N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion
(#101)
Old
protuning freaks protuning freaks is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 57
Join Date: Feb 2015
Car: BMW 335i
Default 02-16-2015, 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
In our testing here the Cobb off the shelf Stage2+ Aggr, their strongest map, made around 5-10whp more than JB4 map 2 with the factory flash. This was posted in 2012. I retested it in 2013 with their latest maps and the results were similar. You'll note I've not disputed or taken issue with that part of your post. 365whp JB4 only seems a bit weak but if Cobb S2+ Aggr (a 17+psi map) only did 370whp then it sounds like its in the ball park. Close enough for government work as far as I'm concerned. And we showed in those old posts you could also just raise the boost in the JB4 up another pound to better match up power wise.

If someone is looking to go with a tune and comparing the Cobb off the shelf maps to the JB4 only off the shelf with no free back end flash, then there are many factors other than just raw power to consider. For example: The S2+ Aggr map is simply more aggressive than the off the shelf JB4 map on pump gas. Adding in E85 changes the equation greatly. Many cars are unable to run the Cobb maps without tuning issues that require custom tuning to fix. The JB4 includes many features not found on a Cobb setup. The JB4 is less expensive and easier to tinker with at home. Running the JB4 with less boost, more advance, at a leaner AFR, to get a comparable power level, results in better fuel economy than the Cobb OTS maps. etc. etc. Then when you start to get in to adding in the free back end flash, and custom tuning each system, the equations all change again.

Again, all of this is fairly irrelevant to the discussion, and not the reason your post has drawn the reaction it did from myself and others.
This and countless other cars have no issues running OTS maps from Cobb. If that weren't the case we'd hear about it as we did with their initial maps and Cobb updated them a long time ago. Since then very few if any issues are reported. I don't see this any different than you turning around support emails on your own product just like Cobb does for their own.

You quickly glance over the fact that the Cobb Stage 2+ aggressive map is a complete tune with appropriate fuel, timing, vanos and boost set well within the efficiency of the hardware it is recommended for. With the JB and no backend flash you have no choice but to stay at the conservative boost levels and your documentation says for example NOT to run map 7 unless you're running high octane. Why is that? Why not just throw all that boost on the car? We all know that is not what it takes and it would make for a horribly risky tune that is way overadvanced for the amount of boost and octane it is running.

Apples to apples, JB Map 2 OTS (most aggressive JB pump gas map) vs. Cobb OTS Stage 2+ Agg (most aggressive Cobb off the shelf pump map), anyone with half a brain can go out there and confirm these results for themselves and while doing so look at logs and see what knock looks like on one vs. the other.

Once you get into tweaks, you're doing custom tuning and you might as well do it right. Whether you use JB for boost control or not that is a matter preference and in some cases it is required such as going past the OEM tmap sensor.
Reply With Quote
(#102)
Old
BostonBeemah's Avatar
BostonBeemah BostonBeemah is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 831
Join Date: Sep 2011
Car: AW 135i
Default 02-16-2015, 04:29 PM

I just want some
Attached Images
 


2010 AW/BLK 135i VM 6465 Single Turbo, JB4 + MHD, VRSF CP & Tial, Big Tom, Fuel-It PI + Stage 3 + Return + Ethanol Sensor, BMW PE, MFactory LSD & Axles, Spec 3+ & MFactory SMFW, RB External PCV
Best stock turbo 12.5 @ 19.46 spinning all the way down
RIP 2008 AW/BL 135i
Reply With Quote
(#103)
Old
musc's Avatar
musc musc is offline
 
Posts: 770
Join Date: Jan 2008
Car: 335is DCT
Default 02-16-2015, 04:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBeemah
I just want some
+1
Attached Images
  


335is DCT
Reply With Quote
(#104)
Old
BostonShant's Avatar
BostonShant BostonShant is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 383
Join Date: Mar 2012
Car: 135i
Default 02-16-2015, 04:51 PM

+1


Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBeemah
I just want some


2011 135i - N55 - JB4 ISO - FBO + Meth + Corn
VTT JB Stage 2 with VTT Forge DV and VTT N55 Waste Gate Upgrade

Pump Gas
60' ... 1.850
1/8 MPH ... 98.06
1/4 ... 11.735
Trap ... 122.71
Reply With Quote
(#105)
Old
Torgus Torgus is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 496
Join Date: Jul 2013
Car: 335xi
Default 02-16-2015, 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by protuning freaks
109.12 psi stock is stock, we typically don't push those very hard as the OEM FMIC will just heat soak almost instantly.
OK so what is the max psi on 93 you would tune for on an e90 100% stock if a customer asked you?


E92 ACF 6466 + AM Meth / E70 #1 / E70 #2 JBD

Got Boost?
Reply With Quote
(#106)
Old
2Times's Avatar
2Times 2Times is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 70
Join Date: Oct 2013
Car: 08 E92 335xi
Default 02-16-2015, 05:03 PM

Cliff notes from how I read the first 3 pages:

PTF comes off as a 15 y/o boy bragging that his 4 inch penis is 14 inches and won't pull it out.

Terry comes off as Gandalf by holding his composure.
Reply With Quote
(#107)
Old
Dirty Dog's Avatar
Dirty Dog Dirty Dog is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 224
Join Date: Jan 2011
Car: 135i
Default 02-16-2015, 05:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by protuning freaks
This and countless other cars have no issues running OTS maps from Cobb. If that weren't the case we'd hear about it as we did with their initial maps and Cobb updated them a long time ago. Since then very few if any issues are reported. I don't see this any different than you turning around support emails on your own product just like Cobb does for their own.

You quickly glance over the fact that the Cobb Stage 2+ aggressive map is a complete tune with appropriate fuel, timing, vanos and boost set well within the efficiency of the hardware it is recommended for. With the JB and no backend flash you have no choice but to stay at the conservative boost levels and your documentation says for example NOT to run map 7 unless you're running high octane. Why is that? Why not just throw all that boost on the car? We all know that is not what it takes and it would make for a horribly risky tune that is way overadvanced for the amount of boost and octane it is running.

Apples to apples, JB Map 2 OTS (most aggressive JB pump gas map) vs. Cobb OTS Stage 2+ Agg (most aggressive Cobb off the shelf pump map), anyone with half a brain can go out there and confirm these results for themselves and while doing so look at logs and see what knock looks like on one vs. the other.

Once you get into tweaks, you're doing custom tuning and you might as well do it right. Whether you use JB for boost control or not that is a matter preference and in some cases it is required such as going past the OEM tmap sensor.
Let's not forget it was you who messed up here so stop trying to call Terry out on ridiculous claims. You shot yourself in the foot yesterday by starting that thread on e90.

I've had a Protune from PTF and the JB4 with Backend flash is definitely more powerful plus you get all the added features.


135i - JB4 15ohm l Mr 5 Intake l AA C@tless ********* l ETS Intercooler l BMS Methanol Injection l Berk Tech Mids l Berk Tech Axleback l BMS OCC l ER CP l Turbosmart BOV's. SOLD

335i DCT - JB4 G5 ISO l AA C@tless ********* l ETS Intercooler l Custom Intake l Meth l BMS E85 Flash l BMS OCC l ER CP l Walbro 255 l Turbosmart BOV's. CURRENT
Reply With Quote
(#108)
Old
paradoxical3 paradoxical3 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 196
Join Date: Aug 2012
Car: BMW x1 35i xDrive
Default 02-16-2015, 05:26 PM

It is utterly amazing to me to watch tuning/modding companies continue to shoot themselves in the foot over, and over, and over again.

I swear to God, sometimes I think I could make a fortune in this industry not by doing anything special or remarkable or innovative, but by just not committing professional suicide through dumb-ass forum posts. In other words, I just described Dinan and Cobb. You would think more tuners would figure out that the best way to make money is to keep your mouth shut and not start petty **** like this. PTF just looks bad.


Earth to tuning companies:

1. Making a claim about a competitor on social media makes you look weak
2. Not posting the data behind that claim (logs in this case) makes you look pathetic and dishonest
3. Neither of these things are good for business

How do I tag VTT and PTF and Shiv and the countless other social rejects/abject business failures in this industry?
Reply With Quote
(#109)
Old
Dirty Dog's Avatar
Dirty Dog Dirty Dog is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 224
Join Date: Jan 2011
Car: 135i
Default 02-16-2015, 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3
It is utterly amazing to me to watch tuning/modding companies continue to shoot themselves in the foot over, and over, and over again.

I swear to God, sometimes I think I could make a fortune in this industry not by doing anything special or remarkable or innovative, but by just not committing professional suicide through dumb-ass forum posts. In other words, I just described Dinan and Cobb. You would think more tuners would figure out that the best way to make money is to keep your mouth shut and not get involved in petty **** like this.


Earth to tuning companies:

1. Making a claim about a competitor on social media makes you look weak
2. Not posting the data behind that claim (logs in this case) makes you look pathetic and dishonest
3. Neither of these things are good for business

How do I tag VTT and PTF and Shiv and the countless other social rejects/abject business failures in this industry?
Well said.

I guess PTF would have gained some noob customers with that thread but would have lost him at least 4-5 times more customers than he was potentially going to gain in the near future.

Terry has the right attitude and approach in this industry, hence why people are more comfortable going with him and his products.


135i - JB4 15ohm l Mr 5 Intake l AA C@tless ********* l ETS Intercooler l BMS Methanol Injection l Berk Tech Mids l Berk Tech Axleback l BMS OCC l ER CP l Turbosmart BOV's. SOLD

335i DCT - JB4 G5 ISO l AA C@tless ********* l ETS Intercooler l Custom Intake l Meth l BMS E85 Flash l BMS OCC l ER CP l Walbro 255 l Turbosmart BOV's. CURRENT
Reply With Quote
(#110)
Old
boost junkie boost junkie is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 177
Join Date: Jul 2013
Car: bmw
Default 02-16-2015, 05:41 PM

PTFs credibility

Reply With Quote
(#111)
Old
Dirty Dog's Avatar
Dirty Dog Dirty Dog is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 224
Join Date: Jan 2011
Car: 135i
Default 02-16-2015, 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie
PTFs credibility



I think PTF's "PROtunes" just became $49.


135i - JB4 15ohm l Mr 5 Intake l AA C@tless ********* l ETS Intercooler l BMS Methanol Injection l Berk Tech Mids l Berk Tech Axleback l BMS OCC l ER CP l Turbosmart BOV's. SOLD

335i DCT - JB4 G5 ISO l AA C@tless ********* l ETS Intercooler l Custom Intake l Meth l BMS E85 Flash l BMS OCC l ER CP l Walbro 255 l Turbosmart BOV's. CURRENT
Reply With Quote
(#112)
Old
Terry @ BMS's Avatar
Terry @ BMS Terry @ BMS is offline
Tuner
 
Posts: 32,844
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default 02-16-2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by protuning freaks
With the JB and no backend flash you have no choice but to stay at the conservative boost levels and your documentation says for example NOT to run map 7 unless you're running high octane. Why is that? Why not just throw all that boost on the car?
Uh, because the JB4 without a back end flash is running a lot more advance than the Cobb S2+ map? Which is why it makes similar power at 14psi vs. 17psi+ on the Cobb map? On the Cobb aggressive OTS maps working perfectly for everyone, my experience has been different, but I'll take your word for it since you're the one selling Cobb tunes.

I think I've wasted enough of my time today reading and replying to nonsense. If you want to further the discussion post the logs of the JB4 runs and your runs and we can discuss the differences in detail.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
Reply With Quote
(#113)
Old
protuning freaks protuning freaks is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 57
Join Date: Feb 2015
Car: BMW 335i
Default 02-16-2015, 05:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Dog
Let's not forget it was you who messed up here so stop trying to call Terry out on ridiculous claims. You shot yourself in the foot yesterday by starting that thread on e90.

I've had a Protune from PTF and the JB4 with Backend flash is definitely more powerful plus you get all the added features.
We have not used a JB4 for boost control for years. Customer came to us with the JB on his car and we updated it to the latest firmware and software and ran it first without the backend flash and then with the BMS backend flash. If we had ulterior motives at all and were interested in skewing results there are far easier ways than making sure another tune is running the most recent firmware, software and tuning. That is not us.

If you look at the BMS documentation on their forum you will notice that 4/2 and 4/3 settings mention throttle mapping changes. It does not refer to boost and it certainly doesn't mention that anyone should run a setting of 4/3 when running a backend flash. This is not our documentation to maintain. We simply used what was available and provided results.

Here's a link to the JB4 G5 user guide:
http://n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10605

Here's a link to the backend flash loading procedure and JB setup:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20563

Those posts are maintained by BMS and do not mention a "preferred" setting of 4/3 on the JB. On the contrary there is mention of 4/2 for a more linear pedal to boost mapping! Given how apparently important that is we expected it would be clearly documented for backend flash users.

Regardless, we made an honest oversight as we weren't aware of what 4/2 and 4/3 do due to lack of documentation which we have already mentioned earlier. We are saying we will redyno with it in place and we will actually do it. Runs will be posted to round of off the shelf map dyno data gathering.

FYI, here's a screenshot of the JB4 G5 user guide showing the settings documentation including 4/2 and 4/3.

Reply With Quote
(#114)
Old
protuning freaks protuning freaks is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 57
Join Date: Feb 2015
Car: BMW 335i
Default 02-16-2015, 05:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Uh, because the JB4 without a back end flash is running a lot more advance than the Cobb S2+ map? Which is why it makes similar power at 14psi vs. 17psi+ on the Cobb map? On the Cobb aggressive OTS maps working perfectly for everyone, my experience has been different, but I'll take your word for it since you're the one selling Cobb tunes.

I think I've wasted enough of my time today reading and replying to nonsense. If you want to further the discussion post the logs of the JB4 runs and your runs and we can discuss the differences in detail.
JB can't do 14psi without in gear timing pulls. You've got plenty of those logs floating around showing timing pull. I'll trade you give dozen JB logs showing timing corrections on 93 octane for every N54 FBO log running a Cobb stage 2+aggressive map that you find pulling timing.

You've wasted both of our time today by starting this thread. We'll post 4-3 runs and pick up from there, or not if you're not interested in participating.
Reply With Quote
(#115)
Old
Terry @ BMS's Avatar
Terry @ BMS Terry @ BMS is offline
Tuner
 
Posts: 32,844
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default 02-16-2015, 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by protuning freaks
FYI, here's a screenshot of the JB4 G5 user guide showing the settings documentation including 4/2 and 4/3.
Honestly I think you're just playing stupid on it. You saw the JB4 was running 14psi on a low timing flash and instead of asking why just ran with the results and tried to pull it off as if they were proper tests. And in my opinion you're really a fool not to post the logs requested. Why blow up your business over something so trivial? Once you lose credibility it's pretty hard to get it back IMHO.

re: 4/3 it's been discussed ad nauseum many times in many places. It's the default setting so you must have set it to 4/2...

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=12


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
Reply With Quote
(#116)
Old
Torgus Torgus is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 496
Join Date: Jul 2013
Car: 335xi
Default 02-16-2015, 06:13 PM

Ptf please respond to my above post. I am a paying customer.


E92 ACF 6466 + AM Meth / E70 #1 / E70 #2 JBD

Got Boost?
Reply With Quote
(#117)
Old
protuning freaks protuning freaks is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 57
Join Date: Feb 2015
Car: BMW 335i
Default 02-16-2015, 06:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Honestly I think you're just playing stupid on it. You saw the JB4 was running 14psi on a low timing flash and instead of asking why just ran with the results and tried to pull it off as if they were proper tests. And in my opinion you're really a fool not to post the logs requested. Why blow up your business over something so trivial? Once you lose credibility it's pretty hard to get it back IMHO.

re: 4/3 it's been discussed ad nauseum many times in many places. It's the default setting so you must have set it to 4/2...

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=12
Only thing 'blowing' is you blowing hot air everywhere not knowing what way you'll spin your next post. 1) We provided dynos. 2) We will dyno on 4-3 as well 3) Document your tune better so people don't need to search forums for such 'key' settings 4) If the JB can't do its thing properly on the factory tune why not include a pamphlet with a link to download the backend flash?

5) I'll start a new discussion on the newly discovered knock tables and their indexing based on mass airflow and we'll go from there in another discussion coming soon about piggybacks. That'll be fun.

Last edited by protuning freaks; 02-16-2015 at 06:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
(#118)
Old
protuning freaks protuning freaks is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 57
Join Date: Feb 2015
Car: BMW 335i
Default 02-16-2015, 06:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus
OK so what is the max psi on 93 you would tune for on an e90 100% stock if a customer asked you?
Torgus flash tuning doesn't target boost. It targets load and load isn't flat across the RPM range on a stock car, it tapers down quite a bit on bone stock cars due to the OEM FMIC on pump gas. Typically 15psi or so but it depends what the tune is set for but you could go to 17psi down low with appropriate changes to other tables. The higher you go the more you turbos hate you for pushing them that hard given OEM cats in place.
Reply With Quote
(#119)
Old
Torgus Torgus is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 496
Join Date: Jul 2013
Car: 335xi
Default 02-16-2015, 06:27 PM

No ****. So what is the max peak psi on a stock e90 on pump 93 you would prutune? Simple question...what psi would you not give a customer?


E92 ACF 6466 + AM Meth / E70 #1 / E70 #2 JBD

Got Boost?
Reply With Quote
(#120)
Old
protuning freaks protuning freaks is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 57
Join Date: Feb 2015
Car: BMW 335i
Default 02-16-2015, 06:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus
No ****. So what is the max peak psi on a stock e90 on pump 93 you would prutune? Simple question...what psi would you not give a customer?
I believe I've answered your question already to the best of my ability.
Reply With Quote
(#121)
Old
Torgus Torgus is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 496
Join Date: Jul 2013
Car: 335xi
Default 02-16-2015, 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by protuning freaks
I believe I've answered your question already to the best of my ability.
What is the max peak boost you would tune a stock e90 on 93 with a ptf tune? Simple question.


E92 ACF 6466 + AM Meth / E70 #1 / E70 #2 JBD

Got Boost?

Last edited by Torgus; 02-16-2015 at 06:43 PM..
Reply With Quote
(#122)
Old
protuning freaks protuning freaks is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 57
Join Date: Feb 2015
Car: BMW 335i
Default 02-16-2015, 06:43 PM

I'm really not sure what an absolute max would be as I'm not one to push stock cars. There is what I'm comfortable with and that's what has been described already so I guess your answer is I'm comfortable at 15psi but could go to 17 in the low end.
Reply With Quote
(#123)
Old
paradoxical3 paradoxical3 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 196
Join Date: Aug 2012
Car: BMW x1 35i xDrive
Default 02-16-2015, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by protuning freaks
Only thing 'blowing' is you blowing hot air everywhere not knowing what way you'll spin your next post.
Just stop. Either post the logs or go away. Terry has consistently been there for his customers and has been commendably open with every dyno graph and thread he has posted.
Reply With Quote
(#124)
Old
musc's Avatar
musc musc is offline
 
Posts: 770
Join Date: Jan 2008
Car: 335is DCT
Default 02-16-2015, 07:18 PM

I feel bad for Torgus, lol. Paying customer can't get an answer!


335is DCT
Reply With Quote
(#125)
Old
Newguy123's Avatar
Newguy123 Newguy123 is offline
Demigod
 
Posts: 1,785
Join Date: May 2014
Car: 12' 135i
Default 02-16-2015, 07:32 PM



18 Glacier white RS3
#PURETURBOS
#FUELIT
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright 2007 - 2020, N54tech.com