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lamboworld lamboworld is offline
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Default No LPFP sensor on Z4 35i. What does this mean? - 10-28-2014, 06:45 PM

So, I have played around with the fuel pump on my Z4 to run E85 over the past 6 months. I had some noise issues using with the Walbro 455 so I switched to the AEM E85 pump. I have been using this pump for the past few months with no problems and it seems to do a good job but there is something that I cannot figure out.

Unlike all of the N54 platform BMW's the Z4 35i does not have a LPFP sensor. What does this mean? Does fuel system in the Z4 work differently than the other N54 cars? I am curious because I wonder if the DME will only allow so much psi no matter what pump is in the car.

The setup is different on the Z4 than the 135 and 335. The bucket assembly has to be installed from underneath the car rather than from the top.

I am just curious about why BMW would not have included the LPFP sensor.

Any ideas?
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Default 10-28-2014, 08:02 PM

I don't know...its weird! On real OEM they show one but then say "feed line without sensor" and then don't list the sensor.

Have you done a visual verification?

If there is no LPFP sensor, that may mean the PWM control is based on load or some other criteria.

Given your 450 was whining, it makes me think that it may have been running at a fixed duty cycle rather than one based on demand. That may have been due to a couple of reasons. However, given that we can't really get our hands on a Z4...its all speculation at this point.



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Default 10-28-2014, 08:59 PM

As I understand it they just don't have one. Must run fixed PWM full time on the low pressure side.

Interestingly I'm starting to wonder if the F30 N55 platform has them as my requests for low fuel pressure keep returning 72psi with no variation. The S55 definitely has one.


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Default 10-28-2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
As I understand it they just don't have one. Must run fixed PWM full time on the low pressure side.

Interestingly I'm starting to wonder if the F30 N55 platform has them as my requests for low fuel pressure keep returning 72psi with no variation. The S55 definitely has one.
Strangely when they went to the new cam driven HPFP, they did away with the LPFP sensor and now have a "Pulse generator". The PG is actually the same part number as the CPS. But you are correct...for the S55 they went back to an LPFP sensor and kept the "pulse generator".

Speaking of which I was a bit perplexed when I saw this in your notes for the New M3/M4 JB4...

"5) Added low fuel pressure monitoring under "FP L". Expect to see around 72psi under normal circumstances. FYI when testing higher amounts of E85 we've found high pressure drops before low pressure drops indicating no immediate need for low pressure pump upgrades in this platform."

...they're running dual HPFPs and you're already tapped? Something doesn't seem right.



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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 10-29-2014 at 12:40 AM..
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Default 10-28-2014, 11:06 PM

Intresting...does this mean upgrading lpfp wont make it flow more? I will find out soon enough if customs clear my pump.


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Default 10-29-2014, 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkiedm4
Intresting...does this mean upgrading lpfp wont make it flow more? I will find out soon enough if customs clear my pump.
Sorry...I should have (and now have) clarified. That quote was pertaining to the new M3/M4.



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Default 10-29-2014, 01:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Sorry...I should have (and now have) clarified. That quote was pertaining to the new M3/M4.
Yes I just wondered if its more of logging issue or if this will interfere the walbro to flow more when I add more ethanol so a functional issue.


F21 M140i - 100-200: 6.95
Audi TTRS - 100-200: 4.47 60-130: 5.16
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Default 10-29-2014, 02:43 AM

It's definitely an issue for logging but won't inhibit the flows. The Walbro will flow more given the same voltage (or duty cycle) than the stock pump. In your case, approximately 50% more.



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Default 10-29-2014, 02:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
It's definitely an issue for logging but won't inhibit the flows. The Walbro will flow more given the same voltage (or duty cycle) than the stock pump. In your case, approximately 50% more.
Tnx for the feedback. I still hope the pump comes in before friday. I have my car booked in then. First thing I will do is up my Ethanol content and shoot some logs


F21 M140i - 100-200: 6.95
Audi TTRS - 100-200: 4.47 60-130: 5.16
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Default 10-29-2014, 02:54 AM




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Video of our Stage 2 LPFP upgrade installation.

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Default 10-29-2014, 08:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
...they're running dual HPFPs and you're already tapped? Something doesn't seem right.
I have not looked closely at the high pressure setup but I can see in the logs it won't hold pressure above a certain point.

Granted, this is maybe ~100whp more than stock and around E40, so a good deal more volume than stock. At ~75whp over stock with E30 it seems to hold full pressure.


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Default 05-18-2016, 05:35 AM

Is it not possible to retro fit a LPFP sensor into the Z4?
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Default 05-18-2016, 08:34 AM

You could probably replace that line with one from a 135i or 335i and then just monitor it with a gauge. Haven't really looked in to it.



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Default 10-07-2016, 11:47 AM

Any update on the Z4 low pressure side of things?

I am loosing HPFP pressure above 5500rpm on E65 (dropping to 600psi). I just bought the 335 fuel line with the low pressure sensor and plan to install this weekend...just not sure if I can hook a gauge to the stock 335 sensor or if I need to use an aftermarket sensor. Trying to determine if I need the Fuel-It stage 2 lpfp or a new hpfp.

Anyone know how the stock 335 sensor ohms correlates to pressure?
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Default 10-07-2016, 03:44 PM

If u have the 335 line, I would plum a mechanical fuel pressure gauge which are all over the Internet. Fuel injection pressure around 3.5-4.0 bar for testing



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Default 06-16-2017, 06:17 AM

What's prohibiting us from doing a full retrofit fully intigrating the lpf sensor into the dme like the rest of the n54 cars? And can these cars still be properly tuned if the pwm remains static? I'm about to install a duel walbro setup with a Hobbs switch. I'm just curious if the capability of my n54 is diminished because of the lack of a low pressure fuel sensor?


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dwspen01 dwspen01 is offline
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Default 06-16-2017, 07:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharliesN54
What's prohibiting us from doing a full retrofit fully intigrating the lpf sensor into the dme like the rest of the n54 cars? And can these cars still be properly tuned if the pwm remains static? I'm about to install a duel walbro setup with a Hobbs switch. I'm just curious if the capability of my n54 is diminished because of the lack of a low pressure fuel sensor?
Unfortunately, I cannot answer your question but I have a Z4 35i and installed the 335i Low Pressure Fuel line with the sensor fitting and installed a sensor that sends a 0-5V signal to a P3Cars vent gauge. I also installed the Fuel-It Stage 2 pump. My fueling has improved but pressures still drop above 6300 rpm. HPFP drops to ~700psi and LPFP drops to ~35psi with Hexon RR600s, E65 and 18-20psi measured with the P3Cars boost gauge, not MHD as I understand it is not as accurate.

Are you installing both Walbros in tank or is one inline out of the tank? Fuel-It's website mentions that you cannot install an inline pump with their Stage 2 pump.

I am interested in your setup as I would like to get to 23-25psi (~600rwhp).
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Default 06-16-2017, 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwspen01

Are you installing both Walbros in tank or is one inline out of the tank? Fuel-It's website mentions that you cannot install an inline pump with their Stage 2 pump.

I am interested in your setup as I would like to get to 23-25psi (~600rwhp).
I'm installing both walbro's in tank. Ideally one should be driven dynamically via PWM and the second pump via activation through a hobbs switch.

I'll be running JPworkz 6266, jb4/bef, CPE PI with FPR and return line.

I'm curious if anyone can chime in on how the DME tell the pump to increase pressure?


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Default 09-24-2017, 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharliesN54
What's prohibiting us from doing a full retrofit fully intigrating the lpf sensor into the dme like the rest of the n54 cars? And can these cars still be properly tuned if the pwm remains static? I'm about to install a duel walbro setup with a Hobbs switch. I'm just curious if the capability of my n54 is diminished because of the lack of a low pressure fuel sensor?
Software. Example, INA0S on the Z4 is not the same as INA0S on 335is . Same goes for IJE0S, IKC0S, IMC0S, IME0S and IKC0S which are older software for the Z4.

Now what I did sometime back in order to raise the boost ceiling on the Z4 is flashed an IJE0S with MHD from a 3 series (in order to flash COBB IJE0S) and my Z4 was looking for the sensor and kept throwing codes for a failed LPFP.

Got tired of the fuel code and went back to the Z4 specific software that doesn't look for a LPFP sensor.

The LPFP system on the Z4 does not work the same as the other N54 cars as I perceive it.. IMO its a waste to upgrade the Z4 stock LPFP as I have yet to see the upgrade solution perform better than the stock LPFP without PI. Yes indeed the upgrade solution "can" outflow the factory pump but it doesn't in the Z4 environment unless some sort of supplement is added. There are inhibiting factors that are not taking advantage of the LPFP upgrade that no one has solved or shared.

I can run E60 just fine on the stock Z4 fueling system. In fact I've put down over 500 whp on stock fueling system a while back.


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Default 09-24-2017, 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharliesN54

I'm curious if anyone can chime in on how the DME tell the pump to increase pressure?
Scalars and Fuel Pressure Target based on "actual load" the DME sees


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Default 09-25-2017, 11:07 AM

Low pressure sensor coming soon for those with Fuel IT PI and a JB4...


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Default 10-20-2017, 09:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ
The LPFP system on the Z4 does not work the same as the other N54 cars as I perceive it.. IMO its a waste to upgrade the Z4 stock LPFP as I have yet to see the upgrade solution perform better than the stock LPFP without PI. Yes indeed the upgrade solution "can" outflow the factory pump but it doesn't in the Z4 environment unless some sort of supplement is added. There are inhibiting factors that are not taking advantage of the LPFP upgrade that no one has solved or shared.

I can run E60 just fine on the stock Z4 fueling system. In fact I've put down over 500 whp on stock fueling system a while back.
From these comments, especially the ones at the beginning of the quote, I'm wondering why Fuel-It created a Z4-specific LPFP upgrade? Would be great to get some more elaboration on this.

Personally I'm amazed the Z4 LPFP flows much better than the other N54 platforms - doesn't make much sense to me.

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Default 10-21-2017, 04:56 AM

No LPFP just means no Pulse width modulation. That just translates to the Z4 pump flowing at 100%, 100% of the time. While you may perceive it flowing better I assure you it does not as it's the identical pump as every other n54 powered e series. Plus it's fairly common to see n54 powered cars make about 500 on the stock fuel system.

I am single turbo (6266) running on a e93 tune and about 20lbs of boost I started to run out of fuel. On a e85 tune I had nothing past 17lbs. Obviously it's subjective based on the mods and the size of your turbo and how much air your flowing but in my experience on single turbo N54's it was the same scenerio as in my 335.

Currently I run dual walbros, deleted the fuel pumps internal fuel pressure regulator, and run a return from my PI, to an external fuel pressure regulator to a return line that feeds through the fuel pump hat to the opposite side of the tank.

IMO if you want to make anything past 500 is an absolute necessity.


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Default 10-24-2017, 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharliesN54
No LPFP just means no Pulse width modulation. That just translates to the Z4 pump flowing at 100%, 100% of the time.
It is not flowing 100% all the time. If so fueling trims would have remote calibrations from other N54 cars. In fact BMW set them identically the same in the group of B30 and B30TO models

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharliesN54
While you may perceive it flowing better I assure you it does not as it's the identical pump as every other n54 powered e series. Plus it's fairly common to see n54 powered cars make about 500 on the stock fuel system.
Please do show us another N54 running a complete stock fueling system on E60 fuel making about 500 whp . It is absolutely not a common thing among N54 cars. It is common for 430-460 with garbage torque but it wont last long, so that why they have to upgrade the LPFP

The Z4 with upgraded turbo on E45 is rated 550 whp / 600wtq on E45, stock fueling, "flash only". I know this cause I tuned the car

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharliesN54
IMO if you want to make anything past 500 is an absolute necessity.
IMO, I deal with more Z4 cars around the world than practically any other tuner. The HPFP would need attention first IF the LPFP is already healthy.


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Default 05-13-2019, 02:49 AM

sorry to bring up this old thread but I am running into issues with boost targets being low and I am wandering if its due to this lpfp sensor issue.


I have tried all the MHD stage 1 and stage 2 and stage 1+ and stage 2+ maps. the car pulls hard with these maps but my boost target is very low. usually 14 and tapers down to 11's and 10's very quickly. even on stage 2+ E30 map I was targeting 14 and 12psi. car was pulling very hard but boost was very low compared to what others are getting in 335 and 135. Why is my Z4 targeting low boost?


I have now just installed a jb4 and same thing? I thought let me try the JB4 and see what happens.


Also I can't install a pump back end map because it complains about a lpfp sensor and throws an engine light as soon as I start the car so I have to run JB4 on its own with no back end flash.
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