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Terry @ BMS's Avatar
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Default E85 cold start issues? - 11-11-2018, 11:27 AM

Noticed lately our white 135 is difficult to start on straight E85 when temps get below 50F (not common in CA!) so I've been reworking the cranking fuel tables. Anyone else have a similar issue? If so email me could use some help testing the changes.


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Default 11-11-2018, 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Noticed lately our white 135 is difficult to start on straight E85 when temps get below 50F (not common in CA!) so I've been reworking the cranking fuel tables. Anyone else have a similar issue? If so email me could use some help testing the changes.
My 335i doesn't have that much issue like your 135i. I'll test it a bit more later when it gets real cold.


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Default 11-11-2018, 09:44 PM

Yeah that happens alot here in canada (I used to run it by the barrell until we got a pump here where I live), I'd love to help but currently my m2 is not equipped to run E85, but I remember cobb made some changes to their ignition and crank tables to make it start easier on subarus maybe reading up on that will give you a place to start.

Anyways good luck, I hope you figure it out so I can run E85 in colder weather when it comes time to get PI.


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jyamona jyamona is offline
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Default 11-12-2018, 07:20 AM

If you set the tables properly in the tune, this is a non-issue no matter the temperature. Fuel (Start) is cranking, and then Warm-up Enrichment is post start, open loop enrichment, used until the lambdas are up to temp and it switches to closed loop.

The Warm-up enrichment was not added to the regular xdf yet, but it's in the FF xdf, you can copy and paste the xml to the normal xdf. Just be sure to grab the pump gas one and not the E85 table, because that doesn't exist in a stock logic rom


Enjoying the new tables discovered and the XDF progress made? if you'd like. Every bit is appreciated!
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Default 11-12-2018, 07:30 AM

Yes - it's always been an issue for me in Wisconsin. Even on warmer days, it'll stumble for a second. Anything below 50*F and it's angry. I'm putting pump gas in this week and storing it for the winter though.


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Default 11-12-2018, 08:51 AM

Been running between E60 and E70 for a few months and lately in this sub 50 degree weather it's stumbled for a few seconds. Usually clears up pretty quickly though. i think my 950RPM idle helps. I think I would have a lot more trouble at stock idle.

One morning recently in the 30s running E70, when I already had auto climate control set to 75 prior to starting and the AC button was activated, the car really stumbled on itself and died a few times before I could apply some throttle in neutral and get things back to normal.


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Default 11-12-2018, 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
If you set the tables properly in the tune, this is a non-issue no matter the temperature. Fuel (Start) is cranking, and then Warm-up Enrichment is post start, open loop enrichment, used until the lambdas are up to temp and it switches to closed loop.

The Warm-up enrichment was not added to the regular xdf yet, but it's in the FF xdf, you can copy and paste the xml to the normal xdf. Just be sure to grab the pump gas one and not the E85 table, because that doesn't exist in a stock logic rom
I've had my tune set up the way explained above. Never have an issues on E85(no blend). Starts right up.
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Default 11-12-2018, 09:34 AM

Stumbling is one thing, just not starting is another. Looking to correct any cold weather starting issues we have on the OTS BEF maps. But it only gets so cold in CA.


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Default 11-12-2018, 09:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Stumbling is one thing, just not starting is another. Looking to correct any cold weather starting issues we have on the OTS BEF maps. But it only gets so cold in CA.
You just need to wake up earlier. When I leave the house it's 40*


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Default 11-12-2018, 02:43 PM

I’m having the same problem starting as it has been going through the whole crank cycle and still not starting. Also stumbles when it does start for a few seconds. I’m in NY so it’s been pretty cold here but I’m mhd only.
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Ron Vogel Ron Vogel is offline
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Default 11-12-2018, 08:19 PM

I walk out of work to my car at 3:30am...so it better start! Had no problem last night on E40 thankfully
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Default 11-14-2018, 06:22 AM

It will start just may take a second. E40 was completely different for me when starting, had no issues but the e85 is tough.
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dyezak dyezak is offline
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Default 11-16-2018, 02:09 PM

Justin (v8bait) used my car for testing his cold start e85 crank settings last year. Flawless single crank startups even at 18F last winter on full e85.
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Default 11-20-2018, 08:30 AM

I'm currently on the OTS ST BEF and gave up on starting this morning - temps were upper 30's where I am. Still need testing?
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Default 11-21-2018, 09:42 AM

Definitely! Email me the BEF you have loaded and let's try a few things.


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Default 11-22-2018, 09:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyezak
Justin (v8bait) used my car for testing his cold start e85 crank settings last year. Flawless single crank startups even at 18F last winter on full e85.
Agreed!
it's 19 degrees here now on ThanksGiving morning and my car started with e85 no issues at all,no stumble thanks to Justin"v8bait's" tune with cold tables.


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Default 11-24-2018, 08:18 AM

Ya know, you guys could always just ask what table values I'm using, and I could probably be enticed to share them...
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Default 11-24-2018, 09:52 AM

Mine does it when I put to much e-85 .It cranks always at the second start .Whether
is not an issue . I'm from Miami.If change to 93 no problem.
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Default 11-24-2018, 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
Ya know, you guys could always just ask what table values I'm using, and I could probably be enticed to share them...
The hardest part has been finding a car that has starting issues to test table changes. But you've got some good values I'd be happy to throw them in our BEF and throw a Kudos your way.


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Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 11-24-2018, 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
Ya know, you guys could always just ask what table values I'm using, and I could probably be enticed to share them...
What table values are you using? It'd be great to have this information available and much appreciated


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Default 11-25-2018, 01:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
The hardest part has been finding a car that has starting issues to test table changes. But you've got some good values I'd be happy to throw them in our BEF and throw a Kudos your way.
Would you make one for n55 as well? Mine starts when cold just longer cranks and rough for a little while I'd love to run e85 all year if possible


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Default 11-25-2018, 05:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
Ya know, you guys could always just ask what table values I'm using, and I could probably be enticed to share them...
That would be extremely nice of you, it would help a lot of people as more and more are moving to full e85.
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Default 11-25-2018, 08:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
The hardest part has been finding a car that has starting issues to test table changes. But you've got some good values I'd be happy to throw them in our BEF and throw a Kudos your way.
Sure. You need the table address for warmup enrichment factor, it's in the FF XDF's you can just copy the address and scaling from those to the normal XDF's.

Technically you could increase the enrichment factor a lot at warmer temps too but I've never found the lean conditions at startup a problem when it's warm, only when cold. And unlike some people say, with full E85, as it gets colder outside, you need more than the typical 40% increase compared to pump gas. Anyone that see's negative temps and uses E85 can tell you that.

Tested these down to -10*F without issue on 90% ethanol.
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Last edited by v8bait; 11-30-2018 at 11:20 AM..
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Default 11-30-2018, 11:15 AM

I'll make this even easier for your customers:

Adding cold-start by using your normal XDF, and the FF XDF:
1) Open your backend with the XDF for your DME version and modify "fuel (start)" to generally match the large table posted above, doesn't have to be identical (or copy/paste from attached xls sheet), save the .bin
2) Now, use the FlexFuel XDF available here https://github.com/dmacpro91/BMW-XDFs instead of the normal XDF, and modify the "warm-up enrichment factor" to match values above for the small table (again you may copy/paste from the xls sheet attached), save the .bin
3) Flash your new backend and profit by not being late when it gets chilly anymore because your car will now start perfectly every time.
4) Buy me a beer with all the extra money you will be making.

*NOTE* Do not change other tables using the FlexFuel XDF unless you know what you're doing, only change the "Warm-up enrichment factor".

Alternate method, adding tables to your normal XDF:
If you want to add the table to the normal XDF, I also attached a .txt with I8 and IJ addresses, add these to your XDF file and then you don't need to use the FF XDF to change the single table. If you want me to do all the work for you I will but I'll charge you something for it. Enjoy ya'll
Attached Files
File Type: txt Warm-up enrichment table locations.txt (2.7 KB, 32 views)
File Type: xls Cold start values.xls (26.5 KB, 32 views)
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Default 11-30-2018, 11:29 AM

Thanks Justin! Looking forward to Terry throwing this coding in the BEFs so I can flash it up. These 20 degree mornings running full E85 have been rough.


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