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Default 02-05-2019, 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tegxsi
I removed the pink piece inside since it's so tall and not allowing the connectors to mate. Maybe my connector wasn't assembled correctly or the incorrect insert went into mines?
Do you have a pic of how it should look?

BCM is already installed and everything snapped together without any issues.
You're supposed to just slide it towards the edge of the connector so they can mate. But, if it's working it's working.


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Default 02-06-2019, 06:33 AM

Couple jb4 neewbie questions. First, what dictates what map I can/should use, im assuming it's dependent upon fuel but I don't see any recommendations on what fuel to use per map or anything else. Second, it looks like the jb4 need constant connection to the obd2 port so I'm assuming I will no longer be able to log via VCDS? And lastly, are there any dragy numbers for an RS3 with the jb4, not just the TTRS? Let me know, thanks guys!
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(#128)
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Default 02-06-2019, 07:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hckymstr19
Couple jb4 neewbie questions. First, what dictates what map I can/should use, im assuming it's dependent upon fuel but I don't see any recommendations on what fuel to use per map or anything else. Second, it looks like the jb4 need constant connection to the obd2 port so I'm assuming I will no longer be able to log via VCDS? And lastly, are there any dragy numbers for an RS3 with the jb4, not just the TTRS? Let me know, thanks guys!
You unfortunately wont be able to log with the VCDS unless its something non related to power adding that you want to see. The channels currently logged by the JB4 are good enough for tuning purposes so you can shoot those over and we can see how the car is running. The maps are relative to the octane more than hardware. At this point up to map 2 is good with 91, map 3 and 4 is ok for 93 and further up you will need a ethanol mix or race fuel.
At this point its well worth sending logs to me at George@burgertuning.com and I can help select the best map for the car and hardware.
We will start getting dragy numbers soon from clients to see what they doing out in the field with a RS3. Our RS3 is at 6000ft altitude so the number wont be a good indication. Typically the improvements on the TT RS should be the same on the RS3 albeit a few splits slower.


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(#129)
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Default 02-06-2019, 07:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
You unfortunately wont be able to log with the VCDS unless its something non related to power adding that you want to see. The channels currently logged by the JB4 are good enough for tuning purposes so you can shoot those over and we can see how the car is running. The maps are relative to the octane more than hardware. At this point up to map 2 is good with 91, map 3 and 4 is ok for 93 and further up you will need a ethanol mix or race fuel.
At this point its well worth sending logs to me at George@burgertuning.com and I can help select the best map for the car and hardware.
We will start getting dragy numbers soon from clients to see what they doing out in the field with a RS3. Our RS3 is at 6000ft altitude so the number wont be a good indication. Typically the improvements on the TT RS should be the same on the RS3 albeit a few splits slower.
Thanks alot George for the fast response!! Now just curious on the main burgertuning website under the group 9 purchase page, that dragy data for the ttrs, what map was that running and what fuel?
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Default 02-06-2019, 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hckymstr19
Thanks alot George for the fast response!! Now just curious on the main burgertuning website under the group 9 purchase page, that dragy data for the ttrs, what map was that running and what fuel?
Check page 2 in this thread. Run was with E30 over 91 octane map 4.
On page 4 there is 91 results as well.


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(#131)
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Ross_T_Boss Ross_T_Boss is offline
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Default 02-06-2019, 11:00 AM

A few questions after seeing posts from Terry + George on the facebook group, now this is a complete product in terms of the harness etc. I appreciate it's early days.

My end game is Stage 2, '18 TTRS, with the capability to max out the benefits of an E30-35 blend, run E65 on an E85 map, and easily revert to 99RON as required. I'm looking at DIY flash options for flexibility, but the offerings currently are 98/Race/E85 - nothing for the mid blends of Ethanol. Appreciate there's not much demand (I have wondered how a 100-octane race file would fare with E30 in the tank).

Initially I want to stay 'Stage 1' for a good while and make changes incrementally, with the ability to benchmark on a stock map to gauge improvement on a local track. Also I'll be experimenting with some fuel blend options, planned on logging with VCDS to health check.

I can see JB4 would be a better logging system, easy to analyse on the fly, complete with safety nets that would react faster than I ever could. It could replace Stage1 completely for me and potentially add the ability to use mid-grade Ethanol blends on flash maps for 93/100/E85 from other suppliers.


Questions:

You already have a map that will handle E30-E35 or race fuel. Great. Does it just add more boost or are you also running more timing? Will you have a map intended to get a bit more out of E30 (or do you feel that's already pushes as far as it should)?

Any plans to incorporate what you've done on other platforms,with a virtual sensor and timing/boost adjustment according to the map?

Do you intend to support the JB4 be used in conjunction with Stage 1/2 flash maps as a flex-fuel option, e.g. allow use of E30 on a flash 93/100 AKI file by allowing more fuelling, or inversely back off an E60-85 map for use with E30-45 for example? Appreciate that's getting a bit more complicated and maybe would require more individual logging + maps.
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Default 02-06-2019, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross_T_Boss
A few questions after seeing posts from Terry + George on the facebook group, now this is a complete product in terms of the harness etc. I appreciate it's early days.

My end game is Stage 2, '18 TTRS, with the capability to max out the benefits of an E30-35 blend, run E65 on an E85 map, and easily revert to 99RON as required. I'm looking at DIY flash options for flexibility, but the offerings currently are 98/Race/E85 - nothing for the mid blends of Ethanol. Appreciate there's not much demand (I have wondered how a 100-octane race file would fare with E30 in the tank).

Initially I want to stay 'Stage 1' for a good while and make changes incrementally, with the ability to benchmark on a stock map to gauge improvement on a local track. Also I'll be experimenting with some fuel blend options, planned on logging with VCDS to health check.

I can see JB4 would be a better logging system, easy to analyse on the fly, complete with safety nets that would react faster than I ever could. It could replace Stage1 completely for me and potentially add the ability to use mid-grade Ethanol blends on flash maps for 93/100/E85 from other suppliers.


Questions:

You already have a map that will handle E30-E35 or race fuel. Great. Does it just add more boost or are you also running more timing? Will you have a map intended to get a bit more out of E30 (or do you feel that's already pushes as far as it should)?

Any plans to incorporate what you've done on other platforms,with a virtual sensor and timing/boost adjustment according to the map?

Do you intend to support the JB4 be used in conjunction with Stage 1/2 flash maps as a flex-fuel option, e.g. allow use of E30 on a flash 93/100 AKI file by allowing more fuelling, or inversely back off an E60-85 map for use with E30-45 for example? Appreciate that's getting a bit more complicated and maybe would require more individual logging + maps.
Hi,

We uncertain at this point if we will have the fueling capacity to go higher than E30-35 without supplemental fueling modifications.
The ECU has a very dynamic timing system with a octane check each time you start the car. With the E30-35 it adjusts the timing curve and in turn with the JB4 the ethanol also allows for more aggressive maps to be used. At a certain point there wont be any benefit to adding more ethanol without increasing the timing chart past the ECU adaption range. We will evaluate dynamic ethanol tuning but on this platform at this stage of testing it is less needed since the ECU is so dynamic.
Staying stage 1 will allow for more E content vs a car with full hardware that is already using part of the fueling capability due to engine efficiency.
On our side what we can do is via logs suggest the best map for what you are using and advise at which point the mix is too high. If need be we can also run a custom map to best suite the car.


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(#133)
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Default 02-06-2019, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hckymstr19
it looks like the jb4 need constant connection to the obd2? And lastly, are there any dragy numbers for an RS3 with the jb4, not just the TTRS? Let me know, thanks guys!
I havenít even had a look for the OBD port in the RS3, is it in the typical position under the dash?
Does the jb4 come with an OBD port connector block, I didnít see one in the pics.

I have a Dragy and hope to have a jb4 installed in a couple of weeks so Iíll run some numbers.
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(#134)
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Default 02-06-2019, 02:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
Hi,

We uncertain at this point if we will have the fueling capacity to go higher than E30-35 without supplemental fueling modifications.
The ECU has a very dynamic timing system with a octane check each time you start the car. With the E30-35 it adjusts the timing curve and in turn with the JB4 the ethanol also allows for more aggressive maps to be used. At a certain point there wont be any benefit to adding more ethanol without increasing the timing chart past the ECU adaption range. We will evaluate dynamic ethanol tuning but on this platform at this stage of testing it is less needed since the ECU is so dynamic.
Staying stage 1 will allow for more E content vs a car with full hardware that is already using part of the fueling capability due to engine efficiency.
On our side what we can do is via logs suggest the best map for what you are using and advise at which point the mix is too high. If need be we can also run a custom map to best suite the car.
Few questions on this.

How is the car being maxed out on E30 when other tuners consistently do E85? It has port and direct injection already...

Do you just mean the car maxes out on E30 since more power cannot be pushed as timing is within the stock ECUs adaptations?
- essentially you make the same power on E30 vs E85? Since timing is maxed on stock maps, and boost can only go so high?

Also noticed map 6- is a 6psi increase, looks to be the max, judging by Terry's stock log of 15-16psi, we would see roughly 21-22psi max from a jb4 only car? I believe stg1 flashes get to the 24psi area, and stg2 flashes just throw some more timing at it.

Looking at the pros and cons of this vs a flash. I have JB4 on my 335i n54 along with all other bolt-ons and a custom flash, I run E54 on average but like being able to go full E85 for events.

Are you guys looking at doing fueling control on the TTRS/RS3? Or is the car already auto adapting to E30?


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(#135)
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Default 02-06-2019, 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrder
Few questions on this.

How is the car being maxed out on E30 when other tuners consistently do E85? It has port and direct injection already...

Do you just mean the car maxes out on E30 since more power cannot be pushed as timing is within the stock ECUs adaptations?
- essentially you make the same power on E30 vs E85? Since timing is maxed on stock maps, and boost can only go so high?

Also noticed map 6- is a 6psi increase, looks to be the max, judging by Terry's stock log of 15-16psi, we would see roughly 21-22psi max from a jb4 only car? I believe stg1 flashes get to the 24psi area, and stg2 flashes just throw some more timing at it.

Looking at the pros and cons of this vs a flash. I have JB4 on my 335i n54 along with all other bolt-ons and a custom flash, I run E54 on average but like being able to go full E85 for events.

Are you guys looking at doing fueling control on the TTRS/RS3? Or is the car already auto adapting to E30?
The limitation with the E85 is that the JB4 does not alter the duty cycle. On other models we have back end flashes that allow for this. The platform is still early days for us so not sure how far it will evolve. Sales is obviously a driver of this.
The boost profiles are similar to the flash tunes although some hit high torque values early in the rpm range but the taper is similar.
The advantage with this is when remove the car is totally stocked and never touched. With a flash tune on the Audi even when returned to stock there is evidence that it was tuned.


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(#136)
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Myrder Myrder is offline
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Default 02-06-2019, 06:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
The limitation with the E85 is that the JB4 does not alter the duty cycle. On other models we have back end flashes that allow for this. The platform is still early days for us so not sure how far it will evolve. Sales is obviously a driver of this.
The boost profiles are similar to the flash tunes although some hit high torque values early in the rpm range but the taper is similar.
The advantage with this is when remove the car is totally stocked and never touched. With a flash tune on the Audi even when returned to stock there is evidence that it was tuned.
Gotcha. Makes sense. So either way great product since if you do flash jb4 allows easy logging and still has solid boost control maps.


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Default 02-06-2019, 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrder
Gotcha. Makes sense. So either way great product since if you do flash jb4 allows easy logging and still has solid boost control maps.
Out of interest here is a log on my stock RS3 in map 6. Its just short of 23 psi. Will jack the map up a bit over the next few days and see if there is any value in running higher than that in the midrange.



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tegxsi tegxsi is offline
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Default 02-06-2019, 07:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
Out of interest here is a log on my stock RS3 in map 6. Its just short of 23 psi. Will jack the map up a bit over the next few days and see if there is any value in running higher than that in the midrange
IAT look pretty high. I assume a better intercooler will help with timing pull?
Is this with E30?


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Myrder Myrder is offline
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Default 02-06-2019, 07:49 PM

Log looks good!


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Default 02-07-2019, 04:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tegxsi
IAT look pretty high. I assume a better intercooler will help with timing pull?
Is this with E30?
Same run going into 5th. Its on 93 with some octane booster.
IAT keep climbing so cooler will be a major benefit, I reckon its should be first mod hardware wise. There is slight timing adaption but not a issue as the average timing is still high.



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Default 02-07-2019, 07:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
Same run going into 5th. Its on 93 with some octane booster.
IAT keep climbing so cooler will be a major benefit, I reckon its should be first mod hardware wise. There is slight timing adaption but not a issue as the average timing is still high.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong becuse it's on my phone and I'm colorblind haha, but isn't the IAT the teal colored line? Which is correlating to like 15 on the left Y axis? What am I missing?
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Default 02-07-2019, 07:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hckymstr19
Maybe I'm reading this wrong becuse it's on my phone and I'm colorblind haha, but isn't the IAT the teal colored line? Which is correlating to like 15 on the left Y axis? What am I missing?
Correct. In order to keep the chart compact in terms of scaling you x10 for temp in F.


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Ross_T_Boss Ross_T_Boss is offline
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Default 02-07-2019, 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
Hi,

We uncertain at this point if we will have the fueling capacity to go higher than E30-35 without supplemental fueling modifications.
The ECU has a very dynamic timing system with a octane check each time you start the car. With the E30-35 it adjusts the timing curve and in turn with the JB4 the ethanol also allows for more aggressive maps to be used. At a certain point there wont be any benefit to adding more ethanol without increasing the timing chart past the ECU adaption range. We will evaluate dynamic ethanol tuning but on this platform at this stage of testing it is less needed since the ECU is so dynamic.
Staying stage 1 will allow for more E content vs a car with full hardware that is already using part of the fueling capability due to engine efficiency.
On our side what we can do is via logs suggest the best map for what you are using and advise at which point the mix is too high. If need be we can also run a custom map to best suite the car.
Thanks for the reply George.

I understand - from the other comments in this thread, one should buy the JB4 on the merits of what it does not, the market for TTRS/RS3 isn't that big and as such you can't invest quite so much into it.

That said, seeing you guys' recent choice in cars I suspect there will be an element of personal interest to ensure the platform does move forward


A few comments, please put me right if these are incorrect or a bit too presumptuous at this time:

So the quotes on running E30-35 on the current JB4 maps, that's all done on stock fuelling. So it makes sense that the more you inject the less headroom there is for blends, so some logging and analysis is required to find the best compromise. Am I right to say then, that you could run E30-35 quite safely on a stock map, and have that as your failsafe (i.e. run E30 on Map5 which will then drop to Map0 in case of issue - and the stock map will be fine with that, assuming it's not fuel quality issue of course)?

If so - I think that satisfies my questions on what this can do and certain warrants running it instead of a Stage 1 map initially, and I'll concentrate on intake and charge temp efficiencies. Again, appreciate that in itself will need monitoring to ensure fuel trims aren't maxed on a cold winter day with less intake restrictions.

The fact you're available on this forum and will help with a tweaked map for a specific car/fuel if required is great. I could in theory run a few blends on a given map, check logs, then forward what I want to run with for review. If it's clean potentially get a slightly more aggressive map to try.

With a mapped car - if I have a flash for say Stage 1+ on 93, it would be feasible to use JB4 to get a bit more out of it for an E30 or race gas, as they will have worked the fuelling for increased headroom (hopefully)? Same as it would with OEM, just there's an unknown in what they have done to achieve the fuelling, it may well have less. That said, probably you will be running say +1-2psi rather than +5-6psi; in theory you can have a flashed ECU/TCU with a JB4 running a map that doesn't really add much boost, but adjusts timing to get more from a better fuel?
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tegxsi tegxsi is offline
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Default 02-07-2019, 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
Same run going into 5th. Its on 93 with some octane booster.
IAT keep climbing so cooler will be a major benefit, I reckon its should be first mod hardware wise. There is slight timing adaption but not a issue as the average timing is still high.
I've been monitoring IAT long before JB4 with a P3 gauge. Stock IC gets heatsoaked easily. APR IC was my first mod. I noticed that power output is more consistent with the upgraded IC.

Going back to the 4th gear part of the log, Did the throttle close for a moment?


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Default 02-07-2019, 08:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tegxsi
I've been monitoring IAT long before JB4 with a P3 gauge. Stock IC gets heatsoaked easily. APR IC was my first mod. I noticed that power output is more consistent with the upgraded IC.

Going back to the 4th gear part of the log, Did the throttle close for a moment?
Yes, on boost onset. ECU will do this to assist with boost control.


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Default 02-07-2019, 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross_T_Boss
Thanks for the reply George.

I understand - from the other comments in this thread, one should buy the JB4 on the merits of what it does not, the market for TTRS/RS3 isn't that big and as such you can't invest quite so much into it.

That said, seeing you guys' recent choice in cars I suspect there will be an element of personal interest to ensure the platform does move forward


A few comments, please put me right if these are incorrect or a bit too presumptuous at this time:

So the quotes on running E30-35 on the current JB4 maps, that's all done on stock fuelling. So it makes sense that the more you inject the less headroom there is for blends, so some logging and analysis is required to find the best compromise. Am I right to say then, that you could run E30-35 quite safely on a stock map, and have that as your failsafe (i.e. run E30 on Map5 which will then drop to Map0 in case of issue - and the stock map will be fine with that, assuming it's not fuel quality issue of course)?

If so - I think that satisfies my questions on what this can do and certain warrants running it instead of a Stage 1 map initially, and I'll concentrate on intake and charge temp efficiencies. Again, appreciate that in itself will need monitoring to ensure fuel trims aren't maxed on a cold winter day with less intake restrictions.

The fact you're available on this forum and will help with a tweaked map for a specific car/fuel if required is great. I could in theory run a few blends on a given map, check logs, then forward what I want to run with for review. If it's clean potentially get a slightly more aggressive map to try.

With a mapped car - if I have a flash for say Stage 1+ on 93, it would be feasible to use JB4 to get a bit more out of it for an E30 or race gas, as they will have worked the fuelling for increased headroom (hopefully)? Same as it would with OEM, just there's an unknown in what they have done to achieve the fuelling, it may well have less. That said, probably you will be running say +1-2psi rather than +5-6psi; in theory you can have a flashed ECU/TCU with a JB4 running a map that doesn't really add much boost, but adjusts timing to get more from a better fuel?
Correct. If surpass the fueling ceiling and the car goes lean the JB4 will map switch you to the safety map which is 8 in the case of this model.
The flash guys increase the duty cycle and activate the secondary injectors which are only used in part throttle OEM.
Yes, flashed ECU will give more timing if its a ethanol type file. Most guys are quoting E70 minimum which gives leeway for quality at the pumps.
Looking at what we doing currently I don't think the turbo has 5-6psi room over what we doing with the JB4. If anything with a stacked situations users will have around 2-3psi range to add over the stack if the octane allows.
In terms of logs for what ever testing you want to do you can email me all day long as that is what we here for.


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Ross_T_Boss Ross_T_Boss is offline
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Default 02-07-2019, 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by George @ BMS
Looking at what we doing currently I don't think the turbo has 5-6psi room over what we doing with the JB4. If anything with a stacked situations users will have around 2-3psi range to add over the stack if the octane allows.
In terms of logs for what ever testing you want to do you can email me all day long as that is what we here for.
Sorry, that wasn't clear from me, what I meant is that I would expect 5-6psi from OEM plus JB4, but when 'stacked' that would be much less if at all.

I meant to ask would you still recommend the BCM module for solid control, even if I just want to run more timing on Ethanol and keep boost the same or (max 2-3psi)?

Moot point as I'm thinking yes, because I think this would delay me getting a flash by about 6-12 months, so it's a given for me. But maybe would be redundant after that.

I would then log with map 0 on the new flash map, before looking at pushing boundaries with E15> blends and see where the new ceilings are.

I'll drop a mail re: logistics to the UK.

Cheers,
Ross
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Default 02-07-2019, 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross_T_Boss
Sorry, that wasn't clear from me, what I meant is that I would expect 5-6psi from OEM plus JB4, but when 'stacked' that would be much less if at all.

I meant to ask would you still recommend the BCM module for solid control, even if I just want to run more timing on Ethanol and keep boost the same or (max 2-3psi)?

Moot point as I'm thinking yes, because I think this would delay me getting a flash by about 6-12 months, so it's a given for me. But maybe would be redundant after that.

I would then log with map 0 on the new flash map, before looking at pushing boundaries with E15> blends and see where the new ceilings are.

I'll drop a mail re: logistics to the UK.

Cheers,
Ross
I hear you. Possibly the BCM might not be redundant on the flashed car. Lots of guys are asking for per gear boost control and that might be needed for that.


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RSthree RSthree is offline
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Default 02-07-2019, 02:05 PM

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Originally Posted by George @ BMS
Correct. In order to keep the chart compact in terms of scaling you x10 for temp in F.
Is there a post/discussion somewhere on how to read and interpret the log chart. I have a basic understanding but would be keen to learn more.

Iím assuming you can select / isolate some of the graph data to make it easier to read, looking at it on my iPad it can be hard to discern some of the colours.
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tegxsi tegxsi is offline
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Default 02-07-2019, 02:33 PM

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Originally Posted by RSthree
Is there a post/discussion somewhere on how to read and interpret the log chart. I have a basic understanding but would be keen to learn more.

Iím assuming you can select / isolate some of the graph data to make it easier to read, looking at it on my iPad it can be hard to discern some of the colours.
I had a hard time with some of the colors but got used to them after a while. I'm used to viewing datalogs but this thread helped me a bit:
Logging Parameters and their Meaning - N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion


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