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Default E85 and tuning reference materials - 11-12-2013, 04:03 PM

Thought I'd start a thread to post reference materials in....feel free to add others or share experiences.

I like this fuel mix calculator...it's in the middle of the page.

Posted by: Fmonteiro444
Ethanol Calculator (1).zip
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Posted by: Rudypoochris
Effects of different fuels on Turbo DI engines article


Various reference tables....

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The two major assumptions with this chart so don't take it as gospel...

1. Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113. I've read different things but used this number in the calculations.

2. The octane rating of the gasoline mixed with ethanol is 87 and this is the figure I used as well.

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Edit: Continually adding references to first post to make things easier.



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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 11-20-2013 at 04:47 AM..
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Default 11-12-2013, 04:12 PM

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Default 11-12-2013, 04:20 PM

My contribution
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Guide to Measure Ethonal.pdf (88.6 KB, 299 views)
Attached Files
File Type: zip Ethanol Calculator.zip (16.4 KB, 842 views)


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Default 11-12-2013, 04:58 PM

This is awesome!!


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Default 11-12-2013, 05:11 PM

Scaler table for different percentages of ethanol.

Added to first post.



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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 11-12-2013 at 10:41 PM..
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Default 11-12-2013, 05:26 PM

I don't think the edge of misfire lean burn is right. I run 16:1 lambda equivalent with 50% E85 and 50% gas mix with no problems. Same with idle.


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Default 11-12-2013, 05:27 PM

This is the best paper I have found on E85 tuning as it pertains to us. I used this for a lot of guidance.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...sdjMAM_SGyjRLQ


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Default 11-12-2013, 05:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudypoochris
I don't think the edge of misfire lean burn is right. I run 16:1 lambda equivalent with 50% E85 and 50% gas mix with no problems. Same with idle.
It's just a reference...and that chart is for a true E85 and a true E70.

I'll work on a chart for the different stoich values for different mixes if I can't find one on the web.

Thanks for the contributions.



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Default 11-12-2013, 05:35 PM

I run mid 16:1 for all cruise ranges in my play truck. No issues what so ever in thousands of miles.
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Default 11-12-2013, 05:55 PM

I like this fuel mix calculator...it's in the middle of the page...maybe somebody knows how to extract it to post it here or of a better one?

Interesting on the lean idle and cruise values you guys are running.

Stoich actually produces the most heat IIRC, if so going just north of stoich should produce less heat.

The problem I think I'd have is that when running the E87 I do, there can be such a wide swing between idle and WOT that trims max out negative. Add to that, the rail/fuel temps rising when sitting in traffic with minimal use of fuel.....next thing you know...bank too rich code.

Then again, if I'm producing less heat at idle...that may help as well.

I may also have an injector contributing to that...I need to verify those.



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Default 11-12-2013, 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
It's just a reference...and that chart is for a true E85 and a true E70.

I'll work on a chart for the different stoich values for different mixes if I can't find one on the web.

Thanks for the contributions.
Yeah but more ethanol just lowers what the lean point is supposed to be according to that table. I know I can run leaner than 16:1. I would be surprised if it didn't support 17:1 but I haven't bothered trying because I believe the leaner you go the more you can damage the cats.

There is talk of 22:1 as viable on some lean burn engines and also that direct injection is the only means of getting very lean burns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_burn

Not saying that our engines are setup for lean burn, they aren't, but I do believe the economy is likely marginally better with the learner mix. Unfortunately this is negated for me right now since I am running ISO 27.5 which sucks a **** load of fuel. I need to go back to 19 but can't until I get my clutch fixed.


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Default 11-12-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Scaler table for different percentages of ethanol.

Attachment 16113

Source
You want higher scalars than that anyway though because there is already trimming happening stock with the JB4/flash. I set my scalar to 1.27 or so for normally 50% mixes but it can support no problem 30-75% mixes of E85.


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Default 11-12-2013, 08:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudypoochris
You want higher scalars than that anyway though because there is already trimming happening stock with the JB4/flash. I set my scalar to 1.27 or so for normally 50% mixes but it can support no problem 30-75% mixes of E85.
The difference between 1.213 and 1.27...is fairly negligible in relation to trims, both are well withing the DME's ability to adjust for. Optimal...not necessarily as you will run deeper in to your open loop or LTFT reserves.

Every car is different. We all make similar power at idle, but we are vastly different at 4-7k rpms. Somebody making 350whp at XX rpms running E50 has completely different fueling requirements than somebody making 450whp on E85 at the same rpms. Then throw in all the other variables such as ambient temps, altitude, setup....on top of that...ethanol is very sensitive to temperature differences...so fuel flowing through the rail at say 80 degrees vs. fuel that sits in the rail and reaches maybe 150-200 degrees then add in the fact that the DME only has so much room to adjust.....

As a reference..

Terry's E85 map runs a scaler of 1.52...race map...1.33...last I checked.

I attached a quick comparison of 4 different maps if you're interested.

1. Cobb E30
2. Cobb Map 2 aggressive
3. BT E85
4. BT race

Hopefully nobody minds since these are all public...if so, notify me and I'll remove this.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Map comparisons for N54.xls (90.0 KB, 610 views)



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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 11-12-2013 at 09:46 PM.. Reason: Excel file didn't upload...
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Default 11-12-2013, 09:00 PM

I disagree... I think .06 on trims has meaning. I was running the E85 maps base 1.35 scalar and that was sending me too rich for some of my blends. 1.27 gives me sufficient range. I guess to each his own, but 1.21 on my car with this fuel would be a trim out with 1.35 being too much in some cases.


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Default 11-12-2013, 09:27 PM

Great info guys. Subscribed!


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Default 11-13-2013, 04:57 PM

Awesome thread...
Thanks for the education!


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Default 11-15-2013, 08:18 AM

When actually filling the tank, how would you measure a gas to ethanol ratio without knowing exactly how much gas was already in the tank?
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Default 11-15-2013, 08:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ2
When actually filling the tank, how would you measure a gas to ethanol ratio without knowing exactly how much gas was already in the tank?
I always wait till I'm at 2-3/16th of a tank before filling. You can also calculate how much you have left if you see the fuel gauge as a fraction. the tank is 16 gallons and there are 16 ticks on the fuel gauge.

This link is great for figuring out your ratios http://e85prices.com/milesperdollar.htm


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Default 11-15-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
I like this fuel mix calculator...it's in the middle of the page...maybe somebody knows how to extract it to post it here or of a better one?
I thought this one was a good fuel mix calculator as well, but it doesn't match up with others. The one I use is here http://e85prices.com/milesperdollar.htm


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14 F30 335xi AT- Built Closed-Deck N55, SpeedTech Stage 3 w/ BW-8374C, MHD Flash, xHP Flash, E85, AFE Intake, VRSF 6" Race FMIC, VRSF CP, Fuel-it Stage 2 LPFP and PI
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Default 11-15-2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fmonteiro444
I always wait till I'm at 2-3/16th of a tank before filling. You can also calculate how much you have left if you see the fuel gauge as a fraction. the tank is 16 gallons and there are 16 ticks on the fuel gauge.

This link is great for figuring out your ratios http://e85prices.com/milesperdollar.htm
I've got an F30 335i. The tank is 15.8 gals and there are 20 ticks on the fuel gauge. Got any calculation tricks for this?

Does the mixture need to be an exact percentage in order to not damage anything?
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Default 11-15-2013, 09:36 AM

What year is your car? Edmunds lists the 2011 with a 16.1 tank


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Default 11-15-2013, 09:52 AM

2012 F30 335i.

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/...tyle=101420164
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Default 11-15-2013, 09:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ2
Have you ever let it go almost completely empty and then fill up? I bet you it holds 16 gallons.


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Default 11-15-2013, 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fmonteiro444
Have you ever let it go almost completely empty and then fill up? I bet you it holds 16 gallons.
Sure. I can squeeze 16 in.

My JB4 notes for the N55 engine state:
Map 7: Race gas map. Peak boost 18.5psi. Requires straight race gas or an E85 mix of 50%. If using E85 you also need our FlexFuel connector installed.

So with the FlexFuel connector installed, I'd need to run it to empty and fill up 8gals E85 and 8gals 91 octane to run Map 7.
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Default 11-15-2013, 01:00 PM

I do what Fmonteiro444 does by counting each tick of the gas gauge as a gallon. I also use the trip odometer in iDrive to determine the avg mpg and how many miles I have left. They are usually pretty close to one another.

I also calculate my E concentration for each tank and just do the math real quick at the station. Since I have E77 in my area now, the E85 calculator I was using wont work but its not difficult to figure on your own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ2
Sure. I can squeeze 16 in.

My JB4 notes for the N55 engine state:
Map 7: Race gas map. Peak boost 18.5psi. Requires straight race gas or an E85 mix of 50%. If using E85 you also need our FlexFuel connector installed.

So with the FlexFuel connector installed, I'd need to run it to empty and fill up 8gals E85 and 8gals 91 octane to run Map 7.
You dont have to empty the tank. Just mix it accordingly. You can assume you have E10 91 in there now. You'll just need to use more E85 and less E10 91 if you are starting with more than an empty tank. 8 and 8 puts you at E48 and 98 octane with 91. You really want to be closer to 100 octane with Map7 imo. With 91 octane as your base gasoline, you would need to achieve E59 to do this. I would also do the test tube test to see just how much E your fuel actually has in it. Many times it is not truly 85%. I would also log first before going overboard with the E concentration. Many times the LPFP isn't capable of handling these high concentrations without an inline booster.


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