N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion
(#1)
Old
Levan-i's Avatar
Levan-i Levan-i is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 642
Join Date: Sep 2014
Car: 2007 BMW 335i E92
Default Feature Request: Flashing thru JB4 - 03-09-2016, 12:33 AM

Hey,

As time goes by, everyone understands that BEF is cool thing,
so the options are either BB or the MHD,

Why not make it possible to flash thru JB4 interface?
Then it would be single point for all this stuff, easy and fast, and no need for other cables nor devices

Terry, what do you think about it?

P.S. I still think that having all JB4 parameters also in interface and ability to change them would be very cool,
I all the time see confusion from new users who dont understand what they have in dash, and they are not sure what to do. all this leads to discomfort, and its no good on this competition level


2007 E92 335
ST - GTW3684
JB4 G5, ST Pump Flash, Fuel-It Stage 1, Meth
MT (after swap),
MFactory LSD
Reply With Quote
(#2)
Old
jyamona jyamona is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 564
Join Date: Aug 2013
Car: 2010 135i 6MT
Default 03-09-2016, 07:23 AM

lol.


Enjoying the new tables discovered and the XDF progress made? if you'd like. Every bit is appreciated!
Reply With Quote
(#3)
Old
Taron's Avatar
Taron Taron is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 584
Join Date: Jan 2013
Car: 2008 BMW 335XI
Default 03-09-2016, 07:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levan-i
Hey,

As time goes by, everyone understands that BEF is cool thing,
so the options are either BB or the MHD,

Why not make it possible to flash thru JB4 interface?
Then it would be single point for all this stuff, easy and fast, and no need for other cables nor devices

Terry, what do you think about it?
Current version of jb4 will not be able to work through supporting protocols to flash dme, its only able only to alter the signal to weirs its connected. The CAN is complex protocol)


2008 335XI(E92) AT/ garrett gtx3582r with jpworks manifold 1.06AR housing/ tial mv-s 38mm wgs(13.5 psi springs)/ tial bov/ fuel it level1 upgrade/ index 12 injectors/ N20 Map sensor/JB4 ST TS BEF with MHD/ Alpina Flash for now.
Reply With Quote
(#4)
Old
Levan-i's Avatar
Levan-i Levan-i is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 642
Join Date: Sep 2014
Car: 2007 BMW 335i E92
Default 03-09-2016, 07:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
lol.
?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron
Current version of jb4 will not be able to work through supporting protocols to flash dme, its only able only to alter the signal to weirs its connected. The CAN is complex protocol)
Well, as it already has control over CAN, maybe with changing some part of it (as it was on antilag) it would be possible to flash DME

if not,

there always is option for JB4 G6 or something like that,
it would also boost sales

Jakes "lol" makes me think that there is something going on that we dont know


2007 E92 335
ST - GTW3684
JB4 G5, ST Pump Flash, Fuel-It Stage 1, Meth
MT (after swap),
MFactory LSD
Reply With Quote
(#5)
Old
Terry @ BMS's Avatar
Terry @ BMS Terry @ BMS is online now
Tuner
 
Posts: 32,609
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default 03-09-2016, 07:13 PM

I've considered it. The JB4 is a high-speed CANbus device and it's on the PTCAN behind the BCM gateway, which means it could flash more quickly than via the OBDII port. I helped write the BB software so I'm pretty familiar with it. But it's also a lot of work and we have a friendly working relationship with MHD. I think the $79 you pay MHD for a JB4 flash license is very reasonable considering the ongoing support and XDF development they fund. And there is also the free BB software available for those who want to go that route. So as of right now it's not on our radar.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
Reply With Quote
(#6)
Old
ba114's Avatar
ba114 ba114 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 232
Join Date: Jul 2014
Car: 135i 6MT
Default 03-09-2016, 09:55 PM

Question seems to get asked roughly every 12 months.

I remember Donnie mentioned something about one day looking at building it into the jb4 mobile app, which would have been great given that currently we pay/have paid for the JB4 & Data cable ($559)+ JB4 Mobile App ($28) + MHD ($79) + DCAN cable ($20) (or BT cable in the old days - $179) - $865 total.

For me in Australia, this equates to roughly $1250 + $200 in shipping. All the software and hardware purchases over the last couple of years have added up, but it's certainly less than upgraded turbos or most other hardware mods.

The price you pay for being an early adopter of each new option, and whilst part of me thinks it'd be great for the new people getting into the scene to have these features built into the JB4 platform to avoid having to spend the same, the other part of me says "well if i've had to do it, everyone else should too!" :P

It would be nice to have a release that actually saves the users from spending additional money for once, as opposed to new software release that require the additional purchase of something else. But given the "in-app purchase" mentally and profit models of companies these days, good luck.
Reply With Quote
(#7)
Old
Terry @ BMS's Avatar
Terry @ BMS Terry @ BMS is online now
Tuner
 
Posts: 32,609
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default 03-09-2016, 09:58 PM

Back when BMS started, our main competitor was selling a piggyback that did much much less than the JB4, for $1499. So while it might seem like a lot prices have really dropped. Remember when Cobb was $900 to run a back end flash map and now its anywhere from $free to $100 for MHD+adapter?


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
Reply With Quote
(#8)
Old
Levan-i's Avatar
Levan-i Levan-i is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 642
Join Date: Sep 2014
Car: 2007 BMW 335i E92
Default 03-10-2016, 01:56 AM

Well ok,
of course its up to you,

but,

What i see, is that
1) Market is growing, as prices on n54 cars are dropping,
2) JB4 sales trend probably is still positive,

3) BUT, market share of JB4 is actually dropping as there is cheaper boost rising alternative i.e. MHD with OTS flashes. (yes, without lots of functionality of JB4) and I see more and more people selling JB4 and running flash only

4) and Functionality of MHD is also growing


So yes, at this stage BMS and MHD are working closely but at some moment it will be over


Besides diversification of business and adding other platforms which as i see, you are pushing hard,

For more customer comfort - essential business driving line - would be nice to have BEF flashing feature thru JB4

otherwise, as MHD functionality will grow, like adding bluetooth, and when Martial will port the code to iOS as well, you will drop N54 market more, imho.


2007 E92 335
ST - GTW3684
JB4 G5, ST Pump Flash, Fuel-It Stage 1, Meth
MT (after swap),
MFactory LSD

Last edited by Levan-i; 03-10-2016 at 02:07 AM..
Reply With Quote
(#9)
Old
808AWD325xi's Avatar
808AWD325xi 808AWD325xi is offline
Ballin' out of control.
 
Posts: 51
Join Date: Jan 2008
Car: 2009 BMW 335i
Default 03-10-2016, 03:10 PM

It's a great suggestion.

Not everyone wants to flash their car with a laptop, hence the draw of an "app." However, not everyone is comfortable with using an Android device (meh) to flash their DME. Furthermore, not everyone wants locked maps...


Alpina B3 Flash/BMS OCC/ER CP/ETS 5/HKS BOV/M3 Control Arms/OFT
Reply With Quote
(#10)
Old
unrealii unrealii is offline
New Member
 
Posts: 25
Join Date: Nov 2012
Car: E93 335
Default 03-11-2016, 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levan-i
What i see, is that
1) Market is growing, as prices on n54 cars are dropping,
2) JB4 sales trend probably is still positive,

3) BUT, market share of JB4 is actually dropping as there is cheaper boost rising alternative i.e. MHD with OTS flashes. (yes, without lots of functionality of JB4) and I see more and more people selling JB4 and running flash only


4) and Functionality of MHD is also growing


So yes, at this stage BMS and MHD are working closely but at some moment it will be over


Besides diversification of business and adding other platforms which as i see, you are pushing hard,

For more customer comfort - essential business driving line - would be nice to have BEF flashing feature thru JB4

otherwise, as MHD functionality will grow, like adding bluetooth, and when Martial will port the code to iOS as well, you will drop N54 market more, imho.
From the bolded part...are sales up or down? These points seem counter intuitive...Sales are up which is good for BMS. Resells are up too, so is that good or bad? Market is getting bigger. Cars are hitting an age where many are moving on to a new platform. Additional influx of n54 buyers due to lower entry price, would mean larger market for new and used JB4 sales.

You want Terry to spend R&D to build something which is assumed that will be for free..and to take that and to complete against a very matured and polished MHD product? My friend, if you want free there is a tool for that - BB. If you want polished, then I dont see by adding this functionality that it would push the JB4 platform forward beyond its current capability set. That time be better spent adding features which lead to differentiation between JB4 (JB4 & JB4 Stacked) and Flash-Only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 808AWD325xi
It's a great suggestion.

Not everyone wants to flash their car with a laptop, hence the draw of an "app." However, not everyone is comfortable with using an Android device (meh) to flash their DME. Furthermore, not everyone wants locked maps...
Many of you take fore granted of what is really going on when you flash a device. Its not like hitting update in the app store. Its more like doing a brain transplant cell by cell. Locked maps is what make them cheap. $50 for a quality tune with ongoing updates?...take my money! Otherwise, there are some free tunes offered by forum members.


2009 335i E93 6MT ///M-Sport
MHD Stage 1 | ER Chargepipe | VRSF 5" Stepped FMIC | 335is Clutch | KW V3
Reply With Quote
(#11)
Old
suspenceful's Avatar
suspenceful suspenceful is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 810
Join Date: Mar 2014
Car: 2008 BSM 135i
Default 03-11-2016, 12:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii
From the bolded part...are sales up or down? These points seem counter intuitive...Sales are up which is good for BMS. Resells are up too, so is that good or bad? Market is getting bigger. Cars are hitting an age where many are moving on to a new platform. Additional influx of n54 buyers due to lower entry price, would mean larger market for new and used JB4 sales.
N54 vehicle prices are coming down, meaning there are more people comfortable spending money on the platform. BMS is losing more and more sales to MHD. This means their market share (percentage of people buying BMS instead of MHD, COBB, etc) is decreasing. Essentially, they're loosing ground to their competitors.

However, because more people are modding their N54s (cheaper vehicles, out of warranty, etc), BMS is still seeing an uptick in sales, even though their market share is dropping. Sales look better simply because there are more people buying, but it could be even better if they took back some of their market share.

...that's me just explaining what I think Levan-i meant.



🚀 My 750HP 135i build: my1series.com
🔧 My budget 335i build: bmw335i.com
📷 Follow me on Instagram: instagram.com/jakespence
🎬 Watch me on YouTube: youtube.com/jakespence135
🌟 Support me on Patreon: patreon.com/jake_spence
🏁 Shop BMW merchandise: bimmerstreet.com
Reply With Quote
(#12)
Old
unrealii unrealii is offline
New Member
 
Posts: 25
Join Date: Nov 2012
Car: E93 335
Default 03-11-2016, 12:25 PM

Totally makes sense, but how would adding a flash feature to JB4 raise market share? There's free which is BB flash or MHD which is under $200 to get up and go. Why would someone spend $500 on a jb4 just to flash their car? They won't. Those customers want the extra features that cannot be added via flash.


2009 335i E93 6MT ///M-Sport
MHD Stage 1 | ER Chargepipe | VRSF 5" Stepped FMIC | 335is Clutch | KW V3
Reply With Quote
(#13)
Old
Levan-i's Avatar
Levan-i Levan-i is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 642
Join Date: Sep 2014
Car: 2007 BMW 335i E92
Default 03-11-2016, 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by suspenceful
N54 vehicle prices are coming down, meaning there are more people comfortable spending money on the platform. BMS is losing more and more sales to MHD. This means their market share (percentage of people buying BMS instead of MHD, COBB, etc) is decreasing. Essentially, they're loosing ground to their competitors.

However, because more people are modding their N54s (cheaper vehicles, out of warranty, etc), BMS is still seeing an uptick in sales, even though their market share is dropping. Sales look better simply because there are more people buying, but it could be even better if they took back some of their market share.

...that's me just explaining what I think Levan-i meant.

^ this

thanks!


2007 E92 335
ST - GTW3684
JB4 G5, ST Pump Flash, Fuel-It Stage 1, Meth
MT (after swap),
MFactory LSD
Reply With Quote
(#14)
Old
suspenceful's Avatar
suspenceful suspenceful is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 810
Join Date: Mar 2014
Car: 2008 BSM 135i
Default 03-11-2016, 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii
Totally makes sense, but how would adding a flash feature to JB4 raise market share? There's free which is BB flash or MHD which is under $200 to get up and go. Why would someone spend $500 on a jb4 just to flash their car? They won't. Those customers want the extra features that cannot be added via flash.
To my knowledge, BB isn't really supported/updated anymore. BMS has acknowledged that their preferred flashing method is MHD (which might be under good relations, but is still considered a 'competitor' in my mind). BMS only comes out with JB4 MHD backend flashes now.


🚀 My 750HP 135i build: my1series.com
🔧 My budget 335i build: bmw335i.com
📷 Follow me on Instagram: instagram.com/jakespence
🎬 Watch me on YouTube: youtube.com/jakespence135
🌟 Support me on Patreon: patreon.com/jake_spence
🏁 Shop BMW merchandise: bimmerstreet.com
Reply With Quote
(#15)
Old
Levan-i's Avatar
Levan-i Levan-i is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 642
Join Date: Sep 2014
Car: 2007 BMW 335i E92
Default 03-11-2016, 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii
Totally makes sense, but how would adding a flash feature to JB4 raise market share? There's free which is BB flash or MHD which is under $200 to get up and go. Why would someone spend $500 on a jb4 just to flash their car? They won't. Those customers want the extra features that cannot be added via flash.
Lets go in more details,
Why are people preferring MHD(ots Flash) vs JB4?
1) Price - which is 3-4 folds difference
2) Easiness to *install*
3) Easiness to use
a)most of people do not even go in dash menu beyond 0 - which is boosts menu, because its complicated and not clear, again - for most people)
b) no need to route cable from hood
c) not all parameters in Interface, difficult to understand what is set, what is not
4) Smoother experience
5) Same boost levels

but, on the other hand, there are many very good features that JB4 has like 1) WG control
2) Maps switching
3) more safety
4) meth
etc

but, this features are are not used by most for market target auditory

so, what in my opinion BMS should do to slow down market loss?

1) Make it easier and more intuitive to use (at least, as i've mentioned in first post, make it possible to set everything from interface

2) Flashing thing through JB4 interface, again to make it easier, having single point for *tuning* instead of having JB4 on one hand and MHD or BB on other hand

3) personally if i was product manager, i would demand to add bluetooth connectivity in next version - JB4 G6 or JB5, i.e. cable would not be needed anyomre +s i would acquire Dmac-s product, for mobile devices interface

what it would give us?
1) It would make perfect product, which would have all great functionality that JB4 has,
2) It would be super easy to flash
3) And have the nice interface on mobile devices for setup/flashing/monitoring/logging without any additional cables and stuff

i.e. no need for 3rd party products


2007 E92 335
ST - GTW3684
JB4 G5, ST Pump Flash, Fuel-It Stage 1, Meth
MT (after swap),
MFactory LSD

Last edited by Levan-i; 03-11-2016 at 12:48 PM..
Reply With Quote
(#16)
Old
unrealii unrealii is offline
New Member
 
Posts: 25
Join Date: Nov 2012
Car: E93 335
Default 03-11-2016, 01:05 PM

The only way for this argument to stand up is if adding a flash capability will bring more customers to JB4.

Customer #1 spends $500 and buys a JB4. Whether it has flash capability or not, the customer wants the JB4 and the capabilities. JB4 has a sale.
Customer #1a decides to buy JB4 Flash module for MHD, spends an extra $79. JB4 has a sale, MHD has a sale.
Customer #2 spends $150 (+ $69 to get equivalent monitoring capabilities). If the JB4 had a flash in it, I dont see this customer jumping on the JB4 platform because of the large price differential.

If anything, the feature request of built in flashing will more likely prevent a sale to MHD while keeping JB4 sales on the same trajectory. On top of that, additional R&D of finite resources are to implement this feature with zero return. If MHD cost more than the JB4, then yes, there would be opportunity with building that feature in.


I definitely agree that the JB4 interface could use some update. That might be an opportunity for BMS. There is great support here if you have a JB4, so you are not left out in the cold.


2009 335i E93 6MT ///M-Sport
MHD Stage 1 | ER Chargepipe | VRSF 5" Stepped FMIC | 335is Clutch | KW V3
Reply With Quote
(#17)
Old
Levan-i's Avatar
Levan-i Levan-i is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 642
Join Date: Sep 2014
Car: 2007 BMW 335i E92
Default 03-11-2016, 01:16 PM

adding flashing capability would decrease churn, which = customer loyalty = bringing more customers


2007 E92 335
ST - GTW3684
JB4 G5, ST Pump Flash, Fuel-It Stage 1, Meth
MT (after swap),
MFactory LSD
Reply With Quote
(#18)
Old
bigdnno98's Avatar
bigdnno98 bigdnno98 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 424
Join Date: Nov 2011
Car: e92 335i
Default 03-11-2016, 01:30 PM

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levan-i
Lets go in more details,
Why are people preferring MHD(ots Flash) vs JB4?
1) Price - which is 3-4 folds difference
2) Easiness to *install*
3) Easiness to use
a)most of people do not even go in dash menu beyond 0 - which is boosts menu, because its complicated and not clear, again - for most people)
b) no need to route cable from hood
c) not all parameters in Interface, difficult to understand what is set, what is not
4) Smoother experience
5) Same boost levels

but, on the other hand, there are many very good features that JB4 has like 1) WG control
2) Maps switching
3) more safety
4) meth
etc

but, this features are are not used by most for market target auditory

so, what in my opinion BMS should do to slow down market loss?

1) Make it easier and more intuitive to use (at least, as i've mentioned in first post, make it possible to set everything from interface

2) Flashing thing through JB4 interface, again to make it easier, having single point for *tuning* instead of having JB4 on one hand and MHD or BB on other hand

3) personally if i was product manager, i would demand to add bluetooth connectivity in next version - JB4 G6 or JB5, i.e. cable would not be needed anyomre +s i would acquire Dmac-s product, for mobile devices interface

what it would give us?
1) It would make perfect product, which would have all great functionality that JB4 has,
2) It would be super easy to flash
3) And have the nice interface on mobile devices for setup/flashing/monitoring/logging without any additional cables and stuff

i.e. no need for 3rd party products


2011 335is DCT, FBO
Reply With Quote
(#19)
Old
justa335i's Avatar
justa335i justa335i is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 186
Join Date: Sep 2015
Car: 07 E92 335i
Default 03-11-2016, 02:25 PM

Excited to see Terrys input!


2007 E92 335i 6MT
New Jersey
N54-Tuning 3'' Downp!pes, Vrsf 5'' Intercooler, Vrsf Charge Pipe, Tial-Q BOV, Vrsf Lower Charge Pipe, Act HDSD Clutch, JB4 G5 ISO, BMS Intakes, Custom Axle Back w/ 3" Tips
Reply With Quote
(#20)
Old
mr.335i mr.335i is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 25
Join Date: Apr 2015
Car: E92 335i
Default 03-11-2016, 02:54 PM

If I could do all that from my JB4 Connect kit, that would be awesome. I also wouldn't mind paying an extra $50 for it either.
Reply With Quote
(#21)
Old
Terry @ BMS's Avatar
Terry @ BMS Terry @ BMS is online now
Tuner
 
Posts: 32,609
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default 03-11-2016, 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justa335i
Excited to see Terrys input!
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...09&postcount=5


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
Reply With Quote
(#22)
Old
Nitrousbird Nitrousbird is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 117
Join Date: Jun 2015
Car: '07 335i 6MT
Default 03-11-2016, 09:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by suspenceful
BMS only comes out with JB4 MHD backend flashes now.
That's not true. Go look at the backend flashes for BB and MHD. They are both updated.
Reply With Quote
(#23)
Old
Sirdaft1's Avatar
Sirdaft1 Sirdaft1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 117
Join Date: Jun 2014
Car: E90 335i
Default 03-12-2016, 03:36 AM

I think ultimately being able to control JB4 and BEF through the Connect Kit would massively simplify the overall total user experience. And with more and more new(er) 335 owners joining the game ease of use is the name of the game. I'm not sure about anyone else, but the recent barrage of "JB4 vs flash" threads have seemed to of gotten much worse. And I think a JB4 catch-all would be one fantastic solution going forward.

It could become JB4 (w/ BEF capabilities) for those desiring an easy to use customizable solution for most n5x owners, and Syvecs for the 1% on this platform looking for a fully customized, one off solution.
Reply With Quote
(#24)
Old
Lamar Vannoy Lamar Vannoy is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 33
Join Date: Feb 2016
Car: 135i N54
Default 03-14-2016, 08:19 PM

I really want to see this just for the speed difference. I flashed from an E85 backend to the 2/23 pump one on the 10th and it took 38.5 minutes only to find out that it was updated today, 3/14. They advantage of being able to roll into a station that has E85 and change the BEF while pumping would be huge!
Reply With Quote
(#25)
Old
unrealii unrealii is offline
New Member
 
Posts: 25
Join Date: Nov 2012
Car: E93 335
Default 03-14-2016, 10:29 PM

I don't know about BEF, but MHD and Cobb, its a few minutes to change maps. Plus I would never flash at a gas station. What if something happens, you car is d-e-a-d


2009 335i E93 6MT ///M-Sport
MHD Stage 1 | ER Chargepipe | VRSF 5" Stepped FMIC | 335is Clutch | KW V3
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright 2007 - 2020, N54tech.com