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Terry @ BMS's Avatar
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Default JB4 PUMP BEF Map testing and new features - 02-23-2016, 12:50 PM

Hey guys,

The last couple of days I've been evaluating the JB4 PUMP back end flash maps and looking for ways to improve them as well as the JB4 operation. Part of that process includes testing some of the flash only maps for comparison so we know how the competition stacks up in terms of aggressiveness and power.

Anyway the first JB4 improvement to come from all of this is a new JB4 gauge only option. Starting with v32.2 firmware I've assigned selection 4/4 in dash to "flash only" mode. This is similar to the previous "gauges only" firmware which will now become obsolete. I've moved CANflap to a on/off toggle on option 4/5. Menu4 will now default to the BEF mode selected (4/2 BEF, 4/3 no BEF, 4/4 Flash Only).

When mode 4/4 Flash Only is selected the follow occurs:

1) On any map other than 0 the JB4 acts like map4, bypass mode, with JB4 logging/gauges active. The JB4 does not change or alter the tuning. If using JB4 controlled meth then meth will flow on maps 3, 6, and 7 but without a safety system and ignoring whatever boost target the JB4 is programmed to for that map.
2) If you leave the white subconnector installed, the JB4 runs boost targeting using its user adjustment settings including menu 10, 12, FF, duty bias by RPM, anti-rattle, etc. The target is always equal to the flash boost target but the JB4 runs the actual wastegate control. This is useful for switching back and forth between flash only and JB4 maps without opening the DME. Also lets the JB4 mask one of the common problems with flash tuning which is the boost control.
3) If you put the white only suconnector back to stock, as shown in the photo, and what I've done for the flash map testing, then the JB4 and its boost control settings have no influence at all on boost control. It's 100% strictly logging and gauges only.
4) With option 4/4 selected map0 disables the JB4 CANbus module all together allowing for OBDII logging via the MHD. The catch is to use map0 in this mode then you must also run the configuration outlined in 3) with the white subconnector back to stock. The JB4 can not properly control boost without its CANbus module active so map0 on option 4/4 will result in zero boost unless the white subconnector is placed back to stock.

The first flash only map I'm testing is the MHD Stage2 for 93 octane. It's an interesting first map to test as its the most aggressive map out there. The test vehicle is on 93 octane, and is running the factory *** & IC (e.g. tune+DCI only), so this gives an opportunity to test how the pump maps respond to knock in a situation where they should be too aggressive.

Couple notes so far:

1) This MHD Stage2 93 octane map is very aggressive for pump gas. It's targeting 1.28 bar (18psi) to redline, 5 degrees timing down low, 8 degrees timing up top, with a fairly heavy IAT timing taper.
2) The gas pedal mapping is set very aggressive. It targets around 10psi at 30-40% throttle input and 18psi at 70% input. Very much a sprint-booster effect. On the JB4 end I'm going to make the menu 11 range more aggressive so this can be matched for customers who prefer it.
3) I've only done a few logs so far but strangely the car is not pulling much timing. I flashed over to our current PUMP back end flash map which has close to the factory knock tables in place and at 17psi it had much more timing pull. Before I throw MHD under the bus for desensitizing the knock tables too much on pump gas I'll better evaluate it. At the very least knock tables are something we should discuss especially on aggressive pump gas maps.
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Default 02-23-2016, 12:57 PM

Nice work Terry! Looks like some solid progress on all fronts! As for the knock sensitivity. After losing two motors to just one detonation instance, I will never touch the factory settings again. They are there to protect the motor, and do a great job of it. desensitizing them will break a lot of ring lands, on any fuel if you push hard enough.


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Default 02-23-2016, 01:24 PM

As someone who currently has JB4 but plans on adding an MHD BEF, this is great progress. In for results.


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Default 02-23-2016, 01:55 PM

I honestly don't think the knock tables should be touched on anything other than a built motor. The stock settings are fine (if a little over protective) for stock unopened motors.

However, the more pertinent issue lies in them being axis'd off calculated mg/stk of airflow. Anyone running a 3.5bar or 4bar TMAP is WAY off on these calculations. Even with the stock TMAP, mods like ***, inlets, etc throw this calculation off even on stock turbos, hell even DCI's throw it off slightly. This is where a discussion is necessary as to how best realign these calcs, which tables would be needed, and what else can be done.


Enjoying the new tables discovered and the XDF progress made? if you'd like. Every bit is appreciated!
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Default 02-23-2016, 01:59 PM

woah that didnt take long, good work bud! n54 folks are spoiled AF


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Default 02-23-2016, 02:09 PM

Good info as always. Data trumps all.



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Terry @ BMS's Avatar
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Default 02-23-2016, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech
Nice work Terry! Looks like some solid progress on all fronts! As for the knock sensitivity. After losing two motors to just one detonation instance, I will never touch the factory settings again. They are there to protect the motor, and do a great job of it. desensitizing them will break a lot of ring lands, on any fuel if you push hard enough.
It's definitely something that needs to be discussed. I have no doubt altering the tables has contributed to damaged pistons on big boost hybrid turbo cars. On the other hand, they have also greatly contributed to all the new power and track records being set, and it's not like no motors ever blew up before we started playing with those tables.

The real determining factor to me is the aggressiveness of the tuning. For something like pump gas where boost is cranked very high, factory values make a lot of sense. But on the other hand for a 100% E85 setup running reasonable boost levels, where there is clearly false knock, not changing them really hurts performance.

For the short term I'm going to reverse most of the changes to the knock tables on pump, race, and hybrid E85 maps. I'll leave the changes in place on stock turbo E85 & single turbo E85 maps. Expect back end flash map updates to be posted tomorrow.


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Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-23-2016, 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
I honestly don't think the knock tables should be touched on anything other than a built motor. The stock settings are fine (if a little over protective) for stock unopened motors.

However, the more pertinent issue lies in them being axis'd off calculated mg/stk of airflow. Anyone running a 3.5bar or 4bar TMAP is WAY off on these calculations. Even with the stock TMAP, mods like ***, inlets, etc throw this calculation off even on stock turbos, hell even DCI's throw it off slightly. This is where a discussion is necessary as to how best realign these calcs, which tables would be needed, and what else can be done.
This


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mave198 mave198 is offline
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Default 02-23-2016, 02:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech
Nice work Terry! Looks like some solid progress on all fronts! As for the knock sensitivity. After losing two motors to just one detonation instance, I will never touch the factory settings again. They are there to protect the motor, and do a great job of it. desensitizing them will break a lot of ring lands, on any fuel if you push hard enough.

Just curious do you know if the factory knock settings were in place when Dzenno tuned your GC turbos to get them to 700+hp?
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Default 02-23-2016, 02:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
I honestly don't think the knock tables should be touched on anything other than a built motor. The stock settings are fine (if a little over protective) for stock unopened motors.

However, the more pertinent issue lies in them being axis'd off calculated mg/stk of airflow. Anyone running a 3.5bar or 4bar TMAP is WAY off on these calculations. Even with the stock TMAP, mods like ***, inlets, etc throw this calculation off even on stock turbos, hell even DCI's throw it off slightly. This is where a discussion is necessary as to how best realign these calcs, which tables would be needed, and what else can be done.
The variance of values between the mg/stk changes is very low. Much less than the difference between cyl2 and cyl1, for example. But I'm sure there are other undefined related tables we should find.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-23-2016, 02:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mave198
Just curious do you know if the factory knock settings were in place when Dzenno tuned your GC turbos to get them to 700+hp?
While it can hurt on the dyno the false knock problem normally rears it's ugly head at the track during shifts.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-23-2016, 03:57 PM

The current set of MHD stand alone maps (v5) is soon to be replaced by v6 maps. Anyways, notes on your notes:

1) The 18psi target in v5 was too high, but the actual boost of users is around 14-15 at 6000rpm using our wgdc (flash only).

2) The 70% pedal -> 100% throttle is simply the stock pedal setting. For flash only users, there is a linear throttle flash option for 100% throttle at 100% pedal. Some prefer stock, other the linear response, we leave the choice.

3) We less aggressive knock settings than the BMS backend (and we will likely revert to stock in v6). If you see more knock with your backend map, you may look elsewhere

Really happy to see the jb4 can be used for gauges only, the interest has been there for a while.
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Default 02-23-2016, 04:01 PM

Interesting, especially on the boost target. I ran it with full flash control and as you see in the log boost target & control is at 18psi to redline, spiking to 20psi at the shift. I'll wait for the latest v6 map before doing any real comparison.

Are your knock tables in the map unaltered?

I loaded up our JB4 PUMP back end flash map with 100% stock knock tables, and did a similar run on the current map2 which is 17psi tapering to 14psi, and there is fairly substantial knock feedback. My goal here is not to point out something negative with the MHD map but rather ensure the JB4 maps & features provided are better.
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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-23-2016, 04:22 PM

Nice work guys


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Default 02-23-2016, 04:55 PM

One of the most interesting and useful threads I've read in awhile. I really like where this is headed.

As far as the knock tables go in the E85 BEF, I think that with 100% E85 that the knock tables should be desensitized SLIGHTLY but not to the extent that they are. I'm happy to see that you are editing the knock tables closer to stock.


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Default 02-23-2016, 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
It's definitely something that needs to be discussed. I have no doubt altering the tables has contributed to damaged pistons on big boost hybrid turbo cars. On the other hand, they have also greatly contributed to all the new power and track records being set, and it's not like no motors ever blew up before we started playing with those tables.

The real determining factor to me is the aggressiveness of the tuning. For something like pump gas where boost is cranked very high, factory values make a lot of sense. But on the other hand for a 100% E85 setup running reasonable boost levels, where there is clearly false knock, not changing them really hurts performance.

For the short term I'm going to reverse most of the changes to the knock tables on pump, race, and hybrid E85 maps. I'll leave the changes in place on stock turbo E85 & single turbo E85 maps. Expect back end flash map updates to be posted tomorrow.
Anyway you could reverse the e85 maps as well for those of us who are paranoid and lack the tunning capability?
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Default 02-23-2016, 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deen@StreetKingImports
Anyway you could reverse the e85 maps as well for those of us who are paranoid and lack the tunning capability?
Sure, they are in the 2/23 release. I'll have to talk to Martial about making the KR changes a flash time check box to eliminate the need to have a separate version of each map.


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Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-23-2016, 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Sure, they are in the 2/23 release. I'll have to talk to Martial about making the KR changes a flash time check box to eliminate the need to have a separate version of each map.
Terry, would you say that there is a risk that is worth considering for us E85 backend stock turbo guys with the adjusted knock tables? All of this makes me worry now...
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Default 02-23-2016, 07:51 PM

Very much looking forward to continuing development on the Pump gas BEF, Terry. Thank you for supporting it.


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Default 02-23-2016, 08:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfiftyfore
Terry, would you say that there is a risk that is worth considering for us E85 backend stock turbo guys with the adjusted knock tables? All of this makes me worry now...
Like most of tuning it's a subjective call. On pump gas fuels pushing high boost levels, like we're going to need to do to compete with that really aggressive MHD pump map, I'd prefer to have the knock sensors sensitive. On more conservative pump maps as we've been running I think the benefits outweigh the risks. On E85 with stock turbos using a reasonable timing curve I also think the benefits outweigh the risks. The more questionable area are hybrid turbos on E85. At high boost levels and RPM they have very high back pressure. On the other hand the false timing drops really hurts their performance at the track. Could go either way on those at this moment.

What I've done is relabeled any back end flash map that has the KR tables altered as [KR] so users can make the call on their own. As a result I expect many will start complaining about their poor timing curves, even when octane is more than sufficient, but that loss of performance at times is just the other side of this trade off.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 02-24-2016, 12:48 AM

I highly feel going forward the map updates should be discussed briefly as far as changes in aggressiveness such as the knock table sensitivity. I felt it wasn't a good idea when the talk about it was going on and the only way anyone knew is if they read through the thread. Given that people have had issues and discussions around this are starting to occur again, can we get a revised gameplan in regards to this area as well please? I think it'd save a lot of headaches when the pump flash is just offered up as a better alternative than stock but without addressing any of the risks.

Thanks
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Default 02-24-2016, 05:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe
Very much looking forward to continuing development on the Pump gas BEF, Terry. Thank you for supporting it.
Plus 1
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Default 02-24-2016, 06:34 AM

Always impressed with Terry and the BMS team! Thank you for the continued support and development of the platform.


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Default 02-24-2016, 07:23 AM

Great work, Terry! If I put the Jb4 on 4/4, leaving the white subconnector, will the port injection still function since it is integrated with the jb4?
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Default 02-24-2016, 08:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexic
Great work, Terry! If I put the Jb4 on 4/4, leaving the white subconnector, will the port injection still function since it is integrated with the jb4?
Yes, it will.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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