

The helix inlets and outlets are not small, they are the same size as the factory and aftermarket charge ***** available for the N54, I have run 2.5" piping on 700hp cars in the past!

the data does not back up some of your statements the Helix performs better in every gear than the AMS and all other FMICs that have data posted. this goes for single gear runs to multiple gear runs... all this data is on the FMIC comparison thread on the other forum!
Yeah, that fmiccomparison thread was actually started by me and we've been lucky enough to have vocal vendors like yourself adding data. I will agree and say the ability to shed the heat better may very well be possible and have not tested this personally however I was about to, hence my plx iat gauge/sensor setup I'm now selling. It's possible to run 1000hp on 1" outlets with the right mods. We are trying to make things easier and streamlined. 3" to the TB does that. My z shift charge pipe even is 3" coupled with my custom 3" mandrel bend makes it consistent to the manifold.
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bnk bnk is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 02:15 PM

I don't think you can heat soak Helix in a road course due to the big frontal area and mass. Looking at the logs, the temps seem to stabilize at somewhat higher than ambients.

That being said, AMS FMIC is an excellent product too. Not quite as efficient, but I guess the pressure drop might be even less than that of Helix. I would hope them advertising / telling the pressure drop.
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Default 05-05-2010, 03:00 PM

Temps so far here in Hell Paso have reached the mid-90s. Todays IATs after driving were only a few degrees over ambient while cruising through town. Once you get to highway speed they are at ambient and slightly less. Once you get the meth going the temps get into the 50s and slowly creep back up to less than ambient.

I have the Helix.


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klipseracer klipseracer is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 03:08 PM

Sounds like the helix is a great cooler. Wish I was keeping my car longer to provide some detailed data on my ams.
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Default 05-05-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
Yeah, that fmiccomparison thread was actually started by me and we've been lucky enough to have vocal vendors like yourself adding data. I will agree and say the ability to shed the heat better may very well be possible and have not tested this personally however I was about to, hence my plx iat gauge/sensor setup I'm now selling. It's possible to run 1000hp on 1" outlets with the right mods. We are trying to make things easier and streamlined. 3" to the TB does that. My z shift charge pipe even is 3" coupled with my custom 3" mandrel bend makes it consistent to the manifold.
once we get some more data for the other fmics id really like to look into the recovery which is just as important as the ait data. I designed the helix so it doesnt sit any lower under the cowl not exp[osed to air, i tried to maximize the ambient face that is exposed to the ambient air charge. most of the other fmics add charge rows below the cowl not exposed to ambient air so they can run a taller core BUT if it is not being cooled what good is it once its heatsoaked? and lets face it looking at the data some of them heatsoak rather quickly.


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Default 05-05-2010, 04:39 PM

Speaking of intercoolers you guys can kill 2 birds with one stone and look into CP-E considering it offers an oil cooler as well for a nice price.

Its also the only company that DOESNT play with its numbers in terms of the REAL efficiency of their intercooler.
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Default 05-05-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick
Speaking of intercoolers you guys can kill 2 birds with one stone and look into CP-E considering it offers an oil cooler as well for a nice price.

Its also the only company that DOESNT play with its numbers in terms of the REAL efficiency of their intercooler.
pretty strange blanket comment about "all companies" as Helix doesn't play with any numbers and we have multiple "independant" end users and tuners who have posted the same results we have... can you post a 2-3-4 gear datalog measuring ait-rpm-boost? if possible have a boost level of 13-14 psi and test in a 55-85 degree ambient temp. thanks in advance


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(#1436)
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Mike@N54Tuning.com Mike@N54Tuning.com is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 06:06 PM

I think the Helix and AMS are both great units no point turning this into an argument or FMIC war

Mike


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(#1437)
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Default 05-05-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick
Speaking of intercoolers you guys can kill 2 birds with one stone and look into CP-E considering it offers an oil cooler as well for a nice price.

Its also the only company that DOESNT play with its numbers in terms of the REAL efficiency of their intercooler.
^
this!
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(#1438)
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Default 05-05-2010, 07:08 PM

If anyone wants to send me some Intercoolers, I will be more than happy to do some independent testing!
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Default 05-05-2010, 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
If anyone wants to send me some Intercoolers, I will be more than happy to do some independent testing!
thought about running meth before IC upgrade? Just a thought!
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Default 05-05-2010, 07:27 PM

Id rather let the IC do the combat against the temps, for now, and then add the meth later for a mega boost in affect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast
thought about running meth before IC upgrade? Just a thought!
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Default 05-05-2010, 08:02 PM

Rob,

helix IC seems to be a very good unit and since u already have the helix I would just put it in for now.
But fwiw, if u did not already have this IC, I think most of us would agree that a methanol kit will drop aits even more and will advance your timing also.

IMHO, install the IC, do a dyno with max (safe) pump gas psi then :
make some of us a few turbo kits, then:
do the Methanol and re dyno with more psi !

my 2 cents

.


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Last edited by midlife; 05-05-2010 at 08:16 PM..
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Default 05-05-2010, 09:08 PM

Rob: when are you going to dyno your car?


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klipseracer klipseracer is offline
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Default 05-05-2010, 09:46 PM

I called you today rob to talk about that. Left you a message. The number is a cell if you can text I prefer it as I am frequently busy with clients.
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Former_Boosted_IS Former_Boosted_IS is offline
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Default 05-06-2010, 02:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
Id rather let the IC do the combat against the temps, for now, and then add the meth later for a mega boost in affect.
Rob, I have done shootout style testing on 3 different intercoolers thus far. I think you are putting far to much thought into this. If you have the Helix, then install that bad boy. It has good independent data to support it.
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Default 05-06-2010, 05:01 AM

Back to the topic of Turbos!!!!


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Default 05-06-2010, 09:29 AM

i like when he doesn't reply quickly.. lets us know he is out testing, and we are getting closer and closer
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Default 05-06-2010, 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboBullett
pretty strange blanket comment about "all companies" as Helix doesn't play with any numbers and we have multiple "independant" end users and tuners who have posted the same results we have... can you post a 2-3-4 gear datalog measuring ait-rpm-boost? if possible have a boost level of 13-14 psi and test in a 55-85 degree ambient temp. thanks in advance
Since you either sell or are a vendor of helix your posts hold no water.

Helix as well as several other companies have fudged with there efficiency numbers.

This already as been proven becaues they claim 90+% efficiency which is a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

If anyone here has a background in thermal dynamics and efficiency they already know EXACTLY where im coming from.

Lot of people here are quick to jump on my criticism, but at the end of the day they figure out the truth. A majority of these companies is all a marketing scheme..... they all play the game and some are good at it.

There is a great thing about the internet, you have a gullible audience and most people are quick to jump on the bandwagon.

That said I know the helix is a nice piece, not denying that.... just telling the truth about the efficiency numbers that have been posted about that intercooler and others in this n54 market.

Dont hate the player hate the game.



The truth hurts.

Last edited by JPSlick; 05-06-2010 at 11:44 AM..
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bnk bnk is offline
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Default 05-06-2010, 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick
Since you either sell or are a vendor of helix your posts hold no water.

Helix as well as several other companies have fudged with there efficiency numbers.

This already as been proven becaues they claim 90+% efficiency which is a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

If anyone here has a background in thermal dynamics and efficiency they already know EXACTLY where im coming from.

Lot of people here are quick to jump on my criticism, but at the end of the day they figure out the truth. A majority of these companies is all a marketing scheme..... they all play the game and some are good at it.

Dont hate the player hate the game.



The truth hurts.

The efficiency depends on multiple factors. Theorethically >90% is achievable in optimum circumstances. However, Turbobullett has been talking about real world efficiencies in full acceleration over two gear changes. Over 80% efficiency figures are achieved with Helix at independent testing. CP-E has published no efficiency figures at all. No testing about efficiency is not too credibility inspiring from CP-E's part when trying to sell intercooler. Having an oilcooler attached in front of the radiator is not a good solution either. I appreciate their abilities in general, but their intercooler has no advantage compared to the competition.
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Default 05-06-2010, 12:00 PM

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/n54FMIC.pdf

Here is a an example of not fudging the numbers and efficiency from CP-E.

Anyone else wanna try me? Try page 8 BTW
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bnk bnk is offline
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Default 05-06-2010, 12:51 PM

Now I remember reading that document before. Since there was nothing extraordinary in it, I forgot having read it

I was wrong regarding them not claiming any efficiency figures. Looking at the graph they seem to claim all the efficiency figures in between 95% and 75%
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