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Gopher Gopher is offline
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Default How much e85 could I run with a stage 2 lpfp only? - 12-18-2016, 09:51 AM

I know there is much discussion on similar topics, but for someone not wanting to run meth or other supplemental fueling, but that is willing to install a fuel it stage 2 upgrade, how much e85 can I expect to safely run?

I see some guys getting away with e45 on stock fuel systems on a regular basis and I've noticed a lot of dynos with people running e65+ with stock hardware (do they do this regularly or just for dyno?) But I'm still wanting some guiding principal.

I'll be getting my car back from some body work this week and am wanting to work with Trebila for a custom tune and probably an e85 and pump flash, so I'd like to plan on having as much e85 for that custom.flash as reasonable.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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NA55 NA55 is offline
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Default 12-18-2016, 11:05 AM

Maximum ethanol content depends on how you tune your car. Your tuner should be able to recommend how much ethanol based on your cars health and power goals.
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Default 12-18-2016, 11:35 AM

Up to 100%.

As previously stated, after a certain point, you'll need a custom tune.
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Default 12-18-2016, 11:45 AM

I have the Stage 2 pump on my 535 w RBs and have run 10 gallons of E85 with no problem. I know some 335s can run straight E85 w that set-up, but e60 has a different fuel line configuration. If you are on stock turbos you should be able to run pretty high mixtures with a Stg 2 pump.


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Default 12-19-2016, 12:16 AM

If you are stock turbo your limit will be your hpfp with E85 not a stage 2 lpfp.


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Default 12-19-2016, 05:40 AM

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Assuming then a stock lpfp, and a brand new OEM hpfp that was just changed under warranty 2500 miles ago, any speculation on the limitation?
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JazRedGT JazRedGT is offline
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Default 12-19-2016, 07:02 AM

Every situation is different. You will have to gradually increase ethanol mix and log. I got away with E66 content on a stock LPFP for a long time. I upgraded to a Stage 2 LPFP for peace of mind.


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Default 12-19-2016, 09:28 AM

It is highly dependent on the actual power you are making.

The stock HPFP with an LPFP upgrade will typically support the following:

E85 - 430whp
E50 - 460whp
E10 - 525whp

As you can imagine AFR targets also have a pretty significant impact on those numbers.



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Default 12-21-2016, 05:23 PM

Highly dependent on tune!
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Default 06-01-2017, 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
It is highly dependent on the actual power you are making.

The stock HPFP with an LPFP upgrade will typically support the following:

E85 - 430whp
E50 - 460whp
E10 - 525whp

As you can imagine AFR targets also have a pretty significant impact on those numbers.
I'm sorry for bringing up an old thread but I've been trying to research fueling and came across this post.

Why do you have less whp as you increase in E content? My understanding is that we're adding ethanol because it has a higher octane rating, which allows us to run more boost/timing which = more hp?

My guess here that with an upgraded LPFP the bottleneck becomes the HPFP as the increase in ethanol content makes the HPFP less effective(for lack of better words) and so as the ethanol content increases you have to tune down to keep the engine safe?

Am I close? Or way off base?


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treehouse treehouse is offline
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Default 06-01-2017, 01:17 PM

So the way I understand it:

Ethanol has less energy per volume. So in order to make the same power, the HPFP will have to pump a larger volume of ethanol to make the same power. Since the HPFP can only push a static max volume of fuel, the more ethanol, means less power.

The benefits of Ethanol come from increased octane and extra fuel adds to cooling benefits..
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Default 06-01-2017, 05:13 PM

Weird the less Ethanol you put the more horsepower you make
E-10 -525hp? So basically not much power with full tank of Ethanol?
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Default 06-01-2017, 05:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by treehouse
So the way I understand it:

Ethanol has less energy per volume. So in order to make the same power, the HPFP will have to pump a larger volume of ethanol to make the same power. Since the HPFP can only push a static max volume of fuel, the more ethanol, means less power.

The benefits of Ethanol come from increased octane and extra fuel adds to cooling benefits..
Thanks for that. That all makes sense.

I can increase boost to take advantage of the increased octane from ethanol but I'm limited to the limits of the HPFP. This can be seen by the FP_H value. From what I've read, it seems that once it gets below 11, that signifies that I'm reaching the limits, then I need to try and change the tune or upgrade the fueling to port or throttlebody injection.?


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Default 06-01-2017, 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW135xi
Weird the less Ethanol you put the more horsepower you make
E-10 -525hp? So basically not much power with full tank of Ethanol?
That's not what is going on with those numbers. He is showing the hp limit of a stock hpfp with upgraded lpfp. More e85 requires more fueling, so full e85 over 430whp requires more fuel than the stock hpfp is good for.



Through mixing fuels you can relieve some of the pressure put on the stock fuel system, raising the max hp before the hpfp taps out. Its just a general guideline of fuel system limits not limit of the actual fuel.
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Default 06-01-2017, 10:24 PM

EuroDouche is correct.

More ethanol = more octane and allows for more aggressive tuning and more power.

More ethanol also takes more volume (up to 40% more than pump gas) and thus the more ethanol you run, the less power your flow limited HPFP can support due to the increased flow demands.



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Default 06-02-2017, 08:53 AM

Thank you!


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Default 06-02-2017, 10:41 AM

Got it .Thanks
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Default 07-18-2019, 04:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tho
Thanks for that. That all makes sense.

I can increase boost to take advantage of the increased octane from ethanol but I'm limited to the limits of the HPFP. This can be seen by the FP_H value. From what I've read, it seems that once it gets below 11, that signifies that I'm reaching the limits, then I need to try and change the tune or upgrade the fueling to port or throttlebody injection.?


sorry to dig up an old thread, so does it mean that if you already have an upgraded Stage 2 LPFP without port injection, in order to make more power you will need a new backend flash compared to if your car was on pump gas?

Also, will running E10/20 help make more power without a change in tuning, assuming that all hardware is the same?
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Default 07-23-2019, 10:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightning
sorry to dig up an old thread, so does it mean that if you already have an upgraded Stage 2 LPFP without port injection, in order to make more power you will need a new backend flash compared to if your car was on pump gas?

Also, will running E10/20 help make more power without a change in tuning, assuming that all hardware is the same?
More ethanol than say e40- we recommend switching from our pump BEF.

E10-20 you could still run the pump flash- but Id imagine timing ave ign would improve



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lightning lightning is offline
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Default 07-23-2019, 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave @ BMS/Fuel-It!
More ethanol than say e40- we recommend switching from our pump BEF.

E10-20 you could still run the pump flash- but Id imagine timing ave ign would improve
Thanks for the info Dave, do you need port injection for E40?
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