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MasterYous MasterYous is offline
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Default B58 Meth log review - 09-04-2018, 07:38 AM

My issue with the complete closures and throwing codes was caused by low voltage of the EWG connector, likely due to a bad EWG wire. I have to get that resolved.

Went back to factory EWG harness, set meth additive to 40, FOL to 60, FF to 80 (based on advice here). Two decent logs attached.

Some runs are super-clean, some others feel jerky and then smooth out in the latter part of the run. All in all the situation is much improved. Boost is intense and sustainable with 40 additive... close to 20 psi.

I do think I need to understand the stutter in the lower part of the run. Is my car trying to tell me something, e.g. do I have an octane issue, or something else that needs more specific tuning?

It's a 12-gallon tank with 2.5 gallons of E85 and 93 pump for the rest. BMS WMI at 50/50 concentrate with dual CM7s and additive 40. FF wires attached, EWG wires not (see above).

Thanks.
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File Type: csv 180904_0926.csv (14.6 KB, 75 views)
File Type: csv 180904_0932.csv (19.8 KB, 80 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-04-2018, 09:08 AM

Log looks okay, I think I see the stuttering you're talking about. It looks like turbo builds then stops builds then stops?
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Default 09-04-2018, 09:21 AM

Yes, that seems about right - the boost drops a bit, it's not super-jerky but you can feel it... it then builds back up and holds.

I also noticed as temperature rises it seems to get slightly better? Like the end part of the run is better than the early. I don't want to throw you off with that observation, so if you see something in the logs that can be addressed, please tell me.

At Additive 30 this does not seem to happen. So I kind of ruled out "too much fluid" unless you tell me you spray less meth at additive 30?


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-06-2018, 08:44 AM

I think I **might** (emphasis on might) have figured this out. My boost safety was set to 20.0 because it gave me better scaling on the dash, and I thought there was no way in heck my car could hit 20 psi on the factory turbo (wrong I was, yes!). So far, as long as the car is sufficiently warm, there appears to be little to no hesitation at WOT. Need a little more testing and some real logs to really conclude, so I will keep you posted.

Eventually I will fix the EWG wire situation which I assume will help with boost+WMI with the proper settings, right?


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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JBoe JBoe is offline
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Default 09-06-2018, 09:25 PM

I believe most set boost safety at 26 for default setting. From some of the logs I've seen, additive of 50 should be attainable with your setup. It looks like you're starting at 6.3psi (Min Flow Boost PSI). I think that's a bit low... most settings I've seen are 9-11 psi. That may be causing you some hesitation down low. Payam can confirm/advise more on that. Can you post a log with your new/latest settings?

Last edited by JBoe; 09-06-2018 at 09:39 PM..
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Default 09-07-2018, 07:52 AM

Thanks JBoe for taking the time to respond. Unfortunately for me, the hesitation is back and as annoying as ever.

I have a good log to share, with one very nice long run and a couple of slightly shorter ones. Almost all will show hesitation in the lower part of the run.

It seems related to temperature or something else that changes with time as the hesitation problem seems to get better the longer I drive (later runs). It's worse of course after car has not been driven for a few hours.

In terms of settings:
I did set boost safety up to 25.0 (aligns with needle gauges better than 26.0), and my meth settings CURRENTLY are:
- Additive 40
- Min boost PSI - 8.9 (is this too low? - the JB4 always rounds 9 down to 8.9)
- Min RPM - 2000
- Max RPM - 7000
- Scaling - 60

My nozzles are dual CM7s and my mix is 50/50.

FOL is 60 - I do have the FF wire. Raising or lowering FOL does not seem to help much. FF is auto-learning but I had set it to 50 and it's moving as it should.

I don't think I left out anything else relevant but let me know if so.

I think I agree there is more headroom. Really looking forward to any help. The power is there, and it's great - now if I can just get this stuttering fixed it will be fantastic...
Attached Files
File Type: csv 180907_0907_40ADD_FOL60_HESITATION.csv (31.2 KB, 74 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-07-2018, 06:39 PM

Okay... I'm no expert, but it looks like you've got to much fuel considering my knowledge at +4psi (40 additive). You have FOL set to 60. At +4psi, without meth injection, the stock dme can handle fuel just fine. Try setting FOL down to 30 and reset FF to 50. See if that helps. Post another log or two.

Please try to do a pull showing 3rd and shifting into 4th near redline. Continue in 4th for as long as possible. If the car is acting badly, obviously stop and get the log posted asap. Doing a longer pull gives us a much better view of things and how the DME is reacting. Remember, WMI is a fuel additive. Thus, we need to find a balance between gas and methanol mix to get proper fuel ratio/mixture that the car likes to see and appears to remain within the DME's control.

I'm a novice on the JB4, but have been tuning cars with similar units for many years. It shouldn't hurt to test what I'm saying, but you may want to wait for Payam or Terry to confirm. To me... it's simply to much fuel. I run map 2 (+4psi) with no meth at FOL 20. Going higher gave me a lot of hesitation, much like what you're experiencing.
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Default 09-07-2018, 09:50 PM

Thanks again. FYI, I also ran map 2 on stock everything with no issues. I’m making much more power with meth on Map 7 than I ever did on Map 2 and additive at 40 is driving my boost way past +4. I hit 19 easily and 20 at times.

Are you saying too much fuel can cause these throttle closures? It’s possible... so I will try to tweak FOL down. Note: I also have 2.5 gallons of ethanol per 13 gallon fill up. That’s another area that could in theory be tweaked down.

Conversely I wonder if adding boost (raising additive) increases fuel demand therefore might work better with my higher octane? I know there is a fuel cap so one must tread carefully.

I will try your advice first with FOL and logging. Pull in 3rd to red and then shift to 4th has the car close to 115 mph so you can see why my logs aren’t always doing that.


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-07-2018, 11:15 PM

Be safe and hope things get worked out for you. The B58 is a fickled car to tune.
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Default 09-08-2018, 05:45 PM

Well, FOL 30 made no difference. Same problem. I am sure about that, even without a log because the issue happens as soon as I go WOT. I do realize longer logs are needed to see what is happening.

My next attempt will be to remove the ethanol from the tank mix and see what happens. Maybe meth injection alone is enough for where I want to get.

One thing no one seems to be able to answer is why is it that with lower additive (30) there is no throttle closure. Is it because:
- lower additive means less boost being targeted and the issue is related to high boost levels ...
- lower additive means less spray from the nozzles so less fuel (or water)

If it’s the first reason then I should be able to reproduce this on Map 3 with no methanol. If it’s the second issue then a different ratio or smaller nozzles.

I just need a theory or something logical to try. I wish Terry would chime in.


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-08-2018, 09:35 PM

Can you post the log from FOL 30? Also try raising "Min Flow Boost" to 11psi. With those settings... let's see a log again. Then we can look at the scaling.

If you can run map 3, with meth off, and have no issues... it's got to be the meth. I can assist a bit if you post up logs. Also, try reaching out to Bullit1841. He's pretty good with meth side of things and may be willing to help.

It can be dialed in, but does take some adjustment. Don't get discouraged or frustrated. Just be patient and you'll be dialed in soon. I'm sure Payam or Terry will assist when they can, but they do get busy.
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Default 09-10-2018, 08:00 AM

I’ll get some logs with FOL 30, sure. It’s been raining so as soon as we get some drier asphalt. Thanks.


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-18-2018, 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBoe
Can you post the log from FOL 30? Also try raising "Min Flow Boost" to 11psi. With those settings... let's see a log again. Then we can look at the scaling.

If you can run map 3, with meth off, and have no issues... it's got to be the meth. I can assist a bit if you post up logs. Also, try reaching out to Bullit1841. He's pretty good with meth side of things and may be willing to help.

It can be dialed in, but does take some adjustment. Don't get discouraged or frustrated. Just be patient and you'll be dialed in soon. I'm sure Payam or Terry will assist when they can, but they do get busy.
JBoe, I think I owe you a big thank you. Your idea about too much fuel inspired me to think through what was happening. At low IAT/denser air, you typically need more "fuel" IF you're trying to make more boost, so it was counter-intuitive at first that I had too much fuel. But in looking at the logs I posted again, I noticed the relatively low DME boost targets. Then I started thinking about fuel vs. octane, which aren't the same thing. I certainly had the octane, but ethanol doesn't provide as much energy at the same volumes - that old lesson about lean AFRs making the problem worse with ethanol on this platform. Yet as IAT went up, AFR got more balanced as DME BT went up and and I think the car was handling the lower fuel density better (and needing the octane more). Lesson learned - I was only looking at the JB4 boost target and thinking higher BT means "give me more octane", but the DME BT is critical here since it probably has a bearing on DME-calculated AFR.

Long story short, I decided to trade off the octane for fuel and keep the FOL low (30), so I expended the old tank and then just filled up with 93 and no ethanol, and presto, the hesitation is gone.

I think I'm going to leave it alone and wait for a BEF before experimenting with more E85 or more than a 50/50 mix, when more variables can be adjusted to our liking.

I may just raise additive and see what happens to see where the meth ceiling is on an M240. Right now I can routinely exceed 19 psi but we'll see how much more can be squeezed.

I know logs are needed with current stable situation before changing more things, and since the weather is finally clearing up that will come soon.


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-18-2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
JBoe, I think I owe you a big thank you. Your idea about too much fuel inspired me to think through what was happening. At low IAT/denser air, you typically need more "fuel" IF you're trying to make more boost, so it was counter-intuitive at first that I had too much fuel. But in looking at the logs I posted again, I noticed the relatively low DME boost targets. Then I started thinking about fuel vs. octane, which aren't the same thing. I certainly had the octane, but ethanol doesn't provide as much energy at the same volumes - that old lesson about lean AFRs making the problem worse with ethanol on this platform. Yet as IAT went up, AFR got more balanced as DME BT went up and and I think the car was handling the lower fuel density better (and needing the octane more). Lesson learned - I was only looking at the JB4 boost target and thinking higher BT means "give me more octane", but the DME BT is critical here since it probably has a bearing on DME-calculated AFR.

Long story short, I decided to trade off the octane for fuel and keep the FOL low (30), so I expended the old tank and then just filled up with 93 and no ethanol, and presto, the hesitation is gone.

I think I'm going to leave it alone and wait for a BEF before experimenting with more E85 or more than a 50/50 mix, when more variables can be adjusted to our liking.

I may just raise additive and see what happens to see where the meth ceiling is on an M240. Right now I can routinely exceed 19 psi but we'll see how much more can be squeezed.

I know logs are needed with current stable situation before changing more things, and since the weather is finally clearing up that will come soon.
Glad you worked it out and are happy. Post up some logs for everyone to see/review. There's a lot of knowledge to be gained from such situations. I used such log reviews to develop a solid starting point for myself. Others tend to do the same.
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Default 09-19-2018, 09:07 AM

Good stuff guys, I'm glad you helped him figure that issue. The B58 is definitely finicky, each car has it's own specific things it likes.


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Default 09-19-2018, 12:24 PM

Logs from today

Additive 40
Min RPM boost 10.9
Min RPM 2000
Max RPM 7000

FOL 30
FF is down to 2 (!)

Car feels good, I don't feel hesitations, and the power is scary. Cracked 20 psi several times...

Runs aren't as long as we all would prefer (mostly all in 3rd) but a small time after shifts to 4th can be seen. Please have a look...

EDIT: the logs appear to show throttle closures but what’s interesting is the power remains smooth and sustained (no hesitation or drop in boost). The car does not seem to be trying to tell me anything , so not sure what it means. I also see ign1 values of 0 (?!) which is a first for me.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 180919_1428_WMI_FIX1.csv (16.6 KB, 53 views)
File Type: csv 180919_1501_WMI_FIX2.csv (10.2 KB, 56 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane

Last edited by MasterYous; 09-19-2018 at 01:07 PM.. Reason: More info
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Default 09-19-2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
Logs from today

Additive 40
Min RPM boost 10.9
Min RPM 2000
Max RPM 7000

FOL 30
FF is down to 2 (!)

Car feels good, I don't feel hesitations, and the power is scary. Cracked 20 psi several times...

Runs aren't as long as we all would prefer (mostly all in 3rd) but a small time after shifts to 4th can be seen. Please have a look...

EDIT: the logs appear to show throttle closures but what’s interesting is the power remains smooth and sustained (no hesitation or drop in boost). The car does not seem to be trying to tell me anything , so not sure what it means. I also see ign1 values of 0 (?!) which is a first for me.
Don't just focus on boost... we have to get you timing and boost for real power. Right now, you are overboosting in the lower rpms and borderline in others. Thus, you're seeing some closures to control the boost. Timing pulls as well during those conditions.

1) Do you have the EWG connected or are you back to stock waste gate control? I haven't seen a need for it on the stock turbo and exhaust vehicle.
2) Additive mapping starts when trigger conditions are met. You may be asking for meth to early, which is making it hard for DME to catch up to target. Try putting boost trigger to 13psi and rpm trigger to 3000rpm.

If we can clean up the boost levels and get timing back in, you'll really awaken the beast. lol.
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Default 09-19-2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBoe
Don't just focus on boost... we have to get you timing and boost for real power. Right now, you are overboosting in the lower rpms and borderline in others. Thus, you're seeing some closures to control the boost. Timing pulls as well during those conditions.

1) Do you have the EWG connected or are you back to stock waste gate control? I haven't seen a need for it on the stock turbo and exhaust vehicle.
2) Additive mapping starts when trigger conditions are met. You may be asking for meth to early, which is making it hard for DME to catch up to target. Try putting boost trigger to 13psi and rpm trigger to 3000rpm.

If we can clean up the boost levels and get timing back in, you'll really awaken the beast. lol.
1) stock EWG, which might be why Iím over boosting. When EWG was working, it helped control that, but not much else benefit.
2) yah, I saw your settings in another thread. Iíve been playing with it as well. Iíll post logs tomorrow with the changes you suggested.

I will say this - the power gain is real. Seriously - the car is scary fast. I just want to be safe from knock, etc. If youíre telling me that getting the timing back on track will add even more, Iím nervous. . Lol.


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Default 09-19-2018, 07:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
1) stock EWG, which might be why Iím over boosting. When EWG was working, it helped control that, but not much else benefit.
2) yah, I saw your settings in another thread. Iíve been playing with it as well. Iíll post logs tomorrow with the changes you suggested.

I will say this - the power gain is real. Seriously - the car is scary fast. I just want to be safe from knock, etc. If youíre telling me that getting the timing back on track will add even more, Iím nervous. . Lol.
I couldn't agree more... the power is/was surprisingly high. I've seen the same overboost issue while FF was adjusting. Then it came back in once it settled. Issue is, your FF is down to nothing. You may need the EWG back in place. Since you're a manual, gearing/load characteristics are different. Thus, your car will respond differently. It's getting close though...
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Default 09-20-2018, 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBoe
I couldn't agree more... the power is/was surprisingly high. I've seen the same overboost issue while FF was adjusting. Then it came back in once it settled. Issue is, your FF is down to nothing. You may need the EWG back in place. Since you're a manual, gearing/load characteristics are different. Thus, your car will respond differently. It's getting close though...
Here are some runs with min flow boost at 13 and min RPM set to 3000. Still some closures, although as per last time, the car feels fine. I was thinking of resetting FF to 50 manually to see where it goes from there, and possibly adjusting the FOL again. I need to find some time to repair the EWG wire, too.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 180920_1007.csv (35.5 KB, 59 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-20-2018, 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYous
Here are some runs with min flow boost at 13 and min RPM set to 3000. Still some closures, although as per last time, the car feels fine. I was thinking of resetting FF to 50 manually to see where it goes from there, and possibly adjusting the FOL again. I need to find some time to repair the EWG wire, too.
Resetting FF to 50 may give you some issues during the first few pulls. Then it will learn back down again. It looks like you need to get the EWG harness working again. Without the boost control, you're over boosting and getting the closures. Once you get the boost spikes under control you'll have a safer and more stable tune. You may not be feeling the issues in the pull, but they are there none the less. Get the EWG back on/working and tune out the spikes. From there... you'll be set and FF should come back into a more available range to keep control when conditions very.
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Default 09-22-2018, 10:59 PM

one you get EWG add 10 negative offset to FUA then add it back with FF where you need it

that will allow JB4 to reduce WGDC when over boost, if you have no FF then it cannot reduce it just over boosts, I had this issue before
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Default 09-24-2018, 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBoe
I couldn't agree more... the power is/was surprisingly high. I've seen the same overboost issue while FF was adjusting. Then it came back in once it settled. Issue is, your FF is down to nothing. You may need the EWG back in place. Since you're a manual, gearing/load characteristics are different. Thus, your car will respond differently. It's getting close though...
Log from Saturday attached. This is with EWG back in and FF manually restarted at 50. Closures present, but overboost **appears** better. Boost tracks target more closely. Timing seems to look better than last log, but still not perfect. This with FOL 60 and no FUA. FF is still dropping, although not as fast - looks like it's at 46 after like 5 or 6 runs now.

I'll later add some logs with some FUA (10) but I was trying to avoid using it if it's not needed to control overboost. Opinions?
Attached Files
File Type: csv 180922_1406_EWG.csv (41.7 KB, 62 views)


2017 F23/M240i Convertible (B58) / 6MT / FF Wires / EWG Wires / BMS Air Intake / Stock Exhaust / BMS Meth (100%) / 93 Octane
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Default 09-24-2018, 04:33 PM

That's a lot of quick pulls in one log. I do see boost coming into better control. Try to get a log with one nice long pull. Start in 3rd... redline... 4th... redline or as close as you can to it. Provide that and we can get a better overall view. It's much better towards the end of the last log from what I've seen in your past.
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Default 09-25-2018, 12:09 PM

Yeah, my logs need to be longer. I'll get that up soon. Thanks boss.


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