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Default 05-09-2020, 10:37 AM

I've been hoping/praying for BMS to come up with a POST-A2W intercooler setup. I currently have the Z1 HKS BOV kit installed in the pre-A2W intercooler location. Would LOVE to see a setup closer to the intake manifold as well. This WMI setup with fuel wires and EWG connectors would probably make this platform scream!

Hate to beat a dead horse, but any plans Terry?


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Last edited by V@pors; 05-09-2020 at 10:43 AM..
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ddnspider ddnspider is offline
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Default 05-09-2020, 12:50 PM

For the small amount of trimming I had to do on the driver side only and the fact it allows BOVs to stay installed I really was surprised that nobody worked with me to create another option.


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Default 05-09-2020, 01:46 PM

Yeah, me too. Are you the guy on the infinitiq60.org website that posted pics of their setup?


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Default 05-09-2020, 02:05 PM

Pre Turbo definitely has advantages of its own by letting the turbo work outside of its efficiency map effectively.
If there’s data on this platform that shows post HX show more gains than pre that’s good to know, seeing that water to air HX has limits of its own, it’s probably better to get the compressed temps lower to help with that, then have one directly after the the Intercooler sitting on top to have a longer travel before it reaches the chambers. As long as it’s before the AIT sensors.
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Default 05-09-2020, 03:14 PM

Yes the preturbo lets you run outside of the efficiency range, it pushes the island to the right. But post heat exchanger has a larger impact on overall temp drop plus not vaporizing prior to the combustion chamber. Pulling more heat out of the chamber is key to adding boost/timing.


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Default 05-09-2020, 03:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobohm
Terry has chimed in on this earlier but placing the injection nozzles pre-turbo does make the install easier on the VR30 but may not be considered the "best" placement (see article link).

Where to locate your alcohol-water injection nozzle - DevilsOwn Injection
Nice find. The problem with this write up is that it doesnít take into account that different platform require different strategies.
For example with Audiís 4.0t, weíve tested both pre turbo and intake manifold.
Best results came with pre turbo placement. In the 1/4 mile, this made up for a .1 difference and a 2-3 mph trap gain.
While lower AIT helped advance ignition timing, timing was already maxed and a good fuel will be able to prevent knock from predet. Running 1-2 psi more was the answer, but running 1-2 psi more would push the limits of the turbos and create more heat than the HX and meth can pull, effectively heat soaking the HX.
My guess would be keeping the charge temps down to something manageable for the cooling system to be able to work with.

I understand that the VR30 is different and I come in with an open mind, like I said, all platforms require a different strategy. This is why I ask, if there is actual data behind post working more effectively and has pre been taken advantage of fully seeing that these turbos are a limit on its own.
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ddnspider ddnspider is offline
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Default 05-09-2020, 03:22 PM

It's been tested on MANY platforms and post HE works the best when you are octane limited. I have no doubt that preturbo works well if octane and knock isn't a concern but most don't run race gas. That defeats 1 of the largest reasons for having the WMI kit to begin with. If you were to run straight E85 or race gas you could have sky high MATs and no knock (I know of those north of 200F running 20+ psi with zero knock).


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Default 05-09-2020, 03:31 PM

Really depends on your intention with a WMI. If you plan on running 93 and want to run a race map for daily, that’s where you would probably go for if you want.

These are more of record runs and squeezing the most out, so this strategy was more effective, race gas has its limits too.
Also keep in mind, the Audi has inverted manifolds, so the travel is much shorter. So benefits of octane raising still reaches the chamber on 93.

Last edited by Dgvr6; 05-09-2020 at 03:47 PM..
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Default 05-09-2020, 04:08 PM

I don't know of many running around on VP or pure E85 in their daily so 91/93 would be for most users. It's well documented what higher E levels on this platform do to the stock fuel system, AFR, and driving manners on a stock tune. There are always hero passes, but most people won't change the WMI injection location that they use for their 99.9% of the time setup for the 0.1% setup. And if they do they don't need to wait until a kit is available to make it happen.


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Default 05-09-2020, 04:42 PM

Meh, with pre turbo, you’re still able to daily a race map.. meth doesn’t go anywhere whether it’s liquid or gas form. Just doesn’t pull anymore heat when it’s in gas form.. that’s all.
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Default 05-09-2020, 05:33 PM

Meh, yes with reduced effectiveness compared to post HE. That's the entire point of the discussion. Most people ARE octane limited so post HE is a better choice. If you're not octane limited, super, run it preturbo and enjoy the increased compressor efficiency.


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Default 05-09-2020, 06:03 PM

Lol, actually your discussion was aimed at temps not octane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddnspider
Yes the preturbo lets you run outside of the efficiency range, it pushes the island to the right. But post heat exchanger has a larger impact on overall temp drop plus not vaporizing prior to the combustion chamber. Pulling more heat out of the chamber is key to adding boost/timing.
Meth still raises octane, just does not pull heat when in gas form.. that’s all.
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Default 05-09-2020, 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgvr6
Lol, actually your discussion was aimed at temps not octane.



Meth still raises octane, just does not pull heat when in gas form.. that’s all.
Do you understand what happens when combustion temps drop? You increase your knock threshold due. What happens when you increase your octane? You increase your knock threshold.

And your statement about meth not pulling heat while in gas form is exactly why it's better to inject post heat exchanger.

Water/Methanol FAQ (Gasoline)

Check out questions 15 through 17. There are also articles by AEM and Dragzine among others. You obviously prefer preturbo despite what many vendors and companies recommend. The good news is that's what the currently available BMS kit offers, so you should be all set.


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Talking 05-09-2020, 06:28 PM

Dude, listen to yourself.. your all over the place trying to make your point because I told you that I have data thatís inconsistent with your claims.

This isnít reading off the interwebs or vendor dynos. This is actually 1/4 mile times and logs, whether on a different platform or not, itís still data that shows pre vs post thatís been tried by actual folks who want to push a platform to the next level.

Now whether you have that data or not, thatís on you. Once you said you know people running 200f+ temps on race gas.. you lost me there lol. You continue to post links in order to back up your claims, I see where youíre getting your information from.
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Default 05-09-2020, 06:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgvr6
Dude, listen to yourself.. your all over the place trying to make your point because I told you that I have data thatís inconsistent with your claims.

This isnít reading off the interwebs or vendor dynos. This is actually 1/4 mile times and logs, whether on a different platform or not, itís still data that shows pre vs post thatís been tried by actual folks who want to push a platform to the next level.

Now whether you have that data or not, thatís on you. Once you said you know people running 200f+ temps on race gas.. you lost me there lol. You continue to post links in order to back up your claims, I see where youíre getting your information from.
Lol, if you don't see the correlation with cooler charge temps and octane increase both suppressing knock there isn't much to talk about. By your own admission, meth losses it's ability to pull heat once it's a vapor. Thanks for making the argument for me. It's pretty simple to understand the benefits of WMI and knock suppression is a primary one, and it does a better job suppressing knock when it's injected closer to the combustion chamber. All the major vendors in the racing industry happen to agree. You don't, that's fine by me.


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Default 05-09-2020, 06:54 PM

What? Bro yes the only way it becomes gas is if it did it’s job and pulled heat.
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Default 05-09-2020, 06:58 PM

How about this, since you’re the only one who tested it on this platform Im not going to disagree with you even though you’re just pulling articles.

Does that make you feel better?
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Default 05-09-2020, 07:06 PM

You don't have to agree with me. You just aren't seeming to grasp the benefit so it sounds like we're talking past each other. You are totally right, I'm linking you to some of the biggest names in drag racing that do this stuff for a living. Like I said, you don't agree, it's your car. Enjoy your setup


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Default 05-09-2020, 07:35 PM

Not really, I understand your logic.. and I don’t disagree..

You’re just a little bit all over the place with your point
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Default 05-09-2020, 07:40 PM

I think my meth still retains octane properties while in gas form comment flew over your head.. and that’s ok
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Default 05-10-2020, 05:21 AM

Lol you're welcome to think whatever you want about what did or didn't go over my head, that's a 2 way street. Meth as a vapor retains octane and loses all of its ability to pull heat. Like I said, you do you and enjoy your setup.


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Default 05-11-2020, 11:28 AM

Are these settings still applicable to our Q50/Q60?
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Default 05-11-2020, 12:00 PM

I actually had Meth Trigger Mode set to 4 (so WMI is enabled on all maps.)

Terry - With v8 firmware, is setting still correct?


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Default 05-11-2020, 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobohm
I actually had Meth Trigger Mode set to 4 (so WMI is enabled on all maps.)

Terry - With v8 firmware, is setting still correct?
Do you mean meth trigger set to 1? 1 is meth for all maps per the table.


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Default 05-11-2020, 12:19 PM

I actually have it set to 4 (re: email from Terry when I was setting up in January to run the JB4 for WMI control on top of the EcuTek flash.


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