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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default N54 coldstart clatter/rattle noise (90sec.) - no wastegate or exhaust flap issue - 07-07-2012, 05:27 AM

Hello there,

This is Sebastian from Germany. I'll try to write as good (grammatical) as I can! Excuse for mistakes

I've been in serveral communitys and described my problem. But without any solution yet :-(

Maybe you could help me

The Car:
Build: 12/2006
Miles: 86.000 (~144.000km)
Petrol: 98roz only

Established:
High Pressure Fuel Pump was changed at 72.000 miles. There's a wastegate rattling, but it's not annoying. If you don't know it, you wouldn't hear it
The Exhaust Flap makes noises at coldstart, but it's actually not the problem - if I unplug the vacuum hose, the noise disappears.

Situation:
The car is parked for a while (about 6h, if the engine is cold)

Problem:
If I start up the cold engine, in the first 90 seconds it appears an annoying rattle, coming in top of the engine (as you can see in the red marked area)


I'll no try describe how the rattling is appearing: I push the Start/Stop button and the rpm goes up the 1500rpm and falls immediately to 1200rpm (common startup). however, once the rpm drops to 1200rpm the rattling begins. Now the motor is going to heat and the rpm will drop at 600rpm within ~90 seconds. At idle the noise is disappeared.

Video of my car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttq4ltY4fDc

I already changes the engine oil to 0w40 and tried the injection-cleaner by liqui moly. But it doesn't worked at all.

On the internet I found another video of that noise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbYDbcn89Ew

might be a problem of the direct injection system?
maybe the injectors or simply any heat shield vibration?

Thank you for your help!
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xbox_fan xbox_fan is offline
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Default 07-07-2012, 06:30 AM

try removing the engine top cover and take a look, there is metal brackets holding the injectors etc maybe something is loose?
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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-07-2012, 06:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xbox_fan
try removing the engine top cover and take a look, there is metal brackets holding the injectors etc maybe something is loose?
Okay, thank your for that tip!
But why does it only rattle at cold start? When the engine is "warm", you won't recognize any rattling..
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Default 07-07-2012, 07:47 AM

injectors make lots of noise.. once they are warm they mayke much less.


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Eleventeen Eleventeen is offline
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Default 07-07-2012, 07:48 AM

My guess would be noisy lifters. Sometimes hydraulic lifters have to "pump up" after they have been sitting a while (hydraulic lifters fill with oil and are supposed to self adjust so that no manual adjustment is required). As they wear, they become louder on startup.

You're absolutely sure it's not coming from the turbo area, correct? One of the wastegates remains open until initial warmup is complete and will rattle like a snake until it closes.




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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-08-2012, 08:18 AM

@mobilefitt
okay, next time I start the engine I'll look out for that. thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleventeen
My guess would be noisy lifters. Sometimes hydraulic lifters have to "pump up" after they have been sitting a while (hydraulic lifters fill with oil and are supposed to self adjust so that no manual adjustment is required). As they wear, they become louder on startup.
You are right, the first thing I thought was that the hydraulic valve lifters are making noises. But 300 miles ago a made a motor oil change (with lower vicosity oil), but I couldn't noticed any changes. So I guess, that's not the problem..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleventeen
You're absolutely sure it's not coming from the turbo area, correct? One of the wastegates remains open until initial warmup is complete and will rattle like a snake until it closes.
No! That might be interessting!
A friend of mine got a high&low-pressure pump. Next time I meet him, I'am going to ask him for that pump. Maybe I can close the wastegate on startup and see what happen.
In case of a wastegate problem: is there any possibility to program the control modul that the wastegate is permanently closed at startup?
Thank you!!
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GtiGyver GtiGyver is offline
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Default 07-08-2012, 07:48 PM

Pretty sure its the valvetronic setting when the engine is cold where the valve timing is set for quick catalytic converter warmup.
If the sound lasts ~60-90seconds and stops suddenly, that's the same thing I experience in cold weather.
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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-09-2012, 03:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GtiGyver
Pretty sure its the valvetronic setting when the engine is cold where the valve timing is set for quick catalytic converter warmup.
If the sound lasts ~60-90seconds and stops suddenly, that's the same thing I experience in cold weather.
hmm, okay.. the sound decreases within 90 seconds (it's like someone turn the volumne down, in 3 or 4 steps).
so what can I do? :-/ Is there actually any solution?

EDIT: are you really sure? because the noise comes from behind not in front of the engine (if you stay in front of our car)

Last edited by Sebbo335; 07-09-2012 at 04:03 AM..
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Xearo Xearo is offline
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Default 07-09-2012, 06:06 AM

I've heard that the valvetronic solenoid/actuator/whatever it is, is located on the back of the head on the end of the camshaft. This would fit with the location of the sound.

Again, this is just what I've heard. Ill check realoem.com to confirm...

EDIT: To quote wiki:
"New generation 'compact' Valvetronic allows for direct injection to utilized in the N55B30 turbo engine, as seen in the 2010 BMW 5 Series Gran Turismo.
Valvetronic was not found on the directly-injected N53 straight-6, nor was it on the directly-injected and twin-turbocharged N54 straight-6 and N63 V8."

OP's car is a 2006 N54. So no Valvetronic.


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-'08 135i AT - 6466 ST - dead
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-'82 320i

Last edited by Xearo; 07-09-2012 at 06:22 AM..
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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-09-2012, 07:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xearo
I've heard that the valvetronic solenoid/actuator/whatever it is, is located on the back of the head on the end of the camshaft. This would fit with the location of the sound.

Again, this is just what I've heard. Ill check realoem.com to confirm...
I've checked bmwpart.info. It might be part no. 6:


Hmmm.. could it be, that the engine operate (in this case) like an intensifier?
In front of the engine it occures a noise but you recognize it in the middle or end of the engine? -> because the solenoids are in front of the engine..
I'll try to remove those solenoids and clean them. Thank you!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xearo
EDIT: To quote wiki:
"New generation 'compact' Valvetronic allows for direct injection to utilized in the N55B30 turbo engine, as seen in the 2010 BMW 5 Series Gran Turismo.
Valvetronic was not found on the directly-injected N53 straight-6, nor was it on the directly-injected and twin-turbocharged N54 straight-6 and N63 V8."

OP's car is a 2006 N54. So no Valvetronic.
Thank you for that information

EDIT: I've forgot something: When I start the engine I can feel vibrations and the rpm tremors(correct word?^^) a bit. But just at coldstart. Is there (maybe) any relation to the solenoids?

Last edited by Sebbo335; 07-09-2012 at 08:03 AM..
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Vertigo Vertigo is offline
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Default 07-09-2012, 08:05 AM

And #6 Vanos Solenoid is located up front by the radiator and not in the back by the firewall.


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Default 07-09-2012, 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebbo335
I've checked bmwpart.info. It might be part no. 6:


Hmmm.. could it be, that the engine operate (in this case) like an intensifier?
In front of the engine it occures a noise but you recognize it in the middle or end of the engine? -> because the solenoids are in front of the engine..
I'll try to remove those solenoids and clean them. Thank you!!


Thank you for that information

EDIT: I've forgot something: When I start the engine I can feel vibrations and the rpm tremors(correct word?^^) a bit. But just at coldstart. Is there (maybe) any relation to the solenoids?
Nope, you just have loud car... we all do! If you want a smooth refined reliable BMW, trade for a 328i. Sport pack, dress it up, it will sharp and purr like a kitten. I used to have a 330 and I miss it sometimes.

Solenoids come right out, just have to give them a tug, make sure you get an o ring and a plastic coupling on each one when you take them out.

The circle you have on the engine cover on your first posts is where the injectors are. Techron works wonders in our fuel system, others have mentioned that injector noise can be managed with a treatment. Remove the engine cover and start the car. If the noise is louder, (clicking) and rhythmic, it's likely to be our PIEZO injectors. High ethanol gasoline could make them get loud I guess.

Also, tremors could be caused by dirty sensors. T MAP and Boost Pressure sensors could be gummed up. Id remove those sensors and clean before I started looking at the vanos solenoids.
A fuel system cleaning can be done by using the "sea foam" method, dunking the manifold tube that goes to the diverter valves in sea foam, berryman's, stp makes some now, and running half the can through. This will clean off the valves which may be ticking in the background in chorus with the injectors. Id dump the techron in and let the car run for like 10-15 min and then do the sea foam cleaning.

PM me if you have more detailed questions.


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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-09-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilefitt
Nope, you just have loud car... we all do! If you want a smooth refined reliable BMW, trade for a 328i. Sport pack, dress it up, it will sharp and purr like a kitten. I used to have a 330 and I miss it sometimes.
haha, I'll remeber that

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilefitt
Solenoids come right out, just have to give them a tug, make sure you get an o ring and a plastic coupling on each one when you take them out.
Okay, I'm goint to be careful!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilefitt
The circle you have on the engine cover on your first posts is where the injectors are. Techron works wonders in our fuel system, others have mentioned that injector noise can be managed with a treatment. Remove the engine cover and start the car. If the noise is louder, (clicking) and rhythmic, it's likely to be our PIEZO injectors. High ethanol gasoline could make them get loud I guess.
I already removed the engine cover. At cold start I was listening very close and there was a clicking-noise! It's like someone is hammering (with a small peaked hammer) on a stone of iron. I marked the area:


I just use and used gasoline with less than 5% ethanol :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilefitt
Also, tremors could be caused by dirty sensors. T MAP and Boost Pressure sensors could be gummed up. Id remove those sensors and clean before I started looking at the vanos solenoids.
A fuel system cleaning can be done by using the "sea foam" method, dunking the manifold tube that goes to the diverter valves in sea foam, berryman's, stp makes some now, and running half the can through. This will clean off the valves which may be ticking in the background in chorus with the injectors. Id dump the techron in and let the car run for like 10-15 min and then do the sea foam cleaning.
That might be these sensors:
No.8


and

No.6


?

Okay, next time I'm going to try your suggestions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilefitt
PM me if you have more detailed questions.
I'm going to wirte you and the forum If I get any results or changes!!
thank you!
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Eleventeen Eleventeen is offline
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Default 07-09-2012, 07:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebbo335
In case of a wastegate problem: is there any possibility to program the control modul that the wastegate is permanently closed at startup?
Thank you!!
Not that I know of, but someone like Cobb may be able to change the DME logic. Not sure it would be worth it, though (assuming that is what you are hearing - my car does it loudly).

Good luck!




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GtiGyver GtiGyver is offline
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Default 07-10-2012, 06:37 AM

Might be a silly question, but how is your oil level and oil pressure?
After hearing that video, that is definitely not the sound I get during the warmup phase.

Sounds more like it *could* be an oil starvation issue (bad oil pump?).
Don't know enough about the valvetronic system to make any comments on that possibility.
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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-10-2012, 08:13 AM

@Eleventeen:
Thank you for the information!


Quote:
Originally Posted by GtiGyver
Might be a silly question, but how is your oil level and oil pressure?
After hearing that video, that is definitely not the sound I get during the warmup phase.

Sounds more like it *could* be an oil starvation issue (bad oil pump?).
Don't know enough about the valvetronic system to make any comments on that possibility.
Oil level is at maximum.
how can I figure out the oil pressure?

First of all, I'm going to do what Mobilefitt and Xearo recommended :-)
When there's no improvement, I'll check the oil pump :-)

I'll report you all!
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Default 07-10-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebbo335
@Eleventeen:
Thank you for the information!




Oil level is at maximum.
how can I figure out the oil pressure?

First of all, I'm going to do what Mobilefitt and Xearo recommended :-)
When there's no improvement, I'll check the oil pump :-)

I'll report you all!
Just a thought, the section you circled in the picture as the location of the sound is where the fuel injectors are. Those a piezo injectors and they can be pretty loud. I also seem to remember there being a big deal with the injectors failing prematurely on early model N54's. Could be a bad injector? Something to maybe look at.

You could try unplugging one at a time to see if the specific noise goes away, but you would gain a mis-fire sound in the process.


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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-11-2012, 05:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xearo
Just a thought, the section you circled in the picture as the location of the sound is where the fuel injectors are. Those a piezo injectors and they can be pretty loud. I also seem to remember there being a big deal with the injectors failing prematurely on early model N54's. Could be a bad injector? Something to maybe look at.

You could try unplugging one at a time to see if the specific noise goes away, but you would gain a mis-fire sound in the process.
Last week, I was visiting a friend. He got the original "Diagnostics Program" by BMW. We checked the Injectors and found out that the Injector at Zylinder 3 a little bit differ from the other Injectors:

Value shout be between -200 and +200, optimum at 0.
Those Values are Maximum and Minimum

Zylinder 1 -> -020 | +030
Zylinder 2 -> -015 | +025
Zylinder 3 -> -040 | +059
Zylinder 4 -> -020 | +031
Zylinder 5 -> -017 | +027
Zylinder 6 -> -018 | +021

As you can see Zylinder 3 stand out but is still in the tolerance.
In case of an injector issue the values might be way different?!

__________________________________________________ ___

Today I cleaned the MAP and Boost Pressure Sensor (with brake cleaner).

MAP sensor before:


After:


The Boost Pressure Sensor was clean at all.

I could not detect any differences. Tremor was still there :-/

BUT!

As I started the engine and stopped it immediately the rattling noise was dieseling(?)/overtravel(?) - don't know the correct word :-/

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9NgFac9Qw

at 18 sec.
In this video you can also hear the tremor..

What do you think?

EDIT: I also disconnected the camshaft solenoids, but the rattling was still there..

Last edited by Sebbo335; 07-11-2012 at 06:04 AM..
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Sebbo335 Sebbo335 is offline
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Default 07-11-2012, 06:36 AM

Problem (for now) solved/discovered:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRZs8uHQCpg

I disconnected the vaccum hose of turbo 2 and the rattling disappeard.

I'll try it again tomorrow morning (to be absolutely sure).

Next question: Is it possible to program the control module to permanentely close the wastegate at coldstart?

EDIT: Today I tested it again. The noise came definitely from the wastegate!

Last edited by Sebbo335; 07-12-2012 at 04:29 AM..
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mai335 mai335 is offline
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Default 07-27-2013, 06:17 AM

Hello Sebbo, I know that this is an old post but I'm hoping you still receive this message. Was this the actual fix that you used for the rattle when you start the car or was it only temporary? I checked out your video and mine sounds exactly the same as your "before" video. Thanks in advance
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Juuzmo Juuzmo is offline
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Default 08-09-2013, 08:30 AM

This cured my rattle http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176269
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mrmax1984 mrmax1984 is offline
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Default 03-24-2016, 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juuzmo
I know this is an old thread, but how has this fix held up now a few years later?
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