N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion
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chiefsotos chiefsotos is offline
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Default Upgrade turbo for best durability - 10-06-2017, 11:46 AM

Hello, this is my first post in this forum, although I read many threads especially for turbos.
I have a n54 335 with 97.000kms and proceed rev3, free less Dowpipes, fully free less exhaust, intercooler forge and dual cones.
My wastegates are on their last, i have a lot of rattling and sometimes stack fully open.
What is the best turbo upgrade with hp goals around 500hp.
I will use only 93 pump gas and nothing else.
I would like the best durability in time and last more than 60.000kms.
Should I go with something like pure stage 2 or go single turbo setup;
If I change the proceed rev 3 with jb4 can jb4 handle the new turbos or should I upgrade and something else?
The upgrade of lfp is necessary for these hp goals?
Does inlets and outlets really help in upgraded twins?
Thanks guys.
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Default 10-06-2017, 01:04 PM

for reliability, OEM turbos but you'll be beating them hard to get 500 whp.

for easy 500 whp, Pure Stage 2, VTT GC lites, RB has some, etc.

There is no hard data anywhere on how long any of these aftermarket upgraded turbos last - just anecdotes, and posts online. So no one can answer that really. Pure Turbos probably has the best reputation for reliability of aftermarket turbos.

Yes JB4 can handle twins easily - read up more if you're asking that.
Yes upgrade LPFP.
Yes, highly recommended to do inlets and oulets at same time as turbos. They make great power (say 20-30 whp more on upgraded twins), and will actually ease the stress on the turbos to make a given boost level (lower wastegate duty cycle) since they can breathe in/out easier.


2017 AMG C63 - JB4 - 11.69 @ 127 (dragy)
2009 BMW 535i - 548 whp - sold
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chiefsotos chiefsotos is offline
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Default 10-06-2017, 02:26 PM

If I want to go on single turbo, what is the best choice?
Does jb4 can handle it alone, or there should be and something else?
At about 500hp and 93 gas only which choice is safer? Single or twins?
Should I need upgraded tmap sensors also in both setups?
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 10-07-2017, 05:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefsotos
Hello, this is my first post in this forum, although I read many threads especially for turbos.
I have a n54 335 with 97.000kms and proceed rev3, free less Dowpipes, fully free less exhaust, intercooler forge and dual cones.
My wastegates are on their last, i have a lot of rattling and sometimes stack fully open.
What is the best turbo upgrade with hp goals around 500hp.
I will use only 93 pump gas and nothing else.
I would like the best durability in time and last more than 60.000kms.
Should I go with something like pure stage 2 or go single turbo setup;
If I change the proceed rev 3 with jb4 can jb4 handle the new turbos or should I upgrade and something else?
The upgrade of lfp is necessary for these hp goals?
Does inlets and outlets really help in upgraded twins?
Thanks guys.
I am currently upgrading my car with the goal of a 500WHP on 93 octane and close to 600WHP with meth.

I chose RB next gen plus turbos with the upgraded billet wastgates. (because my car had similar issues with sticking wastegates and a lot of wategate rattle. So I chose the upgraded wastegates)

The biggest mod that I did for durability was inlets and outlets. If you search you can find before and after dyno runs with and without inlets. The inlets reduce wastegate duty cycle and increase the boost (1.3 psi in the example I saw) with the same tune. When you see the stock inlets next to aftermarket inlets its pretty darn obvious the stockers are a choke point for airflow.

Rob at RBturbo suggested that I start with stock fueling and see what I get, and add a stg 2 fuel upgrade if needed. Not sure about the proceed tuner, I assume that can be used by a tuner to help reach your 500HP goal. I am currently using a JB4 with MHD back end flash. I plan to use Tribela on this forum to tune my car after the new clutch is broken in.


2010 E88 135i manual/sport package

KWV3'3, M3 arms | ARC 8's 235/275 PS4s | MFactory Flywheel w/ Spec Stage 2+| AR downp*pes | Magnaflows | 7" VRSF IC| RB Next Gen +| inlets/outlets | ER Charge pipe| Tial BOV| BMS intake| JB4 with BEF | fuel-it stage 2 bucketless and Holley hydromat | NGK colder plugs | MHD back end flash and jb4
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 10-07-2017, 05:38 PM

Any setup that will make 500whp on 93 octane is going to have more lag that the stock turbos. Upgraded twins will do it with more low end torque, an upgraded single will sacrifice some early torque and have more top end hp.

An upgraded single is about double the cost. At least for the quality kits I looked at.


2010 E88 135i manual/sport package

KWV3'3, M3 arms | ARC 8's 235/275 PS4s | MFactory Flywheel w/ Spec Stage 2+| AR downp*pes | Magnaflows | 7" VRSF IC| RB Next Gen +| inlets/outlets | ER Charge pipe| Tial BOV| BMS intake| JB4 with BEF | fuel-it stage 2 bucketless and Holley hydromat | NGK colder plugs | MHD back end flash and jb4
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Tuppidsay Tuppidsay is offline
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Default 10-07-2017, 09:58 PM

Agree with 135iam, to do it on a 93 only you need bigger turbos. bigger than what you would need with meth or e85. Basically you need lots of boost or more accurately more flow and minimal ign timing. GC's should be able to do it. but with more lag. GC lites might do it with minimal increase in lag.


2008 BMW 535i SPORT - FBO - VTT GC V2 - JB4 - Duane Pugh BEF - Bms PI Meth
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chiefsotos chiefsotos is offline
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Default 10-08-2017, 12:22 PM

The inlets and outlets you wear, can be combined with any upgrade twins?
Or the space is limited? Which inlets and outlets are the best?
Why do you have jb4 and mhd flash and not just jb4?
The pure turbos have the same wastegate as the stock one?
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 10-08-2017, 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefsotos
The inlets and outlets you wear, can be combined with any upgrade twins?
Or the space is limited? Which inlets and outlets are the best?
Why do you have jb4 and mhd flash and not just jb4?
The pure turbos have the same wastegate as the stock one?
Typically, upgraded twins use stock location/sized outlets. Inlets can be either stock sized (1.75") our oversized (2").

Quite a few options for inlets/outlets (RBs, VVT, MMP, TFT, VRSF). I have RB as I bought them in a combo deal with RB turbos. My second choice would be VRSF as I have had good experience with their products. I have no experience with the others. When buying inlets and hybrids, just make sure the inlet sizes match the turbos and inlet feedback is good.

At the top of the n54 forum there is a sticky talking about the MHD backend flash.

I do not know of any hybrids that upgrade the wastegates other than RB. Since wastegate rattle is most common with stock turbos, I assume other hybrids are improving upon the stock wastegates.


2010 E88 135i manual/sport package

KWV3'3, M3 arms | ARC 8's 235/275 PS4s | MFactory Flywheel w/ Spec Stage 2+| AR downp*pes | Magnaflows | 7" VRSF IC| RB Next Gen +| inlets/outlets | ER Charge pipe| Tial BOV| BMS intake| JB4 with BEF | fuel-it stage 2 bucketless and Holley hydromat | NGK colder plugs | MHD back end flash and jb4
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Default 10-10-2017, 08:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuppidsay
GC's should be able to do it. but with more lag. GC lites might do it with minimal increase in lag.
'might'?
GC lites will do 500 whp easily.
GC would be overkill but also do it with slightly more lag (based on VTT dynos/info).


2017 AMG C63 - JB4 - 11.69 @ 127 (dragy)
2009 BMW 535i - 548 whp - sold
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 10-10-2017, 08:57 AM

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...screen-27.jpeg

^^^GC's on 93 octane (509WHP at 22PSI)


2010 E88 135i manual/sport package

KWV3'3, M3 arms | ARC 8's 235/275 PS4s | MFactory Flywheel w/ Spec Stage 2+| AR downp*pes | Magnaflows | 7" VRSF IC| RB Next Gen +| inlets/outlets | ER Charge pipe| Tial BOV| BMS intake| JB4 with BEF | fuel-it stage 2 bucketless and Holley hydromat | NGK colder plugs | MHD back end flash and jb4
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Default 10-10-2017, 10:22 AM

Your point? that was on lower boost, and it made almost 568 whp with higher boost. Still on 93 octane. With e85 numbers would be higher still. To say the turbos 'might' make 500 is erroneous - They clearly can do so easily on pump gas.

did you even read the full article that graph is from?

http://www.boostaddict.com/content.p...s-dyno-results


2017 AMG C63 - JB4 - 11.69 @ 127 (dragy)
2009 BMW 535i - 548 whp - sold

Last edited by LessIsMore; 10-10-2017 at 10:27 AM..
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 10-10-2017, 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessIsMore
your point? that was run 4 of 12, apparently (don't know the context of that graph) - and it made almost 568 whp. 509whp was before dialing in.
The OP is looking for 500whp on 93 only and asked for durable.
IMO this is a good option to do that.

I wouldnt call over 25psi on 93 only durable, but thats just me


2010 E88 135i manual/sport package

KWV3'3, M3 arms | ARC 8's 235/275 PS4s | MFactory Flywheel w/ Spec Stage 2+| AR downp*pes | Magnaflows | 7" VRSF IC| RB Next Gen +| inlets/outlets | ER Charge pipe| Tial BOV| BMS intake| JB4 with BEF | fuel-it stage 2 bucketless and Holley hydromat | NGK colder plugs | MHD back end flash and jb4
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Tuppidsay Tuppidsay is offline
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Default 10-10-2017, 10:34 AM

I said might because I don't know for sure. I know gc will. I never bothered to push my gc lites on pump. Plus my pump is only 92.


2008 BMW 535i SPORT - FBO - VTT GC V2 - JB4 - Duane Pugh BEF - Bms PI Meth
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Default 10-10-2017, 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135iam
The OP is looking for 500whp on 93 only and asked for durable.
IMO this is a good option to do that.

I wouldnt call over 25psi on 93 only durable, but thats just me
That is just you. Boost pressure has little to do with how durable or long-term reliable it is. Boost pressure can result in different hp on different cars/set ups. I.e. One car might make that 500 whp on only 21 psi.

Point is: GC lites have been shown to hit 550 whp easily on pump 93, and are advertised as supporting 700+ whp. So to say they 'might' do 500 whp is silly - they will, and do it easily, even on just pump and low boost. Period.

As for 'durable' (assuming what we're talking aobut here is actually "reliability"): that is a discussion divorced from capability.

500 whp is under-utilizing GC lites for their power capabilities and whp range, and under-utilization usually means longer life of a part. Other factors like build quality, oil flow, maintenance/care, etc. that would affect reliability are just as if not more important, though not related to power output.


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2009 BMW 535i - 548 whp - sold
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 10-10-2017, 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessIsMore
That is just you. Boost pressure has little to do with how durable or long-term reliable it is. Boost pressure can result in different hp on different cars/set ups. I.e. One car might make that 500 whp on only 21 psi.

Point is: GC lites have been shown to hit 550 whp easily on pump 93, and are advertised as supporting 700+ whp. So to say they 'might' do 500 whp is silly - they will, and do it easily, even on just pump and low boost. Period.

As for 'durable' (assuming what we're talking aobut here is actually "reliability"): that is a discussion divorced from capability.

500 whp is under-utilizing GC lites for their power capabilities and whp range, and under-utilization usually means longer life of a part. Other factors like build quality, oil flow, maintenance/care, etc. that would affect reliability are just as if not more important, though not related to power output.
Likely a poor dyno example to share anyway as that was done with port injection, but like you stated very capable hybrids


2010 E88 135i manual/sport package

KWV3'3, M3 arms | ARC 8's 235/275 PS4s | MFactory Flywheel w/ Spec Stage 2+| AR downp*pes | Magnaflows | 7" VRSF IC| RB Next Gen +| inlets/outlets | ER Charge pipe| Tial BOV| BMS intake| JB4 with BEF | fuel-it stage 2 bucketless and Holley hydromat | NGK colder plugs | MHD back end flash and jb4
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Default 10-11-2017, 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135iam
Likely a poor dyno example to share anyway as that was done with port injection, but like you stated very capable hybrids
Having PI does NOT make it a bad example. In fact, being sure there is plenty of fuel available allows us to truly see what the turbo can do, independent of other limiting factors.

There is no reason you can't run 93 with PI.

In fact, you're probably never going to make 500 whp on 93 without supplemental fueling of some kind, so it's probably more relevant to the OP anyway.


2017 AMG C63 - JB4 - 11.69 @ 127 (dragy)
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N54QC N54QC is offline
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Default 10-11-2017, 01:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessIsMore
Having PI does NOT make it a bad example. In fact, being sure there is plenty of fuel available allows us to truly see what the turbo can do, independent of other limiting factors.

There is no reason you can't run 93 with PI.

In fact, you're probably never going to make 500 whp on 93 without supplemental fueling of some kind, so it's probably more relevant to the OP anyway.
My guess is that if his fuel system is working properly, he'll be octane limited before he is fuel limited if running 93. I would say that's what most people run into and is why they add a supplemental fuels.


VTT Stage 2+ | JB4 G5 w/ Trebila BEF | Fuel-It Stage 3 | XHP Stage 3 | BL Coils | VTT Inlets | MMP Outlets | BMS Meth Dual 10/5CM | VRSF 7" FMIC | VRSF **'s | BMS CP | BMS DCI | Turbosmart Dual Port | 3.5 TMAP | BMS OCC | VTT PVC | BMS Anti-Lag | NGK 5992 | M3 Rear Upper Controls And Godspeed TB's | Lock-Down Brace | 235/285-18 PSS
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