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Default 04-24-2013, 09:41 AM

Just looked at those CSV's side by side. I know it's limited data, but so far it looks like it helped you. You should change the future use value to monitor both 02 sensors btw, instead of just leanest.

This mod will not help fuel pressure. But it may help fueling as pressure tanks, and help fueling recover as pressure recovers. Under that assumption, it looks to be doing just that.

Both logs open side by side, I am looking at the values around 3600rpm to 4200rpm where fuel pressure tanks. When you watch it tank, you can see the AFR going higher in the log prior to the modification, it hits 15.7:1 and 17.3:1, after porting the AFR is much more consistent. It still spikes, but only to 15.5:1.

What is REALLY interesting is what's going on when the fuel pressure is completely ****. Around 6-9 on the fp pressure scaling. Prior to porting, your afr's were in the mid 13's. After porting, 10-12. The computer is accounting for **** flow at low pressure and probably increasing injector duty cycle, but with the porting they are getting much better flow even with bad pressure maybe? Meaning they are seeing closer to measured pressure and putting out more fuel? Honestly, this is so far a big success based on those two logs imo, definitely worth more analysis.

Edit: added graph. Notice the pressure drops are consistent, but with the "after AFR" trace (after porting), the AFR stays much lower.
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Last edited by v8bait; 04-24-2013 at 09:58 AM..
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Default 04-24-2013, 10:59 AM

hahaha....nice!

I had some similar thoughts...but I was actually a bit more concerned because post porting it actually overshot the target AFR. However, per an earlier discussion we had, I'm hoping we can get somewhere with this so I can run the race flash with high percentages of ethanol and target 11.5-12.

I did monitor AFRs in both banks to begin with but was satisfied they were tracking very well.
Here is an image..


This log also illustrates there is a threshold where my fuel system is unable to keep up. It was taken early in the adaption process so boost wasn't as high and the car was only running at 3.8 seconds (3500-6300rpms) when typical is 3.2-3.4. IAT's were high so I aborted the testing until later and started monitoring the LPFP to see the impact on it.

The good news and bad news is that my fuel pump obviously isn't shot, but hopefully isn't 100% and I don't think it is. While I don't mind doing an HPFP mod and swapping them back and forth, I'm hoping we can find a solution for the average joe that is a bit more DIY friendly. At least up to about 450whp with high e85 percentages.

Another potential snag at this point is the car is experiencing longer crank times after it has sat for a while. I'm still in the process of investigating the potential cause. So far I've eliminated a leaky injector and the lines from the rail to the injector but the system is depressurizing. This may be normal but the larger ports may be contributing to this and allowing it to pull more fuel from the injectors. However the other variable is that since I have the car in the garage, I leave the key in it and the LPFP may not be cycling as it does when you unlock the car...investigating this now but it still illustrates that something has changed. I still need to double check the line from the HPFP to the rail though as I had removed this too.



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Default 04-24-2013, 01:49 PM

I will be getting my hands on a hpfp soon will be opening it up and investigating. It is a broken pump but if i see anything that appears like it could be bettered i will let you guys know


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Default 04-24-2013, 02:05 PM

Nice...we'll compare notes. Mine hasn't failed but may have worn seals or whatever causing a drop in pressure...maybe we'll be able to find out what is failing and develop a rebuild/upgrade procedure. Won't be too excited to pull apart a new one, but will pull out my old one and tear it down before installing the new one. If it appears to be pretty low risk and we need specs off a known good one...I may tear in to that as well.



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Cool 04-24-2013, 02:55 PM

I would advise not going into a new pump until you look into the old one first. The working fluid in the pump is oil.
The tri-pistons compress this oil and transfer (volume) movement to the tri-bellows.

The LPFP compress the bellows with fuel from outside the bellows via the inlet fuel flow control valve.
The tri-pistons then expand the bellows.... from the inside via oil pressure.....forcing the fuel into the HP fuel rail.

If you can not easily get all the air out of the system during reassembly.... the new pump turns into junk.

I'm not saying it can't be done.... just look into the construction of the old one first.

I would also love to see the inside of the pump....hint....hint.


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Default 04-24-2013, 03:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Won't be too excited to pull apart a new one, but will pull out my old one and tear it down before installing the new one. If it appears to be pretty low risk and we need specs off a known good one...I may tear in to that as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by az335iat
I would advise not going into a new pump until you look into the old one first.
I was born at night...but not last night

Quote:
Originally Posted by az335iat
I would also love to see the inside of the pump....hint....hint.
We can work that out...I would like to have two functioning arms but three is better



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Default 04-24-2013, 08:22 PM

This is cool guys keep it up! Good job
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Default 04-25-2013, 02:18 AM

Unbelievable...I am such an idiot! I have to apologize to WDBi....

When I checked the size of the inlet...I used an allen wrench and the end of it fit all the way in...I ASSuMEd it was hollow. I was thinking about it tonight and it just didn't seem right so I removed the rail. Holy F'n ****....this is what I saw...I about fell over! Gawd I feel stupid! In my defense...part of the reason for that was two fold...first I wanted to see if we could make this a simple DIY, second...I have a broken collarbone and am trying to minimize my actions...but really...no excuse! Unbelievable!

The hole is near as I can tell, is the same size as the individual ports as I used the same needle to check and it appears to go in about the same distance. Talk about a restraint...I thought it was bad for the ports but for the inlet...holy crap. Gonna start by making it the same size as the ports...just like it was originally...only now it'll be 3 times larger. The reason I don't want to go larger right now is because I want to see if the size difference before is what led to the longer crank times. I'll know more tomorrow.
In this log...look how much things are starting to smooth out. I think we are making progress but I still need to change out my hpfp. Larger holes in the rail may continue to see improvement as well but I'm going to hold off for now.




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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 04-25-2013 at 02:25 AM..
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Default 04-25-2013, 03:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ

Before the porting...
your trims seems to be much lower and stable now than before the first porting.

but your HPFP is still very (too much ?) low...
I'm waiting for your new logs with the new HPFP.


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Default 04-25-2013, 04:33 AM

3 times larger: 500whp -> 1500whp
Should be enough for that part...
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Default 04-25-2013, 06:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnk
3 times larger: 500whp -> 1500whp
Should be enough for that part...
Not sure if it has a linear relationship like that
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Default 04-25-2013, 06:56 AM

lol that is small maybe no need to upgrade hpfp until making over 600 whp, I may do the same


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Default 04-25-2013, 07:16 AM

DIY will be great =)


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Default 04-25-2013, 07:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by r45t4m4n
Not sure if it has a linear relationship like that
Only if the efficiency would remain constant. Even if the efficiency would drop and it would be good for only 1200whp, there will be other bottlenecks before that, such as HPFP etc.
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Default fuel rail - 04-25-2013, 09:51 AM

What does V8bait think of this he should get in here!? lol...This exactly what I was talking about last week Steve I think our thread got erased or o cant see it I am old..lol but oh well you kept going that's awesome keep it up!! Just in time for when my RB's come in...yeeeeesssss!
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Default 04-25-2013, 10:28 AM

I can't wait to see what the hpfp outlet looks like!

So far I am still seeing longer crank times when the car is still warm and has sat for a short time (20min or so) When sitting over night, no longer crank times but a little stumble at first. This has all been done at e50ish.



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Default 04-25-2013, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by r45t4m4n
Not sure if it has a linear relationship like that
Actually, the quantity of flow is equal to velocity times cross sectional area, or Q=V*A

And pressure is equal to force over area, or P=F/A... you can partially assume with ideal fluids (for a rough guestimate) that P=V, which you can think of as V=F/A (not exact but close enough). As area increases, velocity goes down. Also, as area increases, pressure goes down. This is in fact true, all else equal.

In our instance however, the pump is controlling pressure, so if we increase the cross sectional area, the pressure (or velocity) will be held constant. But, due to the increase in cross sectional area, more fluid will be moved. Until the pump cannot hold pressure up at least.

Hopefully that's not clear as mud lol. With constant pressure/velocity, it's generally linear to the cross sectional area. What you are thinking about is the relationship to diameter and area, which is exponential. A=(pi)(r)(r), doubling the diameter will quadruple the flow if pressure is steady. As for power vs fuel flow, I dunno, probably not linear as you said though


Last edited by v8bait; 04-25-2013 at 10:37 AM..
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Default 04-25-2013, 10:37 AM

My car goes through spurts when it has long cranks. I thought it was E85, but then it did it on 93. I am pretty sure it's an injector/hpfp since they are original on a 2007 model year. It's getting checked out this friday since I'm lazy lol, but it might not be due to the porting.
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albertc albertc is offline
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Default 04-25-2013, 11:08 AM

you know the hpfp has warranty till 120k or so right? Get it change for free and then buy also a new 1


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Default rail - 04-25-2013, 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by albertc
you know the hpfp has warranty till 120k or so right? Get it change for free and then buy also a new 1
And he shld buy one so.....do testing on it to benefit everyone? So maybe we shld help him out a little! Not V8bait he has all the money in the world!! lol I'm talking about SteveAZ
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Default 04-25-2013, 11:40 AM

Yeah Steve, how did you manage to get a hpfp? I'd love it if they let me keep my old one if they decide to replace it.
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Default 04-25-2013, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07tundra
So maybe we shld help him out a little! Not V8bait he has all the money in the world!! lol I'm talking about SteveAZ
Hahaha...nice thought but no...I don't want that kind of pressure...get it

As to how I'm getting one, I just ordered a new one ($335 shipped)....as they say..."it's in the mail"

As to warranty....my car is not under warranty...I realize there is an extended warranty on the hpfp but if I took it in they'd surely deny warranty for multiple reasons.

-***
-High e85 content
-Only exhibits signs of decreased performance under high boost and high levels of e85. Can't really go in and tell them to look at my logs...
-and most importantly...I don't want them under the hood of my car!

Not a big deal, it's worth it if we figure this out. I'm really hoping we see the same restriction on the output of the HPFP. We can then experiment with my current hpfp and see how it responds.

So...all in all, it's just an experiment that'll hopefully provide some results but if nothing else will definitely provide some data. Since I have no business interest in this ..the information is free for all to see...no political bs...

V8...not likely you'll get to keep yours. There is a $50 core charge on mine (that I'll obviously forfeit). And my car never exhibited long crank times after installing the lpfp upgrade. It only started after doing the porting. I'm confident we'll figure it out though not to mention Vroom has provided us with a great resource so hopefully we'll hear something back on that as well.



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Default rail - 04-25-2013, 12:33 PM

[QUOTE=SteveAZ;257291]Hahaha...nice thought but no...I don't want that kind of pressure...get it

Totally understand....... but at the same-time everyone stands to benefit if it works and everyone should understand that this is totally experimental.
So when is your HPFP due in?
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Default 04-25-2013, 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Unbelievable...I am such an idiot! I have to apologize to WDBi....

When I checked the size of the inlet...I used an allen wrench and the end of it fit all the way in...I ASSuMEd it was hollow. I was thinking about it tonight and it just didn't seem right so I removed the rail. Holy F'n ****....this is what I saw...I about fell over! Gawd I feel stupid! In my defense...part of the reason for that was two fold...first I wanted to see if we could make this a simple DIY, second...I have a broken collarbone and am trying to minimize my actions...but really...no excuse! Unbelievable!

haha no need to apologize man. You are the one doing all this work for the community and i cant thank you enough for it! Like i said a few posts ago though i think the ideal way to have it however would be to have the inlet be able to flow the combined total of all the inject ports combined. That just makes sense in my head.


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Default 04-25-2013, 02:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07tundra
So when is your HPFP due in?
It should be here next week. Hoping my shoulder will cooperate for the switch, but if nothing else I'll at least get a good look at the orifices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDBi
haha no need to apologize man. You are the one doing all this work for the community and i cant thank you enough for it! Like i said a few posts ago though i think the ideal way to have it however would be to have the inlet be able to flow the combined total of all the inject ports combined. That just makes sense in my head.
I totally get where you're coming from and logically would have agreed until about 12am PT last night

Here's my thoughts...feel free to comment.

-An orifice 1/3 the size has done many documented 400+ hp runs on numerous cars. Many of which were running moderate concentrations of ethanol. E85 requires what, maybe 20% more volume?

-I can always go bigger...much harder to go smaller if there is a hiccup.

- I really want to see the hpfp orifices before proceeding.

-I want to hear back from Vroom's buddy after he takes a look at the injector and see what his recommendations are?

-There may be some relationship between the size of the orifices being uniform and the longer crank times.

-I have a couple other thoughts and hypothesis about what is going on but for now I want to sit on them for a bit till I can do more testing. I don't particularily like the taste of crow!



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