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theadwrighty theadwrighty is offline
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Default B58 ** Hesitation at low throttle - 02-10-2017, 01:21 PM

M140i 6MT JB4 Map 2 with BCS 200CPSI Sports *** on 99 fuel.

Having some major issues with the JB4 with the setup above. Had the sports *** installed today and it's come out the garage with the following 2 issues.

- Flat Spot
Between 3.3-4K rpm on WOT the there is a major flat spot/large reduction in acceleration. This is backed up by the fuel gauge boost gauge mod needle dropping slightly. Holding WOT it then opens up fully afterwards.

- >4rpm Closed throttle to WOT providing no power. If over 4K rpm at partial or closed throttle to wot the car doesn't really accelerate. If wot applied gently it does accelerate but not very well. The fuel boost gauge goes to its max which is way higher than it does normally.

Selected Map 1 and the same effect.

Selected map 0 and no flat spot or hesitation.

Will upload logs tomorrow.

This along with the shift bog is really making me lose faith in the Jb4.
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HitmanHearns HitmanHearns is offline
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Default 02-10-2017, 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty
E40 is a strong mix, I'd imagine the fuel pump can't keep up with that.

I had my M140 on the dyno at the weekend running JB4 and ******* with 99 octane fuel (UK 99Ron) It pulled 430bhp 508lb/ft. With JB4 off it pulled 380bhp 425lb/ft.

Figures aside I logged the runs and the logs look very good, holding good boost all the way with 18.5psi mid to higher up. When looking at the trims higher up they was around 34-37. Going off the log I'd almost say it could have a touch more boost.

So I started looking at logs, on most 340's also running ******* and map 2, the trims are pretty much maxed (50) all the time, I've even seen cars doing a bit less boost than mine running pretty maxed fuel trims.

The UK/Euro spec M140's seem to be doing solid boost very easy with sensible fuel trims. I don't know how the M140/240 differs from the MPPK but I'm pretty sure in saying it differs from the normal 340/440 and has more fuel available.

I can happily post my logs or email them to anyone.

If anyone has any JB4 map 2 logs then send them over, also JB4 map 2 and MPPK would be good to compare with too.


You mentioned 430bhp with JB4 and 99 octane. That's about what Terry hit using 93 octane and JB4 only (379rwhp) on a 340i. Unless you meant 430rwhp?
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HitmanHearns HitmanHearns is offline
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Default 02-10-2017, 01:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by theadwrighty
M140i 6MT JB4 Map 2 with BCS 200CPSI Sports *** on 99 fuel.

Having some major issues with the JB4 with the setup above. Had the sports *** installed today and it's come out the garage with the following 2 issues.

- Flat Spot
Between 3.3-4K rpm on WOT the there is a major flat spot/large reduction in acceleration. This is backed up by the fuel gauge boost gauge mod needle dropping slightly. Holding WOT it then opens up fully afterwards.

- >4rpm Closed throttle to WOT providing no power. If over 4K rpm at partial or closed throttle to wot the car doesn't really accelerate. If wot applied gently it does accelerate but not very well. The fuel boost gauge goes to its max which is way higher than it does normally.

Selected Map 1 and the same effect.

Selected map 0 and no flat spot or hesitation.

Will upload logs tomorrow.

This along with the shift bog is really making me lose faith in the Jb4.

What firmware are you running?
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theadwrighty theadwrighty is offline
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Default 02-10-2017, 01:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitmanHearns
What firmware are you running?
The most recent, only updated it last week in preperation for this.
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theadwrighty theadwrighty is offline
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Default 02-11-2017, 05:55 AM

Got several logs today and it definitely shows what I'm feeling but to a greater extent than first thought.

All runs done with DSC off.

Car is m140i, JB4 Map 2, BCS 200Cpsi sports *** 99RON fuel, 6MT, OAT 5C.

Couldn't get the shift bog as there was no traction at all, spinning strong in 3rd at times.

I have more logs but this one seems quite obvious.

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HitmanHearns HitmanHearns is offline
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Default 02-11-2017, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by theadwrighty
Got several logs today and it definitely shows what I'm feeling but to a greater extent than first thought.

All runs done with DSC off.

Car is m140i, JB4 Map 2, BCS 200Cpsi sports *** 99RON fuel, 6MT, OAT 5C.

Couldn't get the shift bog as there was no traction at all, spinning strong in 3rd at times.

I have more logs but this one seems quite obvious.


That's not a log that's a graph. Attach the log (its in cvs format). Message me if you got any questions.
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theadwrighty theadwrighty is offline
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Default 02-12-2017, 03:29 AM

Gents,

2 logs below for the issues stated on the other screen.

I'll PM terry with them now.

OAT 3-5C, M140i, JB4 Map 2, BCS Sports ***, 99 RON, 6MT. No codes at all from car, ran fine before the Sports ***.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 170211_1157 3+4Gear.csv (7.2 KB, 150 views)
File Type: csv 170211_1207 3rd only.csv (4.7 KB, 169 views)
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BASELINE BASELINE is offline
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Default 02-12-2017, 04:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by theadwrighty
Gents,

2 logs below for the issues stated on the other screen.

I'll PM terry with them now.

OAT 3-5C, M140i, JB4 Map 2, BCS Sports ***, 99 RON, 6MT. No codes at all from car, ran fine before the Sports ***.
I'm having a similar throttle cut issue. I'm thinking perhaps due to the maps being developed on stock ** cars, when the back pressure is reduced as dramatically as installing a high flow "*****" or "***** free" pipe the Turbo might be overshooting the targets causing the TC, but it's just a guess.
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KD07 KD07 is offline
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Default 02-12-2017, 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BASELINE
I'm having a similar throttle cut issue. I'm thinking perhaps due to the maps being developed on stock ** cars, when the back pressure is reduced as dramatically as installing a high flow "*****" or "***** free" pipe the Turbo might be overshooting the targets causing the TC, but it's just a guess.
I believe I am having the same problem you're talking about. It doesn't happen everytime, or even that often at all, but when it does, I notice that I have the pedal to the floor and the car is hesitant to apply power initially, or sometimes pulls back after initially applying power. I'm assuming it is the same throttle cut issue you mentioned. My car is completely stock besides jb4 and BMS intake.
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m123 m123 is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 02:16 AM

I have also problems with power cut and sometimes also with limp mode since I have installed my 300cell ********. Maybe a map could be developed for cars with **.


F32 440i JB4
F11 550i N63tu JB4
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theadwrighty theadwrighty is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 02:16 AM

KD07 and BASELINE, what are your setups?

I'm hoping there is a quick fix otherwise I'm going to push for a refund on this Sports ***. Why pay 650 for something thats slower and didn't even fit!).
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BASELINE BASELINE is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 04:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by theadwrighty
KD07 and BASELINE, what are your setups?

I'm hoping there is a quick fix otherwise I'm going to push for a refund on this Sports ***. Why pay 650 for something thats slower and didn't even fit!).
JB4 (5e firmware)
ER 4.5 inch ** (no *****)
BMS intake
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Shorty Shorty is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 06:12 AM

Sounds like a few people have issues running **'s. Mine was/is also slightly hesitant running a **.

I think if everyone having issues runs some logs and sends to Terry then we can get somewhere, it's such a new platform I suppose everyone is still learning.
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BASELINE BASELINE is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 06:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty
Sounds like a few people have issues running **'s. Mine was/is also slightly hesitant running a **.

I think if everyone having issues runs some logs and sends to Terry then we can get somewhere, it's such a new platform I suppose everyone is still learning.
100%. It's all very new and all of us including the tuning community are all on the learning curve. I think perhaps due to the maps being developed on stock ** car when decreasing airflow restriction at the front and back end of the Turbo the ECU is hitting the fuel hard deck and closing throttle is its way of decreasing airflow, and a times it's drastic enough where you can feel the "pulsing" of the power fluctuating. From what I understand the throttle position slight fluctuations are a normal thing built into the DME programming as a control of sorts; and when it's the "normal" kind you can't feel it. I also understand that with a flash that could be programmed out. What we are seeing, at least me... is that at times these throttle cuts are way beyond the normal controls.

I kind of feel like the right pedal is Forrest Gumps box of chocolates...ya never know what you're gonna get. Some runs the car will run 13-14 psi and feel quick, others it pulls like a raped-ape at 17psi without issue, then sometimes the power feels like a rollercoaster, and there is the random limp mode that keeps you at around 7psi until you shift gears.. There is definitely an inconsistency with delivery, but again I think it's the fuel cap to blame for much of it. But just on this mornings commute, zipping in and out on the highway the car at one point ran through 4th so hard at 17 or so psi without issue, then shortly after felt less eager yet still quick at 13. All within 5 min.

Last edited by BASELINE; 02-13-2017 at 06:46 AM..
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theadwrighty theadwrighty is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 09:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BASELINE
100%. It's all very new and all of us including the tuning community are all on the learning curve. I think perhaps due to the maps being developed on stock ** car when decreasing airflow restriction at the front and back end of the Turbo the ECU is hitting the fuel hard deck and closing throttle is its way of decreasing airflow, and a times it's drastic enough where you can feel the "pulsing" of the power fluctuating. From what I understand the throttle position slight fluctuations are a normal thing built into the DME programming as a control of sorts; and when it's the "normal" kind you can't feel it. I also understand that with a flash that could be programmed out. What we are seeing, at least me... is that at times these throttle cuts are way beyond the normal controls.

I kind of feel like the right pedal is Forrest Gumps box of chocolates...ya never know what you're gonna get. Some runs the car will run 13-14 psi and feel quick, others it pulls like a raped-ape at 17psi without issue, then sometimes the power feels like a rollercoaster, and there is the random limp mode that keeps you at around 7psi until you shift gears.. There is definitely an inconsistency with delivery, but again I think it's the fuel cap to blame for much of it. But just on this mornings commute, zipping in and out on the highway the car at one point ran through 4th so hard at 17 or so psi without issue, then shortly after felt less eager yet still quick at 13. All within 5 min.
Baseline, I think this covers it spot on, the inconsistency is the annoying part. I went out for a hoon, mainly 4th gear between 3-5k rpm (6MT) and the power got so much the neck hurt after a while. Consistently hitting 17psi. But, on other pulls in 3rd and 4th the ecu was closing the throttle during WOT from 98% to 46%! Feels like the car stops, it doing this on average 3 times per gear means the car is definitely slower with a sports *** than without. On average the throttle is closing to around 60, 2-3 times in every gear. Really annoying for both speed and grip!
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HitmanHearns HitmanHearns is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BASELINE
100%. It's all very new and all of us including the tuning community are all on the learning curve. I think perhaps due to the maps being developed on stock ** car when decreasing airflow restriction at the front and back end of the Turbo the ECU is hitting the fuel hard deck and closing throttle is its way of decreasing airflow, and a times it's drastic enough where you can feel the "pulsing" of the power fluctuating. From what I understand the throttle position slight fluctuations are a normal thing built into the DME programming as a control of sorts; and when it's the "normal" kind you can't feel it. I also understand that with a flash that could be programmed out. What we are seeing, at least me... is that at times these throttle cuts are way beyond the normal controls.

I kind of feel like the right pedal is Forrest Gumps box of chocolates...ya never know what you're gonna get. Some runs the car will run 13-14 psi and feel quick, others it pulls like a raped-ape at 17psi without issue, then sometimes the power feels like a rollercoaster, and there is the random limp mode that keeps you at around 7psi until you shift gears.. There is definitely an inconsistency with delivery, but again I think it's the fuel cap to blame for much of it. But just on this mornings commute, zipping in and out on the highway the car at one point ran through 4th so hard at 17 or so psi without issue, then shortly after felt less eager yet still quick at 13. All within 5 min.
Wow I couldn't have said this better. The only thing I wanted to mention is I don't believe this is an issue with the D.P., because mine has had the same issues with the stock D.P and the ER ***** less D.P. It comes down to the issue being with the JB4 (not that the JB4 is bad but possibly due to fuel cap issues) This wasn't mentioned but I doubt the issue is related to the bms intake either because I've had the same issues running the stock filter.

The other day I was running Map 2 (5e) with 91 octane plus torco so it should have me around 94 octane. I went WOT and left off the pedal, went back on the pedal in 3rd gear and the car wouldn't move. I told my passenger that my foots all the way down on the pedal but the car isn't moving. I had to let off, shift and it was back to normal.

I ended up filling straight 91 and changing to map 1 for now since it's less aggressive. Haven't had an opportunity to WOT and record some logs.

You described it perfectly with the Forrest Gump quote. I'm sometimes hesitant to WOT because the car might not perform.

Issues that I've had since modding (JB4 Map 2/5e, bms intake and ER **/no ***** )

1) 5-6 drive train malfunctions when I am hesitant with the throttle under 15mph.
2) Car won't move on WOT (this happened again when letting off and trying to get back on the pedal)
3) Performance is not consistent, sometimes WOT feels slower than usual and sometimes it feels fast/great.
4) Huge surging/choking during WOT shifts. I haven't noticed that since updating to 5e firmware.

Last edited by HitmanHearns; 02-13-2017 at 11:08 AM..
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Terry @ BMS's Avatar
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Default 02-13-2017, 11:16 AM

Happy to look at more ** logs.. I tested one on our development car awhile back and it ran fine. But didn't really gain any power, so we went back to stock, which is my personal preference anyway.


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Default 02-13-2017, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by theadwrighty
Gents,

2 logs below for the issues stated on the other screen.

I'll PM terry with them now.

OAT 3-5C, M140i, JB4 Map 2, BCS Sports ***, 99 RON, 6MT. No codes at all from car, ran fine before the Sports ***.
Looks like the DME is having a hard time with the boost control, with the ** installed you may also need our EWG connector, so we can have the JB4 remove some of the base dutycycle at low throttle from the DME's mapping.

It uses the same connector as the N55 EWG and installs in the same locations on the harness.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-13-2017, 11:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by theadwrighty
On average the throttle is closing to around 60, 2-3 times in every gear. Really annoying for both speed and grip!
IAVG is boost in the manifold. Looks like in this log for example throttle had to move down below 50% before performance was even effected.

What I do see is an overall oscillation trend which indicates the DME PID having a hard time with boost targeting. Might need less gain, more D, etc.
Attached Images
 


Burger Motorsports
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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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KD07 KD07 is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitmanHearns
Wow I couldn't have said this better. The only thing I wanted to mention is I don't believe this is an issue with the D.P., because mine has had the same issues with the stock D.P and the ER ***** less D.P. It comes down to the issue being with the JB4 (not that the JB4 is bad but possibly due to fuel cap issues) This wasn't mentioned but I doubt the issue is related to the bms intake either because I've had the same issues running the stock filter.

The other day I was running Map 2 (5e) with 91 octane plus torco so it should have me around 94 octane. I went WOT and left off the pedal, went back on the pedal in 3rd gear and the car wouldn't move. I told my passenger that my foots all the way down on the pedal but the car isn't moving. I had to let off, shift and it was back to normal.

I ended up filling straight 91 and changing to map 1 for now since it's less aggressive. Haven't had an opportunity to WOT and record some logs.

You described it perfectly with the Forrest Gump quote. I'm sometimes hesitant to WOT because the car might not perform.

Issues that I've had since modding (JB4 Map 2/5e, bms intake and ER **/no ***** )

1) 5-6 drive train malfunctions when I am hesitant with the throttle under 15mph.
2) Car won't move on WOT (this happened again when letting off and trying to get back on the pedal)
3) Performance is not consistent, sometimes WOT feels slower than usual and sometimes it feels fast/great.
4) Huge surging/choking during WOT shifts. I haven't noticed that since updating to 5e firmware.

I agree with what all 3 or 4 of you that had something to mention above said. And my car never had a **, only BMS intake and jb4. I have the same problems everyone is talking about and you all described everything I'm experiencing perfectly. Even in my logs you can see on the graph the throttle nowhere near consistent at times while the pedal is to the floor.
Again, being relatively stock, I don't experience these problems often but I still do. So the ***** - less ** I don't believe can be the sole blame for the problem.
Still love the jb4, not ever once considered removing it because of this. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until improvements are made and updates solve problems.
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Shorty Shorty is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 11:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
IAVG is boost in the manifold. Looks like in this log for example throttle had to move down below 50% before performance was even effected.

What I do see is an overall oscillation trend which indicates the DME PID having a hard time with boost targeting. Might need less gain, more D, etc.

Do you think it will be worth buying an EWG harness for people with **'s? I was thinking of getting on anyway. I'll order one anyway as it's only cheap and then do some testing.
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BASELINE BASELINE is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitmanHearns
Wow I couldn't have said this better. The only thing I wanted to mention is I don't believe this is an issue with the D.P., because mine has had the same issues with the stock D.P and the ER ***** less D.P. It comes down to the issue being with the JB4 (not that the JB4 is bad but possibly due to fuel cap issues) This wasn't mentioned but I doubt the issue is related to the bms intake either because I've had the same issues running the stock filter.

The other day I was running Map 2 (5e) with 91 octane plus torco so it should have me around 94 octane. I went WOT and left off the pedal, went back on the pedal in 3rd gear and the car wouldn't move. I told my passenger that my foots all the way down on the pedal but the car isn't moving. I had to let off, shift and it was back to normal.

I ended up filling straight 91 and changing to map 1 for now since it's less aggressive. Haven't had an opportunity to WOT and record some logs.

You described it perfectly with the Forrest Gump quote. I'm sometimes hesitant to WOT because the car might not perform.

Issues that I've had since modding (JB4 Map 2/5e, bms intake and ER **/no ***** )

1) 5-6 drive train malfunctions when I am hesitant with the throttle under 15mph.
2) Car won't move on WOT (this happened again when letting off and trying to get back on the pedal)
3) Performance is not consistent, sometimes WOT feels slower than usual and sometimes it feels fast/great.
4) Huge surging/choking during WOT shifts. I haven't noticed that since updating to 5e firmware.
That dead hesitation you're seeing after getting back on WOT....have you seen what the AFR is? I was having an issue that Terry called "Lean Spool" or something along those lines, the car would temporarily go super lean and would just fall on its face before the power game on when afr decreased.
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BASELINE BASELINE is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Looks like the DME is having a hard time with the boost control, with the ** installed you may also need our EWG connector, so we can have the JB4 remove some of the base dutycycle at low throttle from the DME's mapping.

It uses the same connector as the N55 EWG and installs in the same locations on the harness.
Terry, might be interested in the EWG connector as well. Any more info on how this works and targets the issue? Thanks again!
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Default 02-13-2017, 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty
Do you think it will be worth buying an EWG harness for people with **'s? I was thinking of getting on anyway. I'll order one anyway as it's only cheap and then do some testing.
I don't know... But, it gives us a lot more control over the tuning end. So it's likely that with that connector in place we can tune around this issue. Someone with a ** and the issue will have to add one in and work with us to test some changes to smooth it out.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Shorty Shorty is offline
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Default 02-13-2017, 12:41 PM

Good man. I have had some random hesitations on mine (Although not as bad as AdWrightys) so will do some logs then fit the EWG harness and go from there.

I've just messaged AdWrighty to tell him about this thread so hopefully he orders a harness soon too.
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