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Default M235i Logs - 12-19-2016, 03:41 PM

EDIT: Ugh, just realized: wrong section. I'll ask a mod to move.

Before I begin, I would like to thank Peter @ Pure Turbos for installing and setting up the JB4 on my car. He did an excellent job and took the time to explain how things worked to me. If anyone in Europe lives near Belgium and is looking to get a JB4 installed: contact him. You won't regret it.

He encouraged me to learn more about how this all works, so here I am! I'm looking for some help on interpreting the logs my car/JB4 has generated. I think I get the general idea of it, but I'd like to hear some opinions of the experts (I also don't want to bother Peter every minute of the day with my logs, so there's that )

Now onto the details.

Car: MY2014 M235i RWD AT
Mods: Wagner ** / ER CP / JB4 + EWG
Runs: Map 5 + Map 6 that was generously set up for me by Peter (thanks again!)
Fuel: Ethanol-free RON102 (AKI 95 - 97, something like that anyways)

Map 5 - Run 1 - 2016-12-19 20_56_32
Target/Boost:
Boost stays close to the targets imposed by the JB4. I think the car is performing as expected here.

IAT:
The IAT value skyrockets shortly after going WOT, which is expected considering I am running the stock intercooler. It does not seem to affect map 5 that much however, as boost remains steady.

PWM:
I don't fully understand this value, but isn't this value raised fairly late? Or am I just not understanding this value properly?

Trims:
Trims seem to remain fully withing the safe zone throughout the entire pull, never exceeding 30.0. I assume this means that additional short-term fueling was only required for brief moments which would be expected behavior since we're asking for more boost?

avg_ign:
This value seems to be perfectly fine at an average of 3.1 during most part of the run. From what I understand, this value indicates there there is some headroom left as 3.1 is not bad.

afr:
Seems to be following the proper pattern, where the afr is decreased as the demand for power increases, but I'm not sure how to interpret the actual numbers.

To summarize, apart from poor stock intercooler performance, map 5 seems to be doing fine on my car. Runs 2 and 3 show similar behavior. The map does seem to be a bit conservative (but I believe that's kind of the point?). Not sure if there are any other important values to monitor?

Map 6 - Run 1 - 2016-12-19 21_38_38
Target/Boost:
Boost stays close to the targets imposed by the JB4. I think the car is performing as well as can be expected here. I suspect the stock intercooler may be responsible for the actual boost deviating more from the target when compared to map 5?

IAT:
Stock intercooler! This is really going to be a problem in the summer...

PWM:
I don't fully understand this value, but isn't this value raised fairly late? Or am I just not understanding this value properly?

Trims:
Trims seem to remain in the safe zone throughout the entire pull, never exceeding 40. They also don't stay too long at or around 40, I think? What constitutes as "long-term" when it comes to trims? I'm guessing we're seeing higher values than we see with map 5 due to greater fueling requirements?

avg_ign:
Does not exceed 4.0, which is within the limits. Not sure if this means if there's more headroom or not.

afr:
Same as map 5?

Map 6 seems to be doing fine as well, but if my interpretation of the logs is correct, the actual boost would probably be more consistent with a proper intercooler? Again, I'm also not sure if there are any other values to pay attention too.

Thanks guys!

@ EDIT: Logs removed for privacy reasons


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

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Last edited by wjjkoevoets; 01-12-2017 at 11:23 AM..
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Default 12-20-2016, 10:16 AM

Your data logs are corrupted.

Don't open them in excel before uploading them.



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Default 12-20-2016, 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
Your data logs are corrupted.

Don't open them in excel before uploading them.
You can fix it, in excel data text to colums and enter the separator then it works


F21 M140i - 100-200: 6.95
Audi TTRS - 100-200: 4.47 60-130: 5.16
F80 M3 - 100-200: 4.45, 60-130: 5.1
F20 M135i (sold) - 100-200: 6.26 , 60-130: 7.4
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Default 12-20-2016, 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter @ Pure
You can fix it, in excel data text to colums and enter the separator then it works
This. It also seems to respond differently across Office versions and regional settings. At work the files use ";" as a separator and open "messed up", at home they open fine and use a "," separator.

I have attached the untouched logs to this post.

@ Peter: I will get back to your e-mail a bit later. I'm currently upgrading my virtual environment to server 2016, including the mail server.

@ EDIT: Logs removed for privacy reasons


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

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Default 12-21-2016, 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter @ Pure
You can fix it, in excel data text to colums and enter the separator then it works
We look at 100's of logs a day...it's really much easier on us if logs are taken and uploaded in a standard format.



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Default 12-21-2016, 01:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjjkoevoets
This. It also seems to respond differently across Office versions and regional settings. At work the files use ";" as a separator and open "messed up", at home they open fine and use a "," separator.

I have attached the untouched logs to this post.

@ Peter: I will get back to your e-mail a bit later. I'm currently upgrading my virtual environment to server 2016, including the mail server.
Logs look pretty normal, map 6 is a bit more aggressive.

If you have questions about the tuning parameters, this is a pretty good read.

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21269



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Default 12-21-2016, 09:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
We look at 100's of logs a day...it's really much easier on us if logs are taken and uploaded in a standard format.
Yes fully understand!


F21 M140i - 100-200: 6.95
Audi TTRS - 100-200: 4.47 60-130: 5.16
F80 M3 - 100-200: 4.45, 60-130: 5.1
F20 M135i (sold) - 100-200: 6.26 , 60-130: 7.4
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Default 12-22-2016, 03:18 PM




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Default 12-27-2016, 03:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter @ Pure
Yes fully understand!
It would be great if the app developer could provide a neat Excel output instead of a CSV, but I'm not really complaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
Logs look pretty normal, map 6 is a bit more aggressive.

If you have questions about the tuning parameters, this is a pretty good read.

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21269
Hi Steve,

Thanks. I got most of my information from that thread!

---

I decided to do a few more runs on map 6 tonight, but the first run triggered a drive train malfunction (11A002 Fuel Pressure Below Target). Unfortunately I did not log this run.

After clearing the codes and resetting the car, I did a second run with logging enabled. Although this run did not trigger a drivetrain malfunction, I do believe it offers some insight as to why the error message was triggered (See attached log).

Two things I notice:
- As the run progresses, boost stays almost consistently over the boost target, reaching as high as 20.7 psi;
- Trims are almost consistently maxed out at 49 towards the end of the run.

My assumption here is that the fuel system is unable to keep up with the tune and that the tune is slightly too aggressive. Ignition timing seems to be fine as it never goes above 4.5, which is fine for pump gas as far as I can tell. Had I continued this run I would have properly tirggered the error message again.

What would be the best way to resolve this? Turn down the boost levels or raise the FOL value? Or should I be looking at something different alltogether?

Thanks in advance guys!

EDIT: Added a Map 4 run as well, which shows nothing out of the ordinary as far as I can tell.
EDIT2: I compared the latest map 6 log with the one I posted last week and I notice that the HPFP pressure fluctuates more heavily in the new log. In the new log it's anywhere between 14 - 18 (2100 - 2700 psi) range, in the old log it's consistently between 17 - 18 (2550 - 2700 psi). Additionally, PWM is significantly higher during the run as well (61 on average during WOT, compared to 53 on average during WOT). LPFP and AFR seem to be fairly similar on average. Did my HPFP suddenly develop an issue where it can no longer keep up?

@ EDIT: Logs removed for privacy reasons


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

Proud ex-owner of an:
MG TF 135 - 80th Anniversary Edition (Starlight Silver) - Stock

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Default 12-28-2016, 04:06 AM

What I find strange in your latest map6 log is that your boost is much higher then your target. I also have a M235 ('15) and had good results in manually doing duty bias adjustments.

I'm running a 20% mix of pure ethanol with RON102 fuel, but on my car 20% mix with max 16psi is the max with my current configuration. The HPFP can not handle more.


2015 F22 M235i N55 EWG | M Performance | 18" VMR710 | Pure Stage 2 Turbo | Pure High Flow Inlet | XDI-35 HPFP | Fuel-It LPFP Stage 2 | Bootmod3 Cary Jordan Custom Tune | XHP Stage 1 Tune | GFB DV+ T9356 | N20 TMAP | NGK SILZKBR8D8S 0,5mm | Wagner DownP | Wagner EVO2 Performance Intercooler | VRSF Chargepipe | M Performance Exhaust | OS Giken Superlock
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Default 12-28-2016, 09:07 AM

A little DB tuning may help with the overboost.

Stock HPFP isn't going to be able to support high boost, it's a known weak point.

You can raise your FOL to 70 but that may exacerbate the issue.



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Default 12-28-2016, 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletrs
What I find strange in your latest map6 log is that your boost is much higher then your target. I also have a M235 ('15) and had good results in manually doing duty bias adjustments.

I'm running a 20% mix of pure ethanol with RON102 fuel, but on my car 20% mix with max 16psi is the max with my current configuration. The HPFP can not handle more.
Yes, I never expected it to ever reach 20.5+ psi. It is clearly too much for the fuel system to keep up. Map 6 maxing out at or around 17 psi seems to be the sweet spot as my previous log showed. No crazy overboosting there either. And I don't mind needing pure RON102 without ethanol. Not always driving on map 6


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
A little DB tuning may help with the overboost.

Stock HPFP isn't going to be able to support high boost, it's a known weak point.

You can raise your FOL to 70 but that may exacerbate the issue.
Thanks Steve. Also got some input from Peter.

I've changed the following parameters:
FF: 100 (was 119)
FOL; 65 (was 60)
Auto-Shift Boost Redux: 35 (was 10)

I am going to see if this is enough to prevent the car from overboosting and maxing out the fuel system. Otherwise I will see about lowering FF some more.

If I can't get the boost under control properly with FF (i.e. end up massively underboosting due too low FF value) I intend to lower the boost values themselves and raise FF again. Maybe that way it will "overboost" to about 17 psi.

Hope to have some time next weekend.


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

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Default 12-29-2016, 09:15 AM

With good DB tuning, FF should remain pretty consistent, otherwise it will continue to learn up or down as needed.



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Default 12-29-2016, 03:09 PM

Steve, thank you for bringing up the duty bias variable. You triggered me to do some further reading on the subject. I think I am now beginning to understand what exactly is going on. This is very interesting stuff!

I have compared the map 6 run I initially posted with the one I posted more recently. They have one major difference: FF value. My initial log has FF at 93, my recent log has FF at a whopping 121.

Here's what I think is happening. In my initial log, the car is not overboosting because FF is only at 93. Since my PID Gain is set at a low 10, PWM can not deviate too far from the FF value. I take it this is exactly how one would want it as it basically tops off the boost. Basically the system is balanced and keeping itself in check. Again, my interpretation, feel free to point out if I'm horribly mistaken!

Now we look at the recent log I posted. In this log, the car is able to overboost because FF is really high at 121. Likewise, PID Gain still being set at 10 is restricting PWM's deviation. As a result (and it actually does this according to the graph!) PWM still has to stay close to FF which is suddenly a lot higher than before. So when the car is overboosting to over 20 psi, PWM is barely dropping (or not at all), because FF just stays way up there.

Initially, my assumption was to just drop FF. Dropping FF means PWM does not have to deviate as much from FF in order to keep the boost in check. The downside of course is that lowering FF is the nuclear option as it affects the entire RPM range. Boost is fine at lower RPMs so I don't want to adjust it too much.

I turned my attention to PID Gain instead. I could of course raise PID Gain to a higher value, but that will result in the PWM value oscillating and probably messing up the boost curve at some point or another. So changing this value in itself is not really helpful either.

So here's what I think I should do:
- Lower FF from 121 to 100
- Raise PID Gain from 10 to 15
- Adjust duty bias value per RPM

I need to lower FF to keep my PWM values lower. I need to raise PID Gain for slightly more PWM value leeway. I need to adjust duty bias values so the FF curve closely matches PWM output.

There's just one thing I don't understand: Why on earth did my FF go up to 121? It started way below 100. What could cause this?


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

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Default 12-29-2016, 10:57 PM

You are catching on very fast! I think you focus too much on matching FF and PWM. The end goal is to hit boost target (or stay 1psi under which I prefer) so look at those instead for a succes criteria..?

You can disable FF autotune with FUD=99 if it becomes too annoying I would recommend you to do this especially during DB tuning.

Also, if possible, do your DB tuning in 5th gear then the chance of overboosting in 4th is smaller I experience.

You can see from the log that I have attached, that I hit target "ok" but my FF and PWM are pretty far apart.
Attached Files
File Type: csv map6-6 5th gear.csv (6.2 KB, 84 views)

Last edited by harkes; 12-29-2016 at 11:09 PM..
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Default 12-30-2016, 03:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkes
You are catching on very fast! I think you focus too much on matching FF and PWM. The end goal is to hit boost target (or stay 1psi under which I prefer) so look at those instead for a succes criteria..?

You can disable FF autotune with FUD=99 if it becomes too annoying I would recommend you to do this especially during DB tuning.

Also, if possible, do your DB tuning in 5th gear then the chance of overboosting in 4th is smaller I experience.

You can see from the log that I have attached, that I hit target "ok" but my FF and PWM are pretty far apart.
From my understanding for the EWG board there is no disable RPM FF gain option.That is for the PWG application


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Default 12-30-2016, 04:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkes
You are catching on very fast! I think you focus too much on matching FF and PWM. The end goal is to hit boost target (or stay 1psi under which I prefer) so look at those instead for a succes criteria..?

You can disable FF autotune with FUD=99 if it becomes too annoying I would recommend you to do this especially during DB tuning.

Also, if possible, do your DB tuning in 5th gear then the chance of overboosting in 4th is smaller I experience.

You can see from the log that I have attached, that I hit target "ok" but my FF and PWM are pretty far apart.
Thanks. My focus on the FF and PWM value being close is mostly based on Terry's explanation of how these two values seem to work. To me it also kind of makes sense, but yes, you're right. The end goal should be hitting boost target (and staying close to it, instead of going way over it or staying way under it).

As claude1604 mentions, I'm not sure if FUD works on EWG N55s. It does sound like something I'd want when tuning duty bias values. Don't want FF to change too much.

Thanks for the tip! I'll see about getting it running properly in 5th gear

Your log gives me the impression that your car is very fun to drive

I'm thinking of getting a baseline log or two with the following settings to start:


Slightly lowered FF and set a lower duty bias for higher RPMs to prevent boost from getting out of control and killing my HPFP Also set FOL back from 65 to 60.

It may not be perfect, but the only way I'm going to learn this is by trying.


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

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Default 12-30-2016, 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjjkoevoets
Steve, thank you for bringing up the duty bias variable. You triggered me to do some further reading on the subject. I think I am now beginning to understand what exactly is going on. This is very interesting stuff!

I have compared the map 6 run I initially posted with the one I posted more recently. They have one major difference: FF value. My initial log has FF at 93, my recent log has FF at a whopping 121.

Here's what I think is happening. In my initial log, the car is not overboosting because FF is only at 93. Since my PID Gain is set at a low 10, PWM can not deviate too far from the FF value. I take it this is exactly how one would want it as it basically tops off the boost. Basically the system is balanced and keeping itself in check. Again, my interpretation, feel free to point out if I'm horribly mistaken!

Now we look at the recent log I posted. In this log, the car is able to overboost because FF is really high at 121. Likewise, PID Gain still being set at 10 is restricting PWM's deviation. As a result (and it actually does this according to the graph!) PWM still has to stay close to FF which is suddenly a lot higher than before. So when the car is overboosting to over 20 psi, PWM is barely dropping (or not at all), because FF just stays way up there.

Initially, my assumption was to just drop FF. Dropping FF means PWM does not have to deviate as much from FF in order to keep the boost in check. The downside of course is that lowering FF is the nuclear option as it affects the entire RPM range. Boost is fine at lower RPMs so I don't want to adjust it too much.

I turned my attention to PID Gain instead. I could of course raise PID Gain to a higher value, but that will result in the PWM value oscillating and probably messing up the boost curve at some point or another. So changing this value in itself is not really helpful either.

So here's what I think I should do:
- Lower FF from 121 to 100
- Raise PID Gain from 10 to 15
- Adjust duty bias value per RPM

I need to lower FF to keep my PWM values lower. I need to raise PID Gain for slightly more PWM value leeway. I need to adjust duty bias values so the FF curve closely matches PWM output.

There's just one thing I don't understand: Why on earth did my FF go up to 121? It started way below 100. What could cause this?
I would recommend leaving PID alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkes
You are catching on very fast! I think you focus too much on matching FF and PWM. The end goal is to hit boost target (or stay 1psi under which I prefer) so look at those instead for a succes criteria..?

You can disable FF autotune with FUD=99 if it becomes too annoying I would recommend you to do this especially during DB tuning.

Also, if possible, do your DB tuning in 5th gear then the chance of overboosting in 4th is smaller I experience.

You can see from the log that I have attached, that I hit target "ok" but my FF and PWM are pretty far apart.
Matching the PWM and FF curve in shape and amplitude is exactly what you want to do.

DB settings will adjust the shape of the curve, FF will adjust the curve up or down. Match those up and there shouldn't be any need to disable FF.



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Default 12-30-2016, 03:24 PM

I had some free time tonight, so I decided to do a few runs with the settings I listed in my previous post. As per Steve's recommendation however, I did not touch PID Gain and left it at 10.

After only a few runs, I settled on the following configuration:


FF went pretty fast from 100 to 125 again, but this time the log is not showing massive overboost. I think I've got the overboost issue under control!

It also seems that avg_ign has improved in the process, dropping from 4.6'ish to 3.8ish. Still doing 17, 18 psi tops, but with a much lower avg_ign value!

Trims are back in the safe range as well, they never exceed 42 and generally hover around in the mid-thirties. Much better than the previous log!

My initial runs were still showing some overboost when shifting so I ended up increasing the auto shift boost redux to 60.

Looking at the graph, my PWM and FF stay fairly close to eachother, but I suspect there may be some improvement to be gained still.


I think I am very close to the sweetspot of my car! *excited*

How is it looking guys? Any feedback?

@ EDIT: Logs removed for privacy reasons


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

Proud ex-owner of an:
MG TF 135 - 80th Anniversary Edition (Starlight Silver) - Stock

Last edited by wjjkoevoets; 01-12-2017 at 11:25 AM..
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wjjkoevoets wjjkoevoets is offline
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Default 01-02-2017, 12:40 PM

I couldn't help myself today and decided to do some more experimenting. I basically set all duty bias values to 50 and FUD to 99 (FF=125). I then did a run in 5th gear to see what the car would do. After a few runs I ended up with the following settings (disabled FUD again):


In 5th gear, the car seemed to be doing really well. HPFP pressure barely dropped, trims never even touch 40 and avg_ign dropped to 2.7 during WOT. The car also did good in 4th gear, avg_ign was a little higher, but it dropped during the run. Finally, the 6th gear run also went fairly well I would think. Avg_ign was stuck on a respectable 3.6, HPFP had no problems keeping up and trims never reached 40 either.

PWM/FF seem stay very close to eachother, but PWM has to compensate a few times because my throttle is all over the place (getting really bad wheelspin in every gear, bad road conditions + bad weather + crappy winter tyres).

5th:


4th:


6th:


I also slightly lowered the boost targets, although I could probably easily get away with the targets Peter had initially setup for me.

Any feedback guys? Are my boost targets reasonable? Would really appreciate some input from the experts here on how the car is performing.

Thank you in advance!

@ EDIT: Logs removed for privacy reasons


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

Proud ex-owner of an:
MG TF 135 - 80th Anniversary Edition (Starlight Silver) - Stock

Last edited by wjjkoevoets; 01-12-2017 at 11:26 AM..
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harkes harkes is offline
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Default 01-02-2017, 07:34 PM

People say that throttle closures does not matter too much, but if you run e.g. 1psi under target I think you can mostly avoid it. Hmmmm...I guess you would have to lock FF then otherwise it will learn up automatically.

Are you Dutch?
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serenvox serenvox is offline
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Default 01-03-2017, 01:07 AM

Per our PMs, Ill leave my LOGs here. Let me know via PM what you think.
2015 M235xi FBO JB4(EWG) -- 92 pump -- Outside Temp 75F
Attached Files
File Type: csv 3rd Gear WOT.csv (10.9 KB, 80 views)
File Type: csv 4th Gear WOT.csv (9.6 KB, 73 views)
File Type: csv 4th Gear WOT 4.4 avg_ign.csv (10.7 KB, 68 views)
File Type: csv Random 1st-6th Gear.csv (26.8 KB, 67 views)
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wjjkoevoets wjjkoevoets is offline
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Default 01-03-2017, 06:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenvox
Per our PMs, Ill leave my LOGs here. Let me know via PM what you think.
2015 M235xi FBO JB4(EWG) -- 92 pump -- Outside Temp 75F
PM sent on the other forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkes
People say that throttle closures does not matter too much, but if you run e.g. 1psi under target I think you can mostly avoid it. Hmmmm...I guess you would have to lock FF then otherwise it will learn up automatically.

Are you Dutch?
Yeah, it doesn't seem to affect the car too badly, but it's slightly noticable in the logs. Nothing too bad though. FF seems to have stabilized with these settings, but I will do a few more WOT pulls when I have time. I don't really want to lock FF when I don't have to.

Yes, I'm Dutch


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

Proud ex-owner of an:
MG TF 135 - 80th Anniversary Edition (Starlight Silver) - Stock
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serenvox serenvox is offline
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Default 01-03-2017, 03:51 PM

Never got your PM @wjjkoevotes
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Default 01-03-2017, 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenvox
Never got your PM @wjjkoevotes
I sent it on 2addicts


BMW ///M235i (EBII) - JB4 - BM3 - One sneaky Wagner high flow boi - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

Proud ex-owner of an:
MG TF 135 - 80th Anniversary Edition (Starlight Silver) - Stock
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