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Default RB Game Finishers vs Single Turbo - 08-31-2021, 08:50 PM

Hey guys I am in the market for a set of upgraded turbo or turbos, as my stock turbos have finally started to rattle (still hold boost fine). My goal is to have a reliable setup with the occasional weekend roll race, mostly 40 n 60 mph rolls. Im looking at RBs Game Finisher turbos, specifically the TD04 High Flow ones.

My question is would these be best suited for roll racing? or Im I better off going single turbo? or maybe a different set of upgraded twin turbos? I plan to add supporting mods such as fueling to get the most out of whichever route I end up going with. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Btw my current car is a 2012 335is (DCT) FBO, stock location inlets/outlets, running JB4 w/ a custom e60 tune, and xHP DCT tune. Maintenance is up to date.

Last edited by montego54blue; 08-31-2021 at 08:55 PM.. Reason: Current car setup
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THE BEAST THE BEAST is offline
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Default 08-31-2021, 09:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by montego54blue
Hey guys I am in the market for a set of upgraded turbo or turbos, as my stock turbos have finally started to rattle (still hold boost fine). My goal is to have a reliable setup with the occasional weekend roll race, mostly 40 n 60 mph rolls. Im looking at RBs Game Finisher turbos, specifically the TD04 High Flow ones.

My question is would these be best suited for roll racing? or Im I better off going single turbo? or maybe a different set of upgraded twin turbos? I plan to add supporting mods such as fueling to get the most out of whichever route I end up going with. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Btw my current car is a 2012 335is (DCT) FBO, stock location inlets/outlets, running JB4 w/ a custom e60 tune, and xHP DCT tune. Maintenance is up to date.
Budget and power goal ?
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Default 08-31-2021, 09:32 PM

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Originally Posted by THE BEAST
Budget and power goal ?
Power goal would be about 600whp for now with room to get more out of the turbos in the future. As for budget, about 10k for now (most labor I can do myself, including upgrading the clutch packs on the DCT if it starts to slip).
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ruskiracer ruskiracer is offline
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Default 09-01-2021, 10:59 AM

Get a single turbo and like a 6466 or a 6870 it will stay in boost and pull very hard with the dct


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Default 09-01-2021, 02:15 PM

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Originally Posted by ruskiracer
Get a single turbo and like a 6466 or a 6870 it will stay in boost and pull very hard with the dct
I see Doc Racing has a gen 2 6466 bottom mount kit for 5k, which is about 1k more than RB's Hi-flow Game Finishers with hardware/install kit go for. Still an option I would consider though.

As far as roll racing, wouldn't the upgraded twin turbo set up have the advantage (lets say from a 40mph roll) due to more torque available at 4k rpm? By the time the single turbo spools up and catches up the race is most likely over. Might not be the case, but I know with stock turbos, N54 can beat higher horse power cars due to the power under the curve vs peak hp.
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ruskiracer ruskiracer is offline
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Default 09-01-2021, 06:19 PM

Basically a turbo that size will be in full boost and be making peak torque at that rpm, twins eith more torque have a higher chance at spinning the tires off


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Default 09-03-2021, 05:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by montego54blue
I see Doc Racing has a gen 2 6466 bottom mount kit for 5k, which is about 1k more than RB's Hi-flow Game Finishers with hardware/install kit go for. Still an option I would consider though.

As far as roll racing, wouldn't the upgraded twin turbo set up have the advantage (lets say from a 40mph roll) due to more torque available at 4k rpm? By the time the single turbo spools up and catches up the race is most likely over. Might not be the case, but I know with stock turbos, N54 can beat higher horse power cars due to the power under the curve vs peak hp.
Yikes. I'm awake way too late and could spend way too much time replying to a topic like this. There are a lot of considerations here.

A $10k budget is very solid, but can quickly be stretched thin with 600+whp goals. All depends on what's already done to the car. Of course, you'll need the turbo setup, port injection or other fueling solutions, and any other missing supporting mods. Then to put the power down you'll need a good wheel/tire setup, LSD, and possibly more.

Anyways, to hit 600+whp you're going to need heavy E85 mixes or you'll be relying on WMI. E85 would be ideal so hopefully you have easy/reasonable access to that.

As for turbo setups which one is better depends a lot on what speed these races are ending. A large single turbo is going to have big benefits on the top-end of the power band. RB GF's will hold the power very well to redline, but a single will have more potential in terms of peak power output.

I really like the N54 on twin turbos simply because I think the platform is well suited to 500-600whp. These are reasonable numbers where you can put the power down fairly well and without pushing the absolute limits of the engine. That said, large singles do increase the "safe" limits on stock internals. TD04's like the GF's offer similar benefits, but something like a 6766 is still a bit easier on the engine.

A 6766 or similar size turbo might be overkill. A 6466 or even a 6266 will easily eclipse 700whp. More power than I'd recommend pushing through stock internals for longevity reasons. The N54 can hold this power fairly well, but it's usually just a matter of time. Might be 6 months, with an excellent setup it will likely be a few years, but most N54's aren't going to hold 700+whp for more than a few years. That's especially true with the age, mileage, and abuse on these engines now days.

Anyways, my personal choice would be the following turbo setups by power goals:

550-575whp - RB Twos Plus
TD03's with quick spool and response. Ported compressor outlets. IMO this is the best stock-frame turbo option by a long shot. These turbos will easily make 600whp with a proper setup and E85. Good for 625+whp if you really want to lean on the turbos on high boost. I'd trust the turbos themselves above 600whp, but this is an extremely dangerous amount of power on stock internals from TD03 turbos. As such, I'd keep these turbos around 575whp peak.

600-650whp - RB Game Finisher Hi-Flows
This is a setup capable of 700+whp. There's some data around of these turbos making 681whp. It's far from a max effort setup and something that pretty much anyone can replicate with the right setup. More lag than TD03s and a higher boost threshold. Should still be more responsive than most singles, but it's not going to be THAT much better than something like a 6266.

650-700whp - Precision 6266 or 6466
Both of these turbos will retain OK spool. The biggest factor for singles is boost threshold. They simply need more RPM's to get going, but with enough RPM's (4k+ starting) they will still spool pretty well. A 6266 will easily hit these power goals, but a larger 6466 will just make it a bit easier on the engine.

700+whp - Built engine and 6466, 6766, or larger
I wouldn't venture into this territory without a built motor or understanding it might just be a matter of time before your N54 gives out. As such, I'll leave it at that.


2007 335i - JB4 + MHD BEF, RB Twos Plus, PI + Stage 3 LPFP, 100% E85, BMS DCI, VRSF **, VRSF 7.5" FMIC, VRSF CP w/ TiAL BOV, MMP inlets, VRSF aluminum outlets, XHP Stage 3, TC Kline SA, M3 F/R control arms
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ruskiracer ruskiracer is offline
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Default 09-03-2021, 06:28 AM

Good write up Zach, I agree with basically everything you said besides I think you can get the 6266 spooled up by like 3500 if you want to my old 6266 was spooled by then. Also another consideration about single turbos is the turbine housing a/r that will be the most profound difference when regarding spool and single turbos


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Default 09-03-2021, 02:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruskiracer
Good write up Zach, I agree with basically everything you said besides I think you can get the 6266 spooled up by like 3500 if you want to my old 6266 was spooled by then. Also another consideration about single turbos is the turbine housing a/r that will be the most profound difference when regarding spool and single turbos
Yeah certainly a lot more details in between that I didn't jump into. A/R is very important as you mention.

I agree that most smaller singles with the right tuning and setup will still spool pretty well before 4k RPM's. They'll have a bit more "lag" around 3k or 3.5k but should make the boost. I was mostly just thinking 4k since 40 (2nd gear) or 60 rolls (3rd gear) should normally be somewhere around the 4k RPM ballpark, which is generally enough RPM's to spool a 6266 pretty quickly.


2007 335i - JB4 + MHD BEF, RB Twos Plus, PI + Stage 3 LPFP, 100% E85, BMS DCI, VRSF **, VRSF 7.5" FMIC, VRSF CP w/ TiAL BOV, MMP inlets, VRSF aluminum outlets, XHP Stage 3, TC Kline SA, M3 F/R control arms
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ruskiracer ruskiracer is offline
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Default 09-03-2021, 03:29 PM

Another thing for him to consider is the torque difference and how hard he will be able to push the clutches until they start slipping


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Default 09-03-2021, 05:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruskiracer
Another thing for him to consider is the torque difference and how hard he will be able to push the clutches until they start slipping
Valid point. RB GF's will deliver a lot of power without needing too much torque. Of course, the torque is going to come in faster and harder on the twins and that is tougher on the engine, clutch, etc.

Here's actually a link to 700whp on a 6266 turbo. N54 Single Turbo 6266 Dyno at 24psi - N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion

I don't want to link out to another forum, but it's not hard to find the dyno of the RB GF's making 681whp.

Dyno comparisons aren't always perfect, but these are at least both STD correction on dynojets with 5 smoothing (and similar peak power & torque on similar boost). It's important to note the 6266 example is on the JB4 with an off-the-shelf MHD back-end flash tune. With custom tuning there's likely potential for better spool and better overall results. The RB GF's were on a custom tune. Anyways, it's probably about as close an example as you'll find on the internet.

The RB GF's made 681whp at 6.4k and 615wtq at 5.5k RPM on 27psi. The 6266 is making 703whp at 6.3k and 622wtq at 5.3k RPM on 28psi. Very very similar results for peak power, peak torque, boost, and the RPM's at which the peak numbers occur. A further breakdown looks something like this:

4,000 RPM
RB GF's - 450whp and 590wtq
6266 - 410whp and 540wtq

4,500 RPM
RB GF's - 520whp and 610wtq
6266 - 500whp and 580wtq

5,000 RPM
RB GF's - 585whp and 615wtq
6266 - 585whp and 615wtq

Results up to end are nearly identical, but the 6266 has a slight advantage above ~6,500 RPM's where it should hold the power a little better. It also has a roughly 20whp advantage based on these dynos. Peak numbers would maybe be closer if the RB's were turned up an extra 1 PSI to match the 28psi on the 6266.

Again, the 6266 was NOT on a custom tune so there's probably opportunity to dial things in a little better and get some better spool along with more power at similar boost. Dynos are really for baseline numbers, so comparing two different cars, on different days, different locations, etc isn't an excellent comparison.

Regardless, I think a 6266 and RB GF's are going to be a very similar setup. The twins have the slight advantage on the low-end and mid-range at the cost of the quicker response being just a bit harder on components. The 6266 is going to have the slight advantage on the top-end but mostly just above ~6,300 or 6,500 RPM's. If you want more headroom and even more top-end capable then a 6466 is a good turbo, but it might take an extra 100-200ish RPM's to get to full boost (assuming all else is equal).

If you're racing from say 40-100mph or 60-120mph (something in those ballparks) then yes the RB's will probably have a minor advantage on the hit. Assuming both drivers react at the same time the RB's should pull out a small lead and they hold power well enough to redline to probably hold the lead. Above 120mph the top-end of the single should start gaining ground and potentially pull ahead. In a perfect race on cars setup exactly the same (less the 6266 vs RB turbos) we're probably talking about one car winning by a bumper or door panel. Neither one is going to gap the other by car or bus lengths.

Either way, these setups should be so close that even a difference in like .1 or .2 second reaction times, traction, conditions, etc could sway the results one way or another.


2007 335i - JB4 + MHD BEF, RB Twos Plus, PI + Stage 3 LPFP, 100% E85, BMS DCI, VRSF **, VRSF 7.5" FMIC, VRSF CP w/ TiAL BOV, MMP inlets, VRSF aluminum outlets, XHP Stage 3, TC Kline SA, M3 F/R control arms
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Last edited by zach1328; 09-03-2021 at 05:51 PM..
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ruskiracer ruskiracer is offline
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Default 09-03-2021, 06:15 PM

Yeah pretty well put Zach with good numbers to back it up. Basically the last factor that you could maybe consider is long term reliability, id say both will be pretty close just a top mount turbo would be way easier replacing than stock location twins. Heat could be a concern I've done alot of heat preventative on mine and recommended everyone thinking of top mount to donthe same


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Default 09-07-2021, 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zach1328
Either way, these setups should be so close that even a difference in like .1 or .2 second reaction times, traction, conditions, etc could sway the results one way or another.
Thanks for taking the time to give detailed information, exactly what I wanted to know. Leaning towards the bottom mount turbo kit from Doc Racing since the RBs are backordered until next year. Thinking of going with 6466 vs the 6266. E85 is readily available in my area.
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ruskiracer ruskiracer is offline
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Default 09-07-2021, 08:32 PM

I've got a doc race top mount but have heard some issues with fitment with there bottom mounts, other good bottom mount options are speedtech and ces if you wanna shop around a bit


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Default 09-07-2021, 08:38 PM

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Originally Posted by ruskiracer
I've got a doc race top mount but have heard some issues with fitment with there bottom mounts, other good bottom mount options are speedtech and ces if you wanna shop around a bit
Yeah I will shop around and see whats available. Read that the bottom mount setup spools a bit quicker due to manifold design? As far as the DCT I am prepared to replace the clutch packs once they fail. Now I just got to decide between 6266 or 6466.
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ruskiracer ruskiracer is offline
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Default 09-07-2021, 08:44 PM

I've driven cars with 6466s and 6266s with proper tuning your not gonna be able to notice the difference. Also I wouldn't say that a bottom mount will spool faster the exhaust gas at the end of the day is still gonna be directed all to the turbine wheel still either way.


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Default 09-07-2021, 08:45 PM

Also cars ran on e85 are gonna spool up alot faster than cars driven on pump gas. What clutch packs you been thinking about?


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Default 09-07-2021, 08:50 PM

I will be running PI full e85 so that is good to know. I am going with SSP SPEC-R clutches w/ M4 Flywheel, heard less than favorable things from Dodson.
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Default 09-07-2021, 09:03 PM

Deka Clutch Technology DCT Stage 3 Clutch With Basket - BMW F10 M5 | F06 | F12 | F13 M6 Evolve Tuning
Yeah the Dodson don't seem to like to learn properly, this is another good option not as well known of a brand here in the states but solid clutches forsure with people running serious power through them


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Default 09-07-2021, 11:02 PM

Deka Clutch Technology DCT Stage 3 Clutch With Basket - BMW F10 M5 | F06 | F12 | F13 M6 Evolve Tuning
Yeah the Dodson don't seem to like to learn properly, this is another good option not as well known of a brand here in the states but solid clutches forsure with people running serious power through them


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Default 09-09-2021, 03:33 AM

Yeah go 6466 IMO. As Ruski stated you really won't notice much difference, if any. All else equal including tuning, the 6466 will take some extra RPMs to spool. However, it's a small difference and there's enough power and torque that we're talking about a tenth of a second or something around that. You're probably not going to feel that.

A 6266 can pretty easily make 700whp and 725-750whp is possible. More than Id like to see on a stock motor. You mentioned reliable and unless you're building the motor Id say 650whp on 100% E85 is a safe long-term number. Things can still go south, but I trust the N54 at 650whp on something like a 6266 or 6466. 675-700whp is still probably OK on 100% E85, but the further you push the greater the risk.

Point here being - the 6266 will hit those numbers. A 6466 isn't THAT much bigger, but it will still hit X power goal with a little less boost, back-pressure, etc (again, assuming all else equal). So even though the 6266 can max the N54 safe limits and beyond I still think a 6466 is your better option. Close enough spool, a bit easier on the engine, and more headroom to turn things up in the future or occasional glory runs.


2007 335i - JB4 + MHD BEF, RB Twos Plus, PI + Stage 3 LPFP, 100% E85, BMS DCI, VRSF **, VRSF 7.5" FMIC, VRSF CP w/ TiAL BOV, MMP inlets, VRSF aluminum outlets, XHP Stage 3, TC Kline SA, M3 F/R control arms
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Last edited by zach1328; 09-09-2021 at 03:38 AM..
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