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Cooshman Cooshman is offline
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Default 02-04-2020, 08:55 AM

Terry.... would like to see if you could have a look. Was a full 2nd gear to mid 3rd gear pull. IATs were in the mid 80's, Map 2 on 93 octane.

To me everything looks pretty good. Trims were looking a bit high at beginning of 3rd gear but went down after.

Appreciate any insight. Also, I removed the normal cruising logs before the 2nd gear pull to keep down on noise.
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File Type: csv 2020-02-03 09_29_37_Map-2.csv (19.7 KB, 70 views)
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Default 02-04-2020, 02:07 PM

Log is looking great!
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biggeley biggeley is offline
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Default ECU_PSI/Target/Boost relationship - 02-04-2020, 02:16 PM

So generally I observe that ecu_psi + target = boost, which seems to be the case for map 1 and map 2.

However when playing around with map6 and trying additional boost beyond map 2 I've noticed that at upper RPM's (5500+ on a veloster N) that the value for boost stays "fixed" and that increasing target only serves to lower ecu_psi by a proportional amount.

I was wondering what causes that.. Is it a symptom of the turbo being maxed out on the top end, or is there potentially something else going on? The data logs look good IMO -- no knock or any other wierd things going on in the data logs. Boost values do see to be inline with what other Ns are reporting on the top end.
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Cooshman Cooshman is offline
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Default 02-04-2020, 03:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Payam @ BMS
Log is looking great!

Thanks...will be looking at a longer 3rd gear and maybe 4th gear as well. We are getting cooler weather again soon, so would like to see how it performs.
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Default 02-04-2020, 03:33 PM

The ECU has WGDC upper limits and won't increase beyond that, usually due to turbo sizing. In some applications we add wastegate connections to the JB4 to "force" boost higher. We're experimenting with that on the Stinger 3.3L now. If all goes well expect a similar option for the Kia 4 banger options.


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(#2981)
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biggeley biggeley is offline
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Angry 02-04-2020, 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
The ECU has WGDC upper limits and won't increase beyond that, usually due to turbo sizing. In some applications we add wastegate connections to the JB4 to "force" boost higher. We're experimenting with that on the Stinger 3.3L now. If all goes well expect a similar option for the Kia 4 banger options.
Interesting.. Ill keep an eye out for the EWG discussions then. I didn't realize it was related.
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P4RTYH4RTY P4RTYH4RTY is offline
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Default 02-05-2020, 03:43 PM

Looks like the BMS Intercooler is for sale up on the site!

Is that the CPI kit I see in the picture?!
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snipe99999 snipe99999 is offline
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Default 02-05-2020, 06:20 PM

Thanks for the help in advance. I posted this on the stinger forum as well but wanted to get some BMS eyes on it.

My check engine light has been on for about a week and I am taking it to the dealer. Well I took off the JB4 and the car is now announcing possible engine control system issues Kia recommends service. Before it was just the check engine light no announcement. Any idea it would do that after I removed the JB4? Is there a way to turn that off? Thanks
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bales810 bales810 is offline
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Default 02-05-2020, 06:40 PM

Hey just got my JB4 and fuel wire installed on 2.0T. Attached log I ran on map1 for the experts to go over . Thanks for any feedback! Stinger feels wayyyy quicker.
Attached Files
File Type: csv JB4 Mobile Logs (5LA2K6047223).csv (16.5 KB, 77 views)
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(#2985)
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Default 02-07-2020, 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by snipe99999
Thanks for the help in advance. I posted this on the stinger forum as well but wanted to get some BMS eyes on it.

My check engine light has been on for about a week and I am taking it to the dealer. Well I took off the JB4 and the car is now announcing possible engine control system issues Kia recommends service. Before it was just the check engine light no announcement. Any idea it would do that after I removed the JB4? Is there a way to turn that off? Thanks
There is not.

The JB4 could have pulled your codes before you removed it.


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Soccerstyle Soccerstyle is offline
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Default 02-07-2020, 09:04 AM

Terry, here is a log with EWG wires, bias set at 70.
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File Type: csv 2020-02-04 22_21_53_Map-8 bias 70.csv (9.6 KB, 85 views)
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(#2987)
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Default 02-07-2020, 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccerstyle
Terry, here is a log with EWG wires, bias set at 70.
Put those EWG logs in the EWG thread or email them in.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Soccerstyle Soccerstyle is offline
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Default 02-07-2020, 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Put those EWG logs in the EWG thread or email them in.
my bad, I put in EWG thread also.
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alzard alzard is offline
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Default pure hyrid turbo!! - 02-12-2020, 09:38 AM

pure turbo upgrade.

it is only use wmi system ?

How many psi can i use if ... do not use wmi system ?
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Default 02-12-2020, 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alzard
pure turbo upgrade.

it is only use wmi system ?

How many psi can i use if ... do not use wmi system ?
Depends on the fuel used. If you use an ethanol blend you'll run out of fuel quick. If you use Ms109, you should be okay without methanol.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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(#2991)
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PhantomV PhantomV is offline
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Default 02-14-2020, 08:24 AM

Hey everyone. Sorry, I'm new with understanding the JB4, and was hoping to get answers to a few questions.

First off, I understand the JB4 can adjust boost and fueling, but can it independently add or remove ignition timing without being a byproduct of changing those other parameters? I noticed that there is no crank sensor wire like other piggy back tuners offer, so curious how you can ramp up ignition timing separately?

My second question is that I don't see anyone logging knock sensor feedback from the ecu like I was able to do with my former OBD tuning method on my old car. Can the JB4 detect and log knock retard values, or you guys just assume there is knock if ignition timing is being pulled? I would think knock data would be huge in assessing if the tune is running safely.

Thanks in advance!
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RUFFSTUFF RUFFSTUFF is offline
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Default 02-14-2020, 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomV
Hey everyone. Sorry, I'm new with understanding the JB4, and was hoping to get answers to a few questions.

First off, I understand the JB4 can adjust boost and fueling, but can it independently add or remove ignition timing without being a byproduct of changing those other parameters? I noticed that there is no crank sensor wire like other piggy back tuners offer, so curious how you can ramp up ignition timing separately?

My second question is that I don't see anyone logging knock sensor feedback from the ecu like I was able to do with my former OBD tuning method on my old car. Can the JB4 detect and log knock retard values, or you guys just assume there is knock if ignition timing is being pulled? I would think knock data would be huge in assessing if the tune is running safely.

Thanks in advance!
This may help:

https://burgertuning.com/pages/faq
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PhantomV PhantomV is offline
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Default 02-14-2020, 12:45 PM

Thanks for your reply!

Do you know if there is any OBD CAN tool that can log knock available for the North American Hyundai Veloster N ECU? I have a tactrix 2.0 OBD tool and ELM327 blue tooth adapter, but not sure what software can be used to access the ECU and monitor values such as knock.

So the ignition timing values that are available for each cylinder... Are these values accurate to what the ecu applies or is it just a predicted value or target?
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Default 02-14-2020, 01:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomV
Hey everyone. Sorry, I'm new with understanding the JB4, and was hoping to get answers to a few questions.

First off, I understand the JB4 can adjust boost and fueling, but can it independently add or remove ignition timing without being a byproduct of changing those other parameters? I noticed that there is no crank sensor wire like other piggy back tuners offer, so curious how you can ramp up ignition timing separately?
Just to clarify CPS offsetting doesn't directly adjust ignition timing which is one of the reasons we choose not to include that harness on the Kia JB4. But the main issue with CPS is that by altering the TDC signal you also throw off fuel injection timing and anything else relying on TDC. Since the ignition timing system is adaptive any changes made via CPS are quickly learned out. In our testing we found the IAT spoofing we use on the JB4 end to be more effective at adding timing over stock than CPS with fewer side effects. In most cases though the factory timing tables are very close to MBT, even when using E85, so there isn't much benefit to be had forcing advance higher.

Quote:
My second question is that I don't see anyone logging knock sensor feedback from the ecu like I was able to do with my former OBD tuning method on my old car. Can the JB4 detect and log knock retard values, or you guys just assume there is knock if ignition timing is being pulled? I would think knock data would be huge in assessing if the tune is running safely.
Actual ignition advance in each cylinder is displayed in the log and timing corrections show as 3.5 degree timing drops in specific cylinders.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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atr1 atr1 is offline
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Default 02-14-2020, 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Just to clarify CPS offsetting doesn't directly adjust ignition timing which is one of the reasons we choose not to include that harness on the Kia JB4. But the main issue with CPS is that by altering the TDC signal you also throw off fuel injection timing and anything else relying on TDC. Since the ignition timing system is adaptive any changes made via CPS are quickly learned out. In our testing we found the IAT spoofing we use on the JB4 end to be more effective at adding timing over stock than CPS with fewer side effects. In most cases though the factory timing tables are very close to MBT, even when using E85, so there isn't much benefit to be had forcing advance higher.



Actual ignition advance in each cylinder is displayed in the log and timing corrections show as 3.5 degree timing drops in specific cylinders.
Will there still be a place for IAT spoofing when the EWG wires will be released? or is it redundant?
I thought IAT spoofing was to raise boost so it would not be needed with EWG wires but if it does add some timing it can be useful on its own.
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Default 02-14-2020, 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by atr1
Will there still be a place for IAT spoofing when the EWG wires will be released? or is it redundant?
I thought IAT spoofing was to raise boost so it would not be needed with EWG wires but if it does add some timing it can be useful on its own.
IAT spoofing is separate from EWG control and still very useful in situations where we want to lock in a positive or negative advance bias.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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atr1 atr1 is offline
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Default 02-14-2020, 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
IAT spoofing is separate from EWG control and still very useful in situations where we want to lock in a positive or negative advance bias.
Cool!
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PhantomV PhantomV is offline
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Default 02-15-2020, 02:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Just to clarify CPS offsetting doesn't directly adjust ignition timing which is one of the reasons we choose not to include that harness on the Kia JB4. But the main issue with CPS is that by altering the TDC signal you also throw off fuel injection timing and anything else relying on TDC. Since the ignition timing system is adaptive any changes made via CPS are quickly learned out. In our testing we found the IAT spoofing we use on the JB4 end to be more effective at adding timing over stock than CPS with fewer side effects. In most cases though the factory timing tables are very close to MBT, even when using E85, so there isn't much benefit to be had forcing advance higher.
Thanks, wasn't aware of the compensation issue. The KDM tuners (e.g. Lap3) found a way to adjust ignition timing permanently with the CPS and other sensors on their piggyback. I'm not sure about all the details, but I remember them saying they also integrated data from canbus and speed wires to do this. They actually figured out how to add timing with rpm, load, and boost pressure tables. Seemed like adjusting boost and afr is fairly easy and mostly universal between car makes through e.g. MAP and boost wires, but ignition timing takes a lot of R&D.

Already near MBT? Have you guys already dyno tested the effect of adding more ignition timing to the Veloster N throughout the usable rpm band ? You mentioned you have the IAT method, but not sure how versatile that is. Flash tuners are having trouble with the North American ecu based on ecu security and a lack of map definitions available. I don't recall any of them being able to do much more than boost and AFR. Hoping someone has tried this.
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Default 02-15-2020, 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomV
The KDM tuners (e.g. Lap3) found a way to adjust ignition timing permanently with the CPS and other sensors on their piggyback. I'm not sure about all the details, but I remember them saying they also integrated data from canbus and speed wires to do this. They actually figured out how to add timing with rpm, load, and boost pressure tables.
They tell their customers that to try to justify double the price of a JB4 despite only offering a fraction of the JB4's functionality but their CPS implementation is just marketing baloney. You'll find JB4 cars running similar track times and making similar power without the risks they've introduced by adjusting the TDC reference point. And you'll see effective timing between both systems similar across all cylinders. The JB4 hardware itself supports CPS and we've offered it on other platforms before but given the trade offs it just doesn't work well. In addition on the Stinger it's not practical for customers to get under the car and remove parts of their exhaust to access the CPS sensor every time they want to install or remove the tuning system.

Quote:
Already near MBT? Have you guys already dyno tested the effect of adding more ignition timing to the Veloster N throughout the usable rpm band ? You mentioned you have the IAT method, but not sure how versatile that is. Flash tuners are having trouble with the North American ecu based on ecu security and a lack of map definitions available. I don't recall any of them being able to do much more than boost and AFR. Hoping someone has tried this.
Referring to the 3.3L Stinger. Most of our R&D is on the 3.3L. We've tuned quite a few 2L Veloster Ns remotely but have not spent much time with them on the dyno in house. You'd need to use the logging tools provided by the JB4 to evaluate if you're looking to run beyond map1 or map2.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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atr1 atr1 is offline
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Default 02-15-2020, 07:32 PM

Lap3 can't add timing. It can maybe fool the TDC value but its no accurate way of doing it. I wouldn't rely on such gimmick for timings. A proper back end tune is probably the way to go.
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