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Default N54 Platform Turbo "Chinese Cast Craze" in full force... - 07-16-2017, 01:07 PM

All,

There are some "new casted" offerings floating amuck with promise of "better flow, better materials, brand new, and best cost". Now it is always great to have new options especially for a better price, but understand that these items are 100% cheap chinese produced "core" offerings. We have considered their usage as well as this platform is evolving into a more competitive environment (cheaper cars, etc etc); but when we already have a "dialed-in" product we wonder if it is worth the potential risks of making a SUBSTANTIAL change to a lower quality oriented direction? All for the end result of selling a product for the same cost, or maybe a couple hundred less, at best. Being a vendor who is ultimately responsible for product quality these are thoughts that are very critical. Additionally even though the warranty is "only" a year we still would like products to last many MANY years. We especially would like to not have product fail due to poor metallurgical or casting quality, and this type of problem is EPIDEMIC.

As you may understand we have had these units in hand for a while now as they have been readily available for close to a year. Despite what some vendors may say, such as "we own the design" or "custom made only for us" comments rest assured these exact same units they are utilizing. There is nothing special about them and whoever may obtain them (especially with a large bulk order) and the ONLY customization that maybe setting apart Vendor to Vendor is the differences of the internal wheel machining specifications. These wheel specs however have nothing to do with the overall housing design and quality.

Our immediate initial impressions are that they are a certain downgrade- and here are a few reasons why:

1) Highly Magnetic to show a larger Iron content (ie. in lieu of the OE style MHI High Quality High Heat Austenitic Stainless steel)(we have metallurgical analysis underway)
2) Similar to smaller ID manifold/turbine housing dimensions (we have cross sections underway) and certain poorer flow paths per borescope views
NOTE: We CERTAINLY are NOT seeing these as larger ID specs!!!
3) Lack of OE style Double wall insulated air gapped (made by Boysen) manifolds for worse heat retention
4) Much thicker casting walls (large OD specs from thicker materials so "looks" a bit larger) and each housing at over 10lbs vs. under 7lbs for OEM

Good things we see (with using them):
1) Very cheap to purchase
2) Being new there is no refurbishment
3) Come pre-equipped with "new" wastegates (albeit the worst aftermarket design we have found)

Good things we see from their availability (while others use them):
1) Will free up a ton of higher quality OEM cores to use as the base builds

Few good links to educate oneself:
1) http://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/revi...53/e453001.pdf
2) http://www.fev.com/fileadmin/user_up...foldDesign.pdf
3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QavP6JH7oTQ

We are very curious to see how the competition has came up with some of their "conclusions" on these new "core" units being superior. They've come to the conclusion that these are higher flowing and better quality manifolds/housings, but we are unsure how that can be whatsoever on our initial findings. They'd be welcome to post up any data they've found in this thread, whether they do or don't it is not of great concern as we will soon- good or bad.

Obviously our perception (vs. that of some of competitors) have come to some very different conclusions here, and of course everything is up for debate but our thoughts are this is a rather risky maneuver to use as a core product for a base build/upgrade... at least NOT without much further due diligence. Even then it will take an awful lot more perks, that we are not even remotely seeing at this moment, to warrant the slight savings of making this change.

Rob


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 07-16-2017 at 01:36 PM..
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liteweight13 liteweight13 is offline
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Default 07-16-2017, 03:20 PM

I can see where you are coming from Rob. But time will tell the reliability of these new Cast manifolds and turbos. I can only speak highly of your product as i have a set of OG RB turbos and they serve me well and have been pushed hard with no ill effects.
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Default 07-16-2017, 05:15 PM

I knew it right away. I'm trying to find the quote from Tony saying they will be using these in the future. Its being denied they are the same on other forums.


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Default 07-17-2017, 09:12 AM

So as we noticed the competitive vendor posts were edited this morning it compelled us to go ahead and also dice the China manifold this morning... someones hands seem to be caught in the cooker jar. First let us review the "new" version of the marketing-

Vendor:"All current stock frame turbo manifolds choke down to a very tight 1.25” diameter passageway before entering the turbo housing. We found this to be a significant bottleneck at about the 700 whp mark give or take a little, depending on how much you like tons of backpressure in your system. Not going to make 700 whp? It's still a problem; greater backpressure means your engine breaths less easily, making you have to run higher boost for a given power level. Our new Stage 2 and 2+ are new (did we mention new?), fully cast housings that open that diameter up from 1.24” to 1.30”, which is a 5% increase in area. They breath a little easier, which helps eliminate excessive back pressure."

Keep in mind prior to this posting, yesterday, it was: "1.25" to 1.50", a 44% increase"... got to love cleanup marketing.

Re: OEM vs. China Manifold to housing connection point cutaway and sizing

Verdict- China housing is actually ~.050" smaller in this area. More clear views inside both manifolds and housings illustrate that if anything it is a "close performer" to OEM and not superior in anyway whatsoever (when it comes to airflow performance only). The casting is actually very poor and seems to be "scrunched" further in some areas. A flow bench test of each manifold maybe in order at some point, however next up is metallurgical analysis.

Thanks,
Rob
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See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

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Default 07-17-2017, 09:40 AM

damn hahahahaha!!!! you may have been MIA on the forums lately but def putting in work! good find and thanks for sharing......


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Default 07-17-2017, 09:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newguy123
damn hahahahaha!!!! you may have been MIA on the forums lately but def putting in work! good find and thanks for sharing......
You are welcome sir. It really goes to demonstrate how far this little number will go to make a sale. Has there ever been any bounds? Doubtful. Pretty sad really.


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fredcase fredcase is offline
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Default 07-17-2017, 10:19 AM

frankenturbo posted more pics of these housings. total garbage.

nice work rob.


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Default 07-17-2017, 10:29 AM

I have to take responsibility here. Simply put, I $#@!ed up. I mixed up these dimensions with dimensions on another project that's based on GC's. I acknowledge it looks bad, and it's no ones fault but my own, and quite frankly I'm embarrassed about it. This is one of the liabilities of being in a different state making tech posts. Corrections have been made everywhere I posted.

I disagree with nearly everything else Rob posted, but needed to clear the air.

Chris


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Default 07-17-2017, 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech
I have to take responsibility here. Simply put, I $#@!ed up. I mixed up these dimensions with dimensions on another project that's based on GC's. I acknowledge it looks bad, and it's no ones fault but my own, and quite frankly I'm embarrassed about it. This is one of the liabilities of being in a different state making tech posts. Corrections have been made everywhere I posted.

I disagree with nearly everything else Rob posted, but needed to clear the air.

Chris
So for the record you disagree with the following:

1) They are slightly smaller (or at best similar) in flow path?
2) They are cheap chinese casted units?
3) Double wall insulated air gap does retain heat better than single cast wall manifolds?
4) They are metallurgically inferior? (Austenitic Stainless Cast is superior to Cast Iron)
5) The wastegates are the worst aftermarket availability on the market?
6) They will flow worse?

We should all realize the answers even with just a TEENIE bit of research to #1-4. So if you disagree with them quite frankly it is a little shocking as to why? Please enlighten and #5 and #6 we will dissect thereafter.

Thanks,
Rob


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 07-17-2017 at 11:22 AM..
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Default 07-17-2017, 11:34 AM

Lets point out what this really is. Robs sales have plummeted in the past year since we have several options for hybrids. Mmp cant produce turbos fast enough for the demand. Vargas is refreshing their whole offering .. (ooops forgot Pure and their blemish free record)

And heres rob with consistently smoking turbos. Your “evo”line or whatever is a complete flop. You really have nothing to offer this community anymore except pcv delete kits. Literally YEARS of milking us with these crapshoot hybrids. Some work, most fail quickly.
This is the result....
You making snowflake posts to put yourself in the spotlight, just like the whole 2 inch inlet debate with Tony.



This nonsense is beyond old Rob.
If you’re so upset about someone elses product and profits then make a better product. THE END.
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Default 07-17-2017, 11:37 AM

Interesting. Do we have a resource in the community with actual measurements of all available turbo and manifold offerings? Things like this make me wary of purchasing products without photo proof going forward.

In for total vendor transparency going forward, I've had it with "trade secrets".

For better or worse given the ulterior motive in sure was behind this thread, thanks for the information Rob.


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Default 07-17-2017, 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe
Interesting. Do we have a resource in the community with actual measurements of all available turbo and manifold offerings? Things like this make me wary of purchasing products without photo proof going forward.

In for total vendor transparency going forward, I've had it with "trade secrets".

For better or worse given the ulterior motive in sure was behind this thread, thanks for the information Rob.
The ulterior motive is to enlighten the community about things that were being marketed as very praise worthy when it is far from the truth. We knew this core line would be picked up sooner or later, and we ordered them ourselves as using these would make life a bit easier and allow to make products cheaper.

The outcome was that we were immediately turned off and then pretty much forgot about it. We figured at some point someone would bring them to market which is no problem at all and is their decision. The only issue here is that a vendor decided to make what we consider very bold and wildly incorrect claims (regarding superiority) over the OEM housings and figured it was time to set it straight.


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Default 07-17-2017, 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical
Lets point out what this really is. Robs sales have plummeted in the past year since we have several options for hybrids. Mmp cant produce turbos fast enough for the demand. Vargas is refreshing their whole offering .. (ooops forgot Pure and their blemish free record)

And heres rob with consistently smoking turbos. Your “evo”line or whatever is a complete flop. You really have nothing to offer this community anymore except pcv delete kits. Literally YEARS of milking us with these crapshoot hybrids. Some work, most fail quickly.
This is the result....
You making snowflake posts to put yourself in the spotlight, just like the whole 2 inch inlet debate with Tony.



This nonsense is beyond old Rob.
If you’re so upset about someone elses product and profits then make a better product. THE END.
Appreciate your feedback. It is true we are not 50 sets of turbos in the hole, and believe me we do not want to live that way EVER again. Life is too short for that kind of stress and we did it for years, it will kill a man! Praise the gods for competition!

We are very ok with maintaining sub 10 set backlogs and having fairly quick turn arounds, and we hope at some point we can get these on the shelves for immediate shipments... getting there but still can't outpace the demand at the moment.

Thanks,
Rob


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

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ShocknAwe ShocknAwe is offline
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Default 07-17-2017, 03:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
The ulterior motive is to enlighten the community about things that were being marketed as very praise worthy when it is far from the truth. We knew this core line would be picked up sooner or later, and we ordered them ourselves as using these would make life a bit easier and allow to make products cheaper.

The outcome was that we were immediately turned off and then pretty much forgot about it. We figured at some point someone would bring them to market which is no problem at all and is their decision. The only issue here is that a vendor decided to make what we consider very bold and wildly incorrect claims (regarding superiority) over the OEM housings and figured it was time to set it straight.
Fair. Thanks for the response.


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Default 07-17-2017, 03:51 PM

Just when we figured there could be some (albeit very slight) chance there was in fact an honest mixup regarding the new cores advertised as being 44% larger vs. the now 5% larger (even though they are likely 5% smaller) we get this emailed today: Chris@VargasTurboTech- "We designed the castings and own the design completely".

Don't see how this could also be explained? Possibly a case of mixed up post-its, or a cluttered desk, maybe static on the phone line, how about transposing tech docs over google translate for fun, or maybe the good old smartphone spell check correction? We are sure if anyone can come with something clever it will be these guys.

Rob
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liteweight13 liteweight13 is offline
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Default 07-17-2017, 05:50 PM

This is great stuff. I think the cast turbos are not a bad thing due to cheaper costs. But i think they should probably market it as cheaper with no core cost which is a good thing in its own right. There is a lot of meat on the casting though maybe the manifolds could be opened up once VTT gets a hold of them then they could hold true to there claims.
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Default 07-17-2017, 05:55 PM

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/112350211273


Same crap. I got removed from his thread on the other forum for calling him on his b.s.

I was calling it before rob even posted anything about this.


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liteweight13 liteweight13 is offline
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Default 07-17-2017, 06:01 PM

Damn i bet they did want to sue these as cores add a billet wheel and add over double the price. Thats a big money maker there.
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Default 07-17-2017, 06:21 PM

The deal is that these China companies spam us all the time, that is all of us vendors. Some of us take their bait while some ponder it for a second and then realize it is too much of a risk. We have a spam folder filled with solicitations, and while we have never had to use one yet for any sourcing they are there. We would suggest watching the video from Forced Performance in post #1 and hear what he has to say about that sort of thing...

Regarding these Chinafold cores here is the skinny that they will do for you:
1) You provide them your sample wheels.
2) They will machine all housings for you.
3) They will assemble/balance them (not required but they prefer it, likely relates to #5).
4) They have a MOQ of sets for this service (ie. 20, 30, etc)
5) Then they will probably put it on Ebay in short order.

What this means is that you have a Group Buy to pay for a bunch of China junk turbos, upgraded overseas to your specs, and also possibly assembled and poorly balanced in China. They have great equipment for the balancing, at least in pictures, however they do not use it too well apparently as see the link where we tested them about a month ago:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=47

As one of our popular vendors does not have any in-house CNC machinery (been farming it out for years), this type of process helps them a LOT. That same vendor also has sub par in-house turbo balancing machinery, so they may have intended on having that function performed overseas too. Anyones best guess at this point.

So while some of us have a push for their OWN in-house quality control, some others just are in for the outsource.

This is some of the realest talk you'll ever get on these matters, and I certainly hope it helps you understand what is truly going on.

Thanks,
Rob


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

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liteweight13 liteweight13 is offline
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Default 07-17-2017, 06:41 PM

Now my next question is are all the cast manifolds created equal. Is MMP, Vargas getting these from the same place or are they using different suppliers?
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Default 07-17-2017, 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by liteweight13
There is a lot of meat on the casting though maybe the manifolds could be opened up once VTT gets a hold of them then they could hold true to there claims.
You are right. Very heavy and meaty. Metallurgically though we just do not know that thickness maybe 100% needed for these things to survive. Also as they are Iron they can not be welded with any sort of stability, so they'd have to be extrude honed (pre-machining) for any flow benefits and that is a VERY expensive process. Then the removed material could fatigue the housing to even a quicker destruction. All in all a lot of investment into a risky component.


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Default 07-17-2017, 06:44 PM

Rob, whats your views on the other "Chinese" turbos from "Taiwan"
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Default 07-17-2017, 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
You are right. Very heavy and meaty. Metallurgically though we just do not know that thickness maybe 100% needed for these things to survive. Also as they are Iron they can not be welded with any sort of stability, so they'd have to be extrude honed (pre-machining) for any flow benefits and that is a VERY expensive process. Then the removed material could fatigue the housing to even a quicker destruction. All in all a lot of investment into a risky component.
I agree honing could weaken and cause a crack in the housing. Im wondering if there could be an alternative to this. The one thing i do love about the gc turbos is the 2 piece design which can save some serious time and headache with a turbo install.

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Default 07-17-2017, 07:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichiban
Rob, whats your views on the other "Chinese" turbos from "Taiwan"
We have measurements on those as well and pictures. Very disturbing there too when it comes to true turbine housing A/R, compressor housing a/r and compressor housing outlet size (smaller than OEM!). The only thing we see that looks good is the manifold and throat but leads to an ultimate A/R in the turbine housing that is OEM sized. And when we say A/R, we don't meant the throat (the marketed A/R), we mean the true A/R by definition as seen here:
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbo...housing_sizing

With a lot of hand porting, however, the housings could possibly flow quite a bit. We suspect this is what has allowed some of the better results that we see out there, but once again that is only our gut feeling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liteweight13
I agree honing could weaken and cause a crack in the housing. Im wondering if there could be an alternative to this. The one thing i do love is the 2 piece design which can save some serious time and headache with a turbo install.
We would not want to risk any $$ for these China-housings to flop, these things are very costly and we are done with risks. We've taken numerous risk over the years and sometimes it was good and a couple times it was bad. We like where we are at so maybe some other will give it a whirl for you? Ultimately we would suggest a larger setup (ST, Custom Twins) if you are looking for more power

Also we have heard that the 2 piece design is not very helpful on installs (why would it be?!, it's more work with more hardware!). And then there are conflicting reports on how they are as replacements, so we think a lot of that "time savings" claim has been marketing.


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

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Default 07-17-2017, 09:13 PM

Hot off the press. A new development..

Chris@VargasTurboTech- "As far as unique parts, we own the design on the compressor housings, the compressor wheels, the turbine wheel, the journal bearings, but not the turbine housings (I misspoke about that earlier and want to be clear about it)."

Another WHOOPSIE over at VTT! "WHOOPS I misspoke, t'was a bad post-it note, bad phone connection, an otherwise honest secretarial mixup!". Now they need to say how the housings are inferior China junk, with the absolute worst internal wastegates available in the junk aftermarket and we will be settled.

Tony- you know how you jump into everyones thread and talk ****. Well here is your karma bud. Chris knows what I'm talking about. xoxoxoxoxoxo.


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 07-17-2017 at 09:25 PM..
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