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Default Injector/misfire problem solved - 02-01-2016, 01:36 PM

Last summer my car started idling real rough and throwing misfires and CELs on hard acceleration.
It came from Cyl 6 and when I inspected the injector I realized the bracket was broken on the side that holds 6 down.
So I replaced the injector and added new bracket, but 3 weeks later same thing happened. I again replaced it, always with new seals and decoupling rings, but 6 kept on stubbornly with same pattern. The seal would disappear off the tip and cause stutter and misfires.

Finally I installed all brand new Index 12 injectors, and when I got to 6 I noticed that it simply fell all the way into the channel without any pressure needed to seat it down. I could then wriggle it slightly as it was totally loose in there. Drove the car and it immediately shut off 6 on first hard pull!
Normally the injectors rest on the edge of the bore and the bolt and brackets push them down while the decoupler is squeezed to fill the space at the top and seal it in. So in my case there was slight leakage as the bore was somehow larger than the other cylinders. No idea why or how as I use a long large pick to pop injectors out by grabbing them under the collars. Maybe hot gases escaping somehow enlarged it, no idea.
The obvious fix is to replace the whole cylinder head with a new one, but I wasn't in the mood to invest that kind of dough. The head itself is $3,000, plus labor.
So instead I snipped the retaining clips off a second decoupler and slid it onto the injector, on top of the existing one. It then fit in the bore like the other ones and torqued down normally. The problem seems to be solved. Car is running mint.
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Last edited by Ocean; 02-01-2016 at 01:48 PM..
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Default 02-01-2016, 04:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
Last summer my car started idling real rough and throwing misfires and CELs on hard acceleration.
It came from Cyl 6 and when I inspected the injector I realized the bracket was broken on the side that holds 6 down.
So I replaced the injector and added new bracket, but 3 weeks later same thing happened. I again replaced it, always with new seals and decoupling rings, but 6 kept on stubbornly with same pattern. The seal would disappear off the tip and cause stutter and misfires.

Finally I installed all brand new Index 12 injectors, and when I got to 6 I noticed that it simply fell all the way into the channel without any pressure needed to seat it down. I could then wriggle it slightly as it was totally loose in there. Drove the car and it immediately shut off 6 on first hard pull!
Normally the injectors rest on the edge of the bore and the bolt and brackets push them down while the decoupler is squeezed to fill the space at the top and seal it in. So in my case there was slight leakage as the bore was somehow larger than the other cylinders. No idea why or how as I use a long large pick to pop injectors out by grabbing them under the collars. Maybe hot gases escaping somehow enlarged it, no idea.
The obvious fix is to replace the whole cylinder head with a new one, but I wasn't in the mood to invest that kind of dough. The head itself is $3,000, plus labor.
So instead I snipped the retaining clips off a second decoupler and slid it onto the injector, on top of the existing one. It then fit in the bore like the other ones and torqued down normally. The problem seems to be solved. Car is running mint.
Glad you solved your problem. I swapped out 3 injectors just a few days ago and the best way I found to remove them is to just pull/wiggle & pull on the threaded portion. As long as you're in a good position for leverage they come up really easy.
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Default 02-01-2016, 04:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawhiz
Glad you solved your problem. I swapped out 3 injectors just a few days ago and the best way I found to remove them is to just pull/wiggle & pull on the threaded portion. As long as you're in a good position for leverage they come up really easy.
After removing the fuel feed pipe to the injector I thread one end back onto the injector and use it as a handle to pull the injector out. Just be careful not to bend the pipe. When I replaced all 6 injectors I used the pipe from injector 1 to pull out the others so I didn't have to totally disconnect the other ***** from the fuel rail (to keep out debris).


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Default 02-01-2016, 08:26 PM

I put and engine support bar across the engine and wrap some rope down under the injector and then use the large threaded engine hook on the support beam to pull it out by twisting the handle pulling it up.


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Default 02-02-2016, 09:53 AM

I swear 90% of injector issues can be fixed with decoupling elements
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sch4400 sch4400 is offline
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Default 02-02-2016, 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
Last summer my car started idling real rough and throwing misfires and CELs on hard acceleration.
It came from Cyl 6 and when I inspected the injector I realized the bracket was broken on the side that holds 6 down.
So I replaced the injector and added new bracket, but 3 weeks later same thing happened. I again replaced it, always with new seals and decoupling rings, but 6 kept on stubbornly with same pattern. The seal would disappear off the tip and cause stutter and misfires.

Finally I installed all brand new Index 12 injectors, and when I got to 6 I noticed that it simply fell all the way into the channel without any pressure needed to seat it down. I could then wriggle it slightly as it was totally loose in there. Drove the car and it immediately shut off 6 on first hard pull!
Normally the injectors rest on the edge of the bore and the bolt and brackets push them down while the decoupler is squeezed to fill the space at the top and seal it in. So in my case there was slight leakage as the bore was somehow larger than the other cylinders. No idea why or how as I use a long large pick to pop injectors out by grabbing them under the collars. Maybe hot gases escaping somehow enlarged it, no idea.
The obvious fix is to replace the whole cylinder head with a new one, but I wasn't in the mood to invest that kind of dough. The head itself is $3,000, plus labor.
So instead I snipped the retaining clips off a second decoupler and slid it onto the injector, on top of the existing one. It then fit in the bore like the other ones and torqued down normally. The problem seems to be solved. Car is running mint.
So, you snipped red circle one???
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Default 02-02-2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sch4400
So, you snipped red circle one???
No he snipped the three tabs on the decoupling element like these


http://www.turnermotorsport.com/imag...3537564751.jpg

The tab you have circled there is to keep the injector centered DO NO CLIP THAT!!
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sch4400 sch4400 is offline
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Default 02-02-2016, 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogt.ryan
No he snipped the three tabs on the decoupling element like these


http://www.turnermotorsport.com/imag...3537564751.jpg

The tab you have circled there is to keep the injector centered DO NO CLIP THAT!!
oh. i see. thanks
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longnvu longnvu is offline
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Default 02-02-2016, 02:07 PM

My friend tried this on his 335i. So far so great!
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Default 02-03-2016, 03:18 PM

Really GREAT to hear this, Steve. Guys, I've been reporting the same problem with my 135 for a couple months on 2 different threads. Driving me crazy. Cyl#1 going out all the time, driving on 5 cylinders; no car to drive.

Ocean has been holding my hand while we tried to sort things out. Tried everything and replaced everything, and did the total swap-out dance (I know the steps). Still, same problem as Ocean. I didn't change out the injector, because even though I'd swap it with cyl#2 injector, the problem still stayed with cyl#1.

I took it to a huge and reputable German garage (all German mechanics) down the street to see if they could find something and and/or check the DME for failure. What else could it be?!

I just got the little demon back and it's running great, no codes. Muscled it up and down the highway a bit, and still okay. What did they do? They replaced the #1 bank to OEM Index-12 injectors, and changed the plugs to Bosch OEM plugs from the NGKs. That's it. $1,400.

I've been running the NGK plugs for 5 years or so ...and the plugs in the car were new NGKs! I even tran-swapped them out too, during my trouble shooting, so it couldn't have been the #1cyl plug.

WTF???

I'm guessing that my Cyl#1 had the same fault as Ocean's Cyl#6. Injector wasn't seating properly. I do remember that it did seem somewhat loose, offering less resistance than the others when pulling it out (more than once). But why didn't that injector cause cyl#2 to misfire when swapped with cyl#1? And how could the shop cure the Cyl#1 issue so easily?

I will drive a bunch of miles, put the JB tune back on 5, thrash it and see what happens. If it is indeed fixed, it will remain one of the great mysteries of all (Bimmer) time. Larry

PS: And if you need any help with any of this, don't call me!


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Default 02-04-2016, 07:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sch4400
So, you snipped red circle one???
NO! Just the 3 little clips on the decoupling ring itself. The second one below the regular one.


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Default 02-04-2016, 07:13 PM

Those decoupling rings are important as they seal the top of the injector so the air/fuel mixture isn't pushed out of the cylinder under compression. I see no downside to doubling them up the way I did. Plenty of room inside the bore. As soon as I see an injector fitting loosely in the bore before tightening it down with the bolt and bracket, then I am gonna double up on it. Beats buying and installing a new cylinder head. The decoupling rings are $8 on ECS Tuning.


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Default 02-05-2016, 10:04 AM

So you put a bandaid fix on it instead of doing the proper fix and getting the head replaced... Don't see this being that great of a situation. More of a hack fix.
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Default 02-05-2016, 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by europartconnect
So you put a bandaid fix on it instead of doing the proper fix and getting the head replaced... Don't see this being that great of a situation. More of a hack fix.
$8 decoupler > $5000 heads + labor
If it works it works

Last edited by Vogt.ryan; 02-05-2016 at 10:53 AM..
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ferocity02 ferocity02 is offline
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Default 02-05-2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
Those decoupling rings are important as they seal the top of the injector so the air/fuel mixture isn't pushed out of the cylinder under compression. I see no downside to doubling them up the way I did. Plenty of room inside the bore. As soon as I see an injector fitting loosely in the bore before tightening it down with the bolt and bracket, then I am gonna double up on it. Beats buying and installing a new cylinder head. The decoupling rings are $8 on ECS Tuning.
One downside I could see is that by using 2 decoupling rings stacked, the injector doesn't sit as far into the head as it should. The concern here would be improper fuel distribution/atomization. With the injector sitting too high, the fuel could hit the sides of the hole in which the injector sits rather than being sprayed into the cylinder. Without seeing a head and cylinder off the engine I have no idea if this would occur though.

Regardless, if it works, it works. No sense in spending the time and money on a head if this will get you by.


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Default 02-05-2016, 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferocity02
Regardless, if it works, it works. No sense in spending the time and money on a head if this will get you by.
+1
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Default 02-05-2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferocity02
One downside I could see is that by using 2 decoupling rings stacked, the injector doesn't sit as far into the head as it should. The concern here would be improper fuel distribution/atomization. With the injector sitting too high, the fuel could hit the sides of the hole in which the injector sits rather than being sprayed into the cylinder. Without seeing a head and cylinder off the engine I have no idea if this would occur though.

Regardless, if it works, it works. No sense in spending the time and money on a head if this will get you by.
Valid concern which I also contemplated. But it did push the injector all the way down so it's sitting flush. I tested by trying to push the tip of a small pick under the stainless injector tab that sits in the slot facing you. There's a nesting spot it fits into so it can't turn. And there was no gap between the head and the tab, so it was pushed all the way in.
I agree it's a hack fix, not ideal. But it's better than no fix and certainly preferable to paying $3,000 for a new head plus a few thousand in labor. It's a compromise, not a DIY recommendation.


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Default 05-04-2017, 05:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
Valid concern which I also contemplated. But it did push the injector all the way down so it's sitting flush. I tested by trying to push the tip of a small pick under the stainless injector tab that sits in the slot facing you. There's a nesting spot it fits into so it can't turn. And there was no gap between the head and the tab, so it was pushed all the way in.
I agree it's a hack fix, not ideal. But it's better than no fix and certainly preferable to paying $3,000 for a new head plus a few thousand in labor. It's a compromise, not a DIY recommendation.
Hi Ocean,

Sorry for bumping an old thread but I think I may be having the same issue as you since I've had cyl 6 misfire when WOT and EML disappears when ignition restarted and it drives fine until WOT.
(Absolutely no other fault codes can be found, other than p0306)

I've replaced coils and spark plugs so far and changed all the vacuum lines to upgraded silicon lines and installed a new chargepipe + BOV with no success.

So on the weekend I'm going to have a look at the injector to see if your fix will work or if it is even infact the problem I have.

So far, I've ordered some coupler links and a new O ring seal.

I'm struggling to find the correct Teflon tape? Can you link the one you used so I can source a similar spec tape here in the UK?

Also, any pics of how yours looked with the tape on before being fitted?

I'm really missing my 335i now and am having to use my 330d as the 'mule' is the faster one of the two currently -_-

Thanks in advance,

Brad
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Default 05-04-2017, 07:22 AM

How many miles is your car? When was the last time it was walnut blasted? The issue that is talked about here is extremely rare.


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Default 05-04-2017, 07:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogt.ryan
How many miles is your car? When was the last time it was walnut blasted? The issue that is talked about here is extremely rare.
95k Miles - can't see a walnut blasting on service history

I've got a valve cover gasket that I'm doing on the weekend also, to ensure no leaks on there as its a recommended service at 90k mark

I've also got intake mani gaskets so I can have a look in more detail over the weekend to get an idea of carbon build up

The reason I have a feeling it could be the problem described by Ocean, is the fact that there is a louder ticking coming from the Cyl6 near the firewall and this ticking came around at the same time the consistent misfire started happening between 2.5k ~ 4k rpm and it is always cyl 6.

Other than that, the car drives perfectly with 50~60% throttle or even max throttle... but you have to gradually get to max throttle so it doesn't wobble/misfire.

For example I can press on throttle and gradually go with the engine and from about 4.5/5k RPM I can put pedal to the metal and it will go, although it does seem like it's vac leaking/not on full power when WOT.

Thanks for the response also,

Brad

Edit: I'm going to have cover off later this evening when I'm back from work and will check out the retaining bracket etc and post any new info I find here

Last edited by BradCole90; 05-04-2017 at 07:45 AM..
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Default 05-04-2017, 08:08 AM

Ah I see, then it may be the wonky injector that's the problem, one piece of advice would be to make sure that the little metal tab that keeps the injector centered is not broken off to the point that when you pull the injector it falls into the cylinder. It would be hard for that to happen but it would be a royal pain in the ass to get out. Good luck keep us posted


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Default 05-04-2017, 11:42 AM

OK so bracket is still in place and all looks fine without pulling it apart.

One observation is that cyl 5 and 6 injectors have a browning on the top, this is on the circle outer on the side with the pin top to the left of the bolt going to fuel rail, all the others are clean?

I'm going to try switching the injectors but I have no spare o rings or couplers at hand, will it be OK to switch them without changing?

Cheers

Brad

Edit: I hit a pot hole hard a couple of weeks before so I was thinking it could have broken a bracket but seems not
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Default 05-05-2017, 09:02 AM

It should probably be fine, I only replaced one decoupling element on my injectors and I've had them out several times, you should be good to pull them, when you do inspect the shaft of the injector for any carbon build up, there should only be carbon on the bottom inch or so


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Default 05-05-2017, 09:47 AM

Here's what my no 6 injector looked like after getting the double compression ring with Teflon wrap. Have had no misfires or issues since for over a year now.
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Default 05-07-2017, 10:41 AM

After looking at injectors my cyl 1 and 3 is -01 and my cyl 2 is -09 and my cyl 4,5,6 are all -12 injectors


Cyl 5 and 6 had been refitted without decouplers at all -_- this has made them rattle around and become loose

I've now refitted both with Teflon tape to calm down the loose fit and have put decouplers on.

After all that, I take it for a spin, she drives beautifully and then my fan belt snapped ������ just my luck lol

Cheers for the help lads, without your posts I'm �� sure I'd still be scratching my head

This should be sticky post


Brad

Edit: also just as you warned me, the pins had snapped off both injectors that line them up. I wedged them back in wrapped in Teflon to ensure they have held in place and that has prevented them from fitting to far in/out!

Edit 2: I had absolutely no fault codes other than p0306 which is misfire in cyl 6. Incase anyone is having similar issues.
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