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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 03-23-2019, 07:45 AM

Are you sure you went the wrong way? Higher bias settings raise overall PID value and are equivalent to raising FF (except FF is global and bias is per RPM). Im thinking we want to lower FF since I have overboost. Still, Iím happy to try anyway.

Since my PWM/WGDC is so low FUA might work but itís been my experience it also lowers target. Itís been a while so Iíll give it a go as you suggest.

Do you have any FUD bits set?


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-23-2019, 07:43 PM

LOL! You're right... I was looking at the log and watching FF adjusting, but didn't look at average FF. It came down into tuning range again. What I've been focusing on more lately is timing and the reasoning behind the throttle closures. The B58 is such a pain in the butt at times. The boost spikes mirror the closures, which is normal as it's measured before the throttle body. Basically, when the throttle closes you will see a spike due to this.

I'm starting to consider that there's still an octane issue. I know our cars crave/need octane when boosting higher. I always figured that the water would be enough. I reviewed some of my past logs and noticed the same issues until I put in an octane booster and changed meth safety to 1, removing the timing watch on the JB4.

FUA should shift the FF curve down and not the Targets. Basically forcing FF to tune to under it's normal level. You may not reach target boost, but FF will learn in and you'll get an overall boost curve that's just under target, but matching the target curve. That's where I've found the B58 to be happiest. I keep mine about 0.5-1.5psi below target. Keeps throttle closures at bay and maximizes timing.

Let's see what your new logs show... we'll go from there. I have no FUD set. I only mentioned it as we may need to lock in average/global FF. We don't want to be chasing our tales on that. However, it's not needed at this point. Keep the info coming... it's all good in the end.
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 03-24-2019, 07:21 PM

Ok, two different logs, each labeled appropriately. Log 1, FUA 10 and bias at 40 through midrange and 50 up top (as directed earlier). Second log was just to provide a contrast - FUA 5, bias at 45 in mid range then 50 up top.

FUA 10 eliminates the throttle closures almost completely at the expense of a couple PSI (as expected). FUA 5 is still smooth, a little more power, but the occasional closure occurs. I haven't compared FF to WGDC to see if the bias should be tweaked further.

This is still a 50/50 WMI mix.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 190324_1331_FUA10_40BIAS.csv (32.1 KB, 14 views)
File Type: csv 190324_2155_FUA5_45BIAS.csv (16.7 KB, 15 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-24-2019, 08:54 PM

1st log is definitely the best settings. Still some room for improvement, but this is the best log I've seen on your setup thus far. Trims are also settling, but they are a bit high still. Please use the FUA10 settings with the following updates/changes:

3500-4500rpms = 35's
5000-5500rpms = 40
FOL = 20

I know that this is dropping the curve, but we'll get it back by either raising the additive or dropping FUA, once we see that boost has stabilized compared to target. Again, the FUA10 was a big help and we're seeing that in decreased closure. However, it's still a little to tight to target from what I've seen the B58 like. FF is also still learning in, but it's in a much better range. This is good as it will allow more adaptation to changing driving conditions and keep the driving experience equal in most conditions. That's the difficult achievement with the B58.

Lastly, I still see some timing drops. Nothing severe and it may be related to boost curve and closures still. The new bias/FOL changes should help with that and get us a clean fully open throttle log. Once FF learns in, we should see little to no closures, great trims and a nice boost to target curve... where boost is slightly under target along the entire curve. If timing doesn't come back and stay strong, we'll have to add in 1/2 a can of the Boostane and retest. We need to ensure max timing as we tune or else you'll be leaving power on the table and that's not why we're here. LOL!
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Last edited by JBoe; 03-24-2019 at 09:00 PM..
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 03-25-2019, 07:42 AM

Thank you again, I made the settings changes. Spent the morning pulling (not logging yet) to get FF to learn in - it's moving up. That's good, because the initial result is that boost is way down, esp down low, and it's just not very thrilling like this. I am committed to the process so this is ok, we'll keep adjusting... and a higher FF may help.

If we need to get fuel/octane up, I'm also fine with raising the meth mixture back to 80/20 or 100/0 methanol. I suspect it will help based on the fact that throttle closures were a bit better a couple weeks ago when the meth content was higher.

Logs coming soon!


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 03-25-2019, 07:03 PM

Well I shouldn't speak to soon with the fickle queen B58. The runs from this afternoon show much improved power, even to the point of too much (e.g. in some cases, throttle closures have crept back in). I swear, all I changed between this morning and this afternoon was the time of day. Even the ambient air temps were roughly the same.

The attached log will be perfect to illustrate what's going on - in some runs the throttle closed and you can observe wobbly DME BT and PID; the last long run was really nice and I saw the best timing I've ever seen. I pushed REALLY hard - near 7k in 3 and then over 6k in 4th. Made up to 13.5 to 14 degrees of timing.

It's hard to get excited because duplicating this last result from run to run (let alone from day to day) has proven to be impossible thus far!

Check out the entire log to get an idea of what I mean.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 190325_1854_FUA10_FOL20_40BIAS.csv (34.9 KB, 11 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-25-2019, 08:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
Well I shouldn't speak to soon with the fickle queen B58. The runs from this afternoon show much improved power, even to the point of too much (e.g. in some cases, throttle closures have crept back in). I swear, all I changed between this morning and this afternoon was the time of day. Even the ambient air temps were roughly the same.

The attached log will be perfect to illustrate what's going on - in some runs the throttle closed and you can observe wobbly DME BT and PID; the last long run was really nice and I saw the best timing I've ever seen. I pushed REALLY hard - near 7k in 3 and then over 6k in 4th. Made up to 13.5 to 14 degrees of timing.

It's hard to get excited because duplicating this last result from run to run (let alone from day to day) has proven to be impossible thus far!

Check out the entire log to get an idea of what I mean.
Ok, let's stop for now and test an octane theory. It will depend on what version of Boostane you have.

Premium = Add 4oz at fill up.
Professional = Add 2.5oz at fill up.

Adding a little more is ok, but try to get at least 3 tanks worth of gas out of the can you have. Then burn enough gas to see the needle move off full to ensure you've got the octane booster to the engine. (First tank only) Then it's time to log again and share. This is an attempt to ensure that timing isn't dropping due to the octane. It really shouldn't be as running 50/50 should be giving you the equivalent of 100 octane. Boostane doesn't just raise octane, it provides a more controlled flame front as well. We'll know early in the first tank if it's helping.
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 03-25-2019, 08:47 PM

Ok this can be done. Do you think, as a step prior, I should try an 80/20 meth to water ratio? I realize meth doesn’t have the same octane/inhibiting qualities as water, but it should provide some cooling in addition to fuel. Or are trims good and we just want octane?


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-26-2019, 07:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
Ok this can be done. Do you think, as a step prior, I should try an 80/20 meth to water ratio? I realize meth doesnít have the same octane/inhibiting qualities as water, but it should provide some cooling in addition to fuel. Or are trims good and we just want octane?
I don't think so. That would likely result negatively. Trims are good. We just want to add octane for now and see what happens.
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Default 03-27-2019, 06:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBoe
I don't think so. That would likely result negatively. Trims are good. We just want to add octane for now and see what happens.
Ok no worries. Left WMI as is.

I have premium not pro so I added 1/2 cup as instructed by you. This is exactly 1/4 can. According to their app, with our M240i (roughly) 13 gallon tank, this will result in 98 octane - I start with 93 pump.

Got it in the tank after full fill-up and revv’d high for a bit in neutral since the gas station is a minute away from home and could not get on an open road for testing. Will start runs/pulls tomorrow. Keeping fingers crossed.

Man this Boostane stuff smells.


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-27-2019, 09:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
Ok no worries. Left WMI as is.

I have premium not pro so I added 1/2 cup as instructed by you. This is exactly 1/4 can. According to their app, with our M240i (roughly) 13 gallon tank, this will result in 98 octane - I start with 93 pump.

Got it in the tank after full fill-up and revvíd high for a bit in neutral since the gas station is a minute away from home and could not get on an open road for testing. Will start runs/pulls tomorrow. Keeping fingers crossed.

Man this Boostane stuff smells.
Perfect... it definitely has a unique smell. lol... It works though.
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Turboh Turboh is offline
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Default 03-28-2019, 11:59 AM

Boostane uses manganese as an additive. It is a metal, will not burn, and will deposit on your valves, plugs, oxygen sensors and catalyst. It works but be careful. ��


2017 340iX with M track handling package, 6 speed manual, BMS intake, and JB4 piggyback; EWG and FP wires; 93 octane; and fun with Honda S2000; Ninja Z1000.
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-28-2019, 03:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Turboh
Boostane uses manganese as an additive. It is a metal, will not burn, and will deposit on your valves, plugs, oxygen sensors and catalyst. It works but be careful. ��
There's lead in the water, but we drink it. There's toxins in the air, but we still breath it. At some point, we accept the term "acceptable limits" and move on with life. Plus, all the true octane boosters use some form of product we will see as unfit. Yet it works and they are still in business because of it. I've used it for almost two years... no issues. I've known some that have used it for over 60k miles... no issues. Well, almost none. The orange soot sucks a bit, but orange or black... it's still soot. Lol.

There was a time when injecting water into your engine was considered CRAZY!
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 03-29-2019, 09:03 PM

Ok, got two new logs for ya. I suspect that with the first log, I may not have been fully "mixed" yet - as the tank wore on, the performance stabilized. Throttle closures got better. Don't think I'm fully out of the woods, because the timing still sucks and still drops at times. However there is evidence that throttle plate control is starting to occur more often, and that timing is at least mildly improving.

As a summary, here are the settings:
- Map 7
- 50/50 WMI
- Boostane in the tank, effective octane 98
- FUA 10 (not 0)
- Additive 40, Spray at 9 PSI
- Bias set to 35 thru 45k RPM; 40 for 5000-5500k, then 50 onward
- FOL is 20
- PID gain is default (10)
- FF is hovering around 68

The first log was from the late morning - temps around 17 C
Second log from afternoon - temps at 22-24 C

Thanks again for all the help thus far!
Attached Files
File Type: csv 190329_1322_FUA10_FOL20_METH_BOOSTANE.csv (54.2 KB, 13 views)
File Type: csv 190329_1435_FUA10_FOL20_METH_BOOSTANE.csv (35.1 KB, 13 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-30-2019, 05:54 PM

So we've gotten a lot better from what I'm seeing. Timing is stabilizing and showing steady rise. Trims look great and steady. It will take some time for the ECU/DME to start opening back up timing. Stick with the Boostane as we move forward. Same dosage per fill up. Very few throttle closures as there's still some overboost occurring.

Next Changes:
1.5k-3.5k = 25
4k-4.5k Bias = 30
5k Bias = 35
5.5k Bias = 45
6k-7k Bias = 55
FUA = 15
Boost Safety back to 26... somehow it's now 25?
Meth Safety = 1 (Eliminates timing from WMI target adjustments... we'll watch timing ourselves as we're raising octane with Boostane.)

Overall... the car should be feeling much better. The logs are some of the best I've see thus far. It's close to being where we want it. Should only get better as we're going and then we'll be able to increase additive.
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 03-30-2019, 07:30 PM

Thanks for the analysis. Boost safety is my fault. I did it so the math is easier to read on the fuel gauge after scaling (common factor of 5 rather than 2) but Iíll switch it back.

FUA 15 will further offset the WGDC downward. Is that what we want? It will impact boost down. I donít want the car to feel too muted - unless your point is to get timing stable and then open it back up?

Much appreciated!


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 03-30-2019, 10:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
Thanks for the analysis. Boost safety is my fault. I did it so the math is easier to read on the fuel gauge after scaling (common factor of 5 rather than 2) but I’ll switch it back.

FUA 15 will further offset the WGDC downward. Is that what we want? It will impact boost down. I don’t want the car to feel too muted - unless your point is to get timing stable and then open it back up?

Much appreciated!
We need to get your boost slightly under target to keep closures from occurring. Don't worry about your boost levels yet. You're still at additive 40 with plenty of room to raise that. If you keep bouncing above target, you'll get closures and affect timing. The car should be feeling more consistent as were tuning and boost is starting to be under control. We're headed in the right direction.

Last edited by JBoe; 03-30-2019 at 11:28 PM..
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 04-01-2019, 08:54 PM

I had some pretty good runs this morning with the new settings and promptly ran out of meth. *sigh* Logs tomorrow!


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 04-01-2019, 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
I had some pretty good runs this morning with the new settings and promptly ran out of meth. *sigh* Logs tomorrow!
I'll take that as a good sign.
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 04-02-2019, 07:50 AM

Here are some logs from this morning after the car had warmed up, back to 100% meth flow (50/50 mix). Air temps 8-9 C.

Today there aren't very many closure-free 3rd gear pulls. It was not smooth at all, you'll see that throughout the log.

I'm going to list some observations. They are non-scientific, so maybe they are a clue and maybe they aren't, but I've noticed patterns at least that may be worth mentioning.

- 4th gear pulls are smoother than 3rd gear pulls
- FF has learned waaay up, almost the max by now. I suppose this is to be expected, given the FUA of 15 and biases down in the low end. I don't know if this matters.
- The 2 good runs I had yesterday were without 100% meth flow, around 60-80%. This morning, things were smoother after the refill while the flow was still 60-80. Once the air was out and flow back to 100, I noticed the throttle started to get choppy. Obviously have had some good pulls in the past even at 100% flow, so I dunno... but it makes me wonder if I need smaller nozzles.
- It sometimes makes a difference when I start a pull. Lower RPM starts tend to produce a better result overall, although not always. Likewise, higher RPM starts tend to produce the wobbling, although not always.

For the record, I did switch to distilled water at your advice.

Cheers!
Attached Files
File Type: csv 190402_1037_FUA15_FOL20_METH_BOOSTANE.csv (45.0 KB, 12 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 04-02-2019, 11:12 PM

We pushed FUA to far from the looks of it. We'll get FF back within range by going back down on that and use the bias if further changes are needed across the curve. I do see FF trimming higher and starting to learn in the curve, but it's maxing out. Your last pull started to return to normal.

FUA to 10 and relog. It will take a bit for FF to relearn back in. It may be best to manually reset it to 60 and let it go from there. Once things settle out, log and repost. Thank you.
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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default 04-03-2019, 07:07 PM

Did as you suggested (keeping new bias values but reverted FUA to 10). I moved FF to 50 and now it's learning up. Much better than FUA15 but not out of the woods yet... but maybe we're back on track? 2 logs attached.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 190403_0944_FUA10_FOL20_METH_BOOSTANE.csv (35.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: csv 190403_1543_FUA10_FOL20_METH_BOOSTANE.csv (15.9 KB, 10 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 04-03-2019, 09:06 PM

Are you getting a lot of wheel spin in 3rd? I ask, because I do and my 3rd gear pulls look similar when I get spin and the traction control kicks in a bit. Curious if that's what's happening in some areas. In your 4th gear pull things seem to mellow out, which would make sense towards the wheel spin theory. If you aren't, please be sure to log in sport+ at least. If you can, hold down the DTC button until it shows "DTC OFF" when you log.

FF is still learning. The curve is getting better. If we can get it to be more stable, we'll start taking FUA back. Timing has vastly approved and is coming in consistently. Try the following and keep driving to let FF learn in. Take a few days of driving and doing pulls before posting.

6000rpm+ bias = 50

Basically, we're at the point where it's just trying to make the curve stable compared to target. If we still see some slight spikes, we may increase PID to 12ish. Then, once things look stable, we should be able to reduce FUA a little more. This is the final stages though. Keep the meth full and the boostane flowing. lol.
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Default 04-04-2019, 04:52 PM

No spin in 3rd. The closures aren’t caused by traction activity- and most of my logs are Sport+. There was probably one bump I hit in a log that triggered a traction closure in one pull but by and large we should be ok there.

I made the changes and will let things settle for a bit - took some preliminary logs to see what is happening. After setting FF to 50, it’s moving up. Makes sense because boost is way under target. Let’s see what happens. Closures still occurring but a bit better than before. I’m wary of FF getting too high again as that’s been the trend so I’ll keep an eye on it.

Thanks


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 04-04-2019, 07:25 PM

It's the drops that I can't explain, but I see them when they shouldn't be there. Essentially, as boost reaches target... the JB4 makes ECU PSI equal DME BT. We're generally not close to target with current settings so we should see that when comparing target vs boost and ECU PSI vs DME BT. Yet there's instances where the trends don't match and we see ECU PSI/DME BT equal or surpass and then throttle closure occurs.

This is the correct action, but there's no explanation behind why it's happening. It shouldn't be happening. Thus, I thought there may be wheel spin occurring creating a rapid rise in boost. It's weird??? Let's see what happens after a bit of driving, but if such things keep occurring, we may need to get BMS involved for more comprehensive review. Maybe I'm missing something.
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