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Default JB4 WMI & Flex Fuel features in the works -- and we need some logs! - 02-14-2017, 09:05 PM

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Hey guys,

Working on some cool N54 JB4 upgrades and we're at a point that we need a little more data collected.

Water/meth changes:

1) Adjusted the FSB signal reading to be more responsive and higher resolution. I'm hoping we see the meth signal come in sooner as a result of this change. Note and as part of this we've rescaled the meth flow reading slightly so your value might be lower than it was before. This signal reading change is independent of the FUA=60 test below so a few normal meth logs would be great to evaluate.

2) User adjustable progressive control. Added a new test option (now under WMI page called Enable Pump PWM) which allows you to specify the dutycycle to the methanol pump by RPM. This same logic will be used for other meth enhancements to come down the road, including a high speed WMI solenoid, direct port meth, etc.

To test this logic set (Enable Pump PWM) and then enter a 0-100% curve under "Fuel Bias". I'm interested to see logs from various fuel bias curves. 100% = full flow, 50% = 50% dutycycle (but around 70% flow), etc. Be aware there is not a linear relationship between dutycycle and flow and values below 30 may result in inconsistent pump performance.

With this new (Enable Pump PWM) option, creating a stable meth flow reading with the current FSB has been a challenge and will be a large part of what we're evaluating in your logs. Note that with (Enable Pump PWM) we've changed the "fuel enrich" logging parameter to temporarily output a diagnostic signal.


Virtual flex fuel sensor:

The ultimate goal here is to give the JB4 the ability to detect your ethanol mixture WITHOUT the need of a physical flex fuel sensor. We're using logic similar to OEMs that have largely phased out physical ethanol sensors and instead use software to detect ethanol. To this end we're exploring several possible algorithms and I've come across a simple one that looks promising. With this firmware dutycycle will slowly learn to a value that we hope is roughly promotional to your ethanol mixture and fuel scalar. It is not yet scaled to a ethanol % number but we are working towards that. For now its just lower numbers = less ethanol and higher numbers = more ethanol. Currently for simplicity the algorithm only learns while at idle, when vehicle speed = 0, and oil temperature is > 170 degrees. Down the road we'll expand the learning range, add in the ability for it to quickly reset when you add gas to the tank, etc. It's an ambitious goal and a long process but we need to start somewhere.

I'll be interested to see what value different setups stabilize at. As your fuel scalar setting directly effects the value be sure to let me know which back end flash you have (if any) and your approximate ethanol mixture (if any) when sending in data.


Thanks!


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Default 02-14-2017, 11:04 PM

This has been working pretty well so far. We have paired it with a new port injection controller we've been working on that uses our ethanol sensor and analyzer to adjust supplemental fuel based on the actual ethanol content.

As an example, here are 4 logs with different ethanol concentrations. We started at E32, then moved to E66, then E90, and then finally straight to E15 form E90 without any adjustments to the flash or the port injection maps letting the JB4 and our E85 integration do it's thing. All testing was done on map 7 with the exception of our E15 testing. For that we lowered the boost target due to the poor quality of our 91 octane fuel.

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We still have a little more refinement to do but so far the results have been pretty good. Going forward, once this becomes available, those of you that switch from E85 to pump gas (or any ethanol percentage in between) will no longer need to disable your port injection, adjust the fuel bias, or adjust the PI maps to compensate for your actual ethanol concentration! The JB4 and our new PI controller will do it for you! (and a few other things )



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N54QC N54QC is offline
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Default 02-14-2017, 11:17 PM

This is awesome!!


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Kervio Kervio is offline
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Default 02-15-2017, 03:06 AM

Glad to see new JB4 progress :D and just in time for me to install my meth injection!
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Default 02-15-2017, 06:56 AM

Will give it a try tomorrow night and send some logs,

Do you need 3rd gear 2.5K to WOT logs or full pulls 3, 4 and 5 pulls?


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Default 02-15-2017, 07:13 AM

Wow you did this quick!


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Default 02-15-2017, 09:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushan
Will give it a try tomorrow night and send some logs,

Do you need 3rd gear 2.5K to WOT logs or full pulls 3, 4 and 5 pulls?
Both would be great at least initially.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-15-2017, 07:55 PM

So I have the latest JB4 Pi controller are you releasing another one ?

Just need to clarify
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Default 02-15-2017, 08:06 PM

Same controller. Fuel IT is also working on a new option for those foolish enough not to run a JB4.


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Default 02-15-2017, 08:20 PM

i am a little confused, what exactly does this adjust? i have tbi and always run full e85 with a custom flash i made with scalars so i dont throw any fuel codes. would i benefit from this at all? the e85 right now here in the northeast is only e66 as i have an ethanol sensor.
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Default 02-15-2017, 08:37 PM

If you want to help provide data directions are in the first post!


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-15-2017, 10:30 PM

Another question will this work the other way like from a pump gas flash to straight e85 or does it have to go from a e85 flash and adjust down for straight pump gas ?
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Default 02-15-2017, 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Same controller. Fuel IT is also working on a new option for those foolish enough not to run a JB4.
HUH? That is using the JB4 integration. So oh to the contrary kind sir. JB4 still has control of the injection however the controller auto scales that signal based on ethanol content so not only does the JB4 scale the trims based on ethanol content, the controller scales the port injection duty cycle based on actual ethanol content. It's a win/win!

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
Another question will this work the other way like from a pump gas flash to straight e85 or does it have to go from a e85 flash and adjust down for straight pump gas ?
If you switch from E85 to pump gas, at this time it would be suggested that you switch your flash as the timing targets for E85 are more aggressive than the pump flash targets. The other option would be to obviously lower your boost targets but we found that on crap 91 they needed to be lowered quite a bite when running the E85 flash timing targets.



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Video of our Stage 2 LPFP upgrade installation.

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Default 02-15-2017, 11:30 PM

I might be mis-reading this or misunderstanding but does this new feature eliminate the need for using a external ethonal unit and sensor (ex: what fuel it sells)


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Default 02-16-2017, 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
This has been working pretty well so far. We have paired it with a new port injection controller we've been working on that uses our ethanol sensor and analyzer to adjust supplemental fuel based on the actual ethanol content.

As an example, here are 4 logs with different ethanol concentrations. We started at E32, then moved to E66, then E90, and then finally straight to E15 form E90 without any adjustments to the flash or the port injection maps letting the JB4 and our E85 integration do it's thing. All testing was done on map 7 with the exception of our E15 testing. For that we lowered the boost target due to the poor quality of our 91 octane fuel.

Attachment 59615

Attachment 59620

Attachment 59621

Attachment 59619

We still have a little more refinement to do but so far the results have been pretty good. Going forward, once this becomes available, those of you that switch from E85 to pump gas (or any ethanol percentage in between) will no longer need to disable your port injection, adjust the fuel bias, or adjust the PI maps to compensate for your actual ethanol concentration! The JB4 and our new PI controller will do it for you! (and a few other things )
Wow sweet! Will this also adjust boost as well? Also any idea if this stuff will every make it to the F series N55?


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Default 02-16-2017, 03:09 AM

[QUOTE=Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!;521883]HUH? That is using the JB4 integration. So oh to the contrary kind sir. JB4 still has control of the injection however the controller auto scales that signal based on ethanol content so not only does the JB4 scale the trims based on ethanol content, the controller scales the port injection duty cycle based on actual ethanol content. It's a win/win!

Sounds like a win win for sure. Ok you have my attention.

Any ETA on this project, can't wait to see where this all goes.
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Default 02-16-2017, 05:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
Another question will this work the other way like from a pump gas flash to straight e85 or does it have to go from a e85 flash and adjust down for straight pump gas ?
Or you could just wait for MHD flex fuel, which automatically adjusts timing, AFR, fuel scalar, timing IAT correction factor, cranking enrichment, spool mode timing and AFR, and load target for ANY E% mix, in any direction. It gives an exact ethanol % reading. And I can add any other tables needed to be blended as well.


Enjoying the new tables discovered and the XDF progress made? if you'd like. Every bit is appreciated!
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Default 02-16-2017, 07:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo20032004
I might be mis-reading this or misunderstanding but does this new feature eliminate the need for using a external ethonal unit and sensor (ex: what fuel it sells)
Yea, I have the same question. If the new algorithms are as reliable as an actual sensor that's awesome but if not, it might be nice to use the current ethanol sensor some of us have installed already (from Fuel-it) and feed that into any new hardware or controller. Will that be an option or will that be unnecessary?

Either way, this is something I've been waiting for and am very excited to see!
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Thumbs down JB4 > Motiv Flex Fuel - 02-16-2017, 08:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
Or you could just wait for MHD flex fuel, which automatically adjusts timing, AFR, fuel scalar, timing IAT correction factor, cranking enrichment, spool mode timing and AFR, and load target for ANY E% mix, in any direction. It gives an exact ethanol % reading. And I can add any other tables needed to be blended as well.
Or we could just wait for it to be integrated into the JB4 for free instead of buying a VIN locked tune from you Jake. As someone who's bought a tune from you and two 900 kits I'd rather save the money and my time and have my Jb4 do the work rather that wait days for you to get back to me.

PS: Thanks for the negative rep on the German Boost forums for me quoting Terry.


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Default 02-16-2017, 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
Or you could just wait for MHD flex fuel, which automatically adjusts timing, AFR, fuel scalar, timing IAT correction factor, cranking enrichment, spool mode timing and AFR, and load target for ANY E% mix, in any direction. It gives an exact ethanol % reading. And I can add any other tables needed to be blended as well.
That's actually pretty fricken sweet! Seems like tuning is catching up to what a flash on Subaru with a flex fuel kit could do.


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Default 02-16-2017, 08:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
HUH? That is using the JB4 integration. So oh to the contrary kind sir. JB4 still has control of the injection however the controller auto scales that signal based on ethanol content so not only does the JB4 scale the trims based on ethanol content, the controller scales the port injection duty cycle based on actual ethanol content. It's a win/win!
Yes I know, just pointing we'll be covering all aspects of the market.

For the purposes of the thread to avoid confusion I'm just discussing the JB4 integration that uses our existing JB4 PI controller if they are port injected. There exists another controller that is primarily intended to be used flash only (but could also work with the JB4 in a flash only->JB4+BEF upgrade situation) but leave that to a future thread.


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Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-16-2017, 08:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharliesN54
Or we could just wait for it to be integrated into the JB4 for free instead of buying a VIN locked tune from you Jake. As someone who's bought a tune from you and two 900 kits I'd rather save the money and my time and have my Jb4 do the work rather that wait days for you to get back to me.

PS: Thanks for the negative rep on the German Boost forums for me quoting Terry.
First of all, you bought nothing from me. You bought them from Jake H. There are 2 Jakes at Motiv.

Second, it is flex fuel through MHD.

Third, you got neg repped into oblivion by multiple people.


Enjoying the new tables discovered and the XDF progress made? if you'd like. Every bit is appreciated!
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Default 02-16-2017, 08:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowon
That's actually pretty fricken sweet! Seems like tuning is catching up to what a flash on Subaru with a flex fuel kit could do.
The possibilities are endless. I can add a new table to be blended in about 30 minutes now. The functionality will blow past the Subaru implementation.


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Default 02-16-2017, 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymil
Another question will this work the other way like from a pump gas flash to straight e85 or does it have to go from a e85 flash and adjust down for straight pump gas ?
There are a lot of different subjects being discussed here, but the central theme is better integrating the tuning whether you're running a virtual flex fuel sensor OR a physical flow sensor. For our stuff the idea is to have one BEF file loaded and have the JB4 adjust the tuning as a function of ethanol. Of course it already does this to a large degree with the autotuning map, within a more narrow range. We'll be expanding that.

For the moment though my development focus is on the virtual flex fuel sensor which will be an integral part to the entire process. Even if you've taken the time and expense to install a physical flex fuel sensor in place you'll want the virtual flex fuel sensor running in the background as a safety...



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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-16-2017, 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Same controller. Fuel IT is also working on a new option for those foolish enough not to run a JB4.
Not use a JB4!!!?



Cool development.

Will BMS flashes be able to perform the similar magic to the MHD flex fuel adjustment?

I'll always be keeping my JB4 for the meth control and easy boost adjustment.
Would be nice if England would bring back the dam E85!


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