N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion
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Chris@VargasTurboTech Chris@VargasTurboTech is offline
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Default 07-17-2017, 09:29 PM

Rob,

I've made an honest effort to leave you and your issues alone. This was my screw up, from the dimensions to owning the design and I'm eating my hat on that. This wasn't VTT, this wasn't Tony, it was me. It's not often I screw up like that and it's not very palatable to me. As I wrote before, I disagree with anything else you have to say and your conclusions. While I am embarrassed at my screw up, the wrongs on my part have been righted everywhere I wrote something incorrect.

Since my work is done, I don't see how interacting with you here is beneficial or useful.

If anyone has direct questions, same as always, shoot me an email chris@vargasturbo.com and I'll help drive any problems you have to resolution.

Chris


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Default 07-17-2017, 09:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech
Rob,

I've made an honest effort to leave you and your issues alone. This was my screw up, from the dimensions to owning the design and I'm eating my hat on that. This wasn't VTT, this wasn't Tony, it was me. It's not often I screw up like that and it's not very palatable to me. As I wrote before, I disagree with anything else you have to say and your conclusions. While I am embarrassed at my screw up, the wrongs on my part have been righted everywhere I wrote something incorrect.

Since my work is done, I don't see how interacting with you here is beneficial or useful.

If anyone has direct questions, same as always, shoot me an email chris@vargasturbo.com and I'll help drive any problems you have to resolution.

Chris
Yes. If you want to be privately told a hundred piles of shiiiiiaaattttt, email this secretary so he can mix up his post-its in private.


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.
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iminhell1 iminhell1 is offline
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Default 07-18-2017, 02:33 AM

Hey Rob, I don't want that silicon intake anymore.
I did, because you where one of the guys who didn't get into pissing matches (as bad as Tony). This thread ruined that for you in my eyes.

And I wouldn't take free parts from Tony. What an azzhole he is.


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Default 07-18-2017, 04:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iminhell1
Hey Rob, I don't want that silicon intake anymore.
I did, because you where one of the guys who didn't get into pissing matches (as bad as Tony). This thread ruined that for you in my eyes.

And I wouldn't take free parts from Tony. What an azzhole he is.
Azzhole is correct and this is a large chunk of well deserved karma.

This thread is worth its weight in gold to us, not sure if even selling 1,000 pieces of silicone would be equivalent. Quite frankly it is priceless as principle is more important to us than the mighty dollar.

Also we do not consider this a "pissing match" at all, we consider it clearing up a very bogus marketing campaign (that has gone on for many months) and attempting to hold a "greasy" vendor accountable for their marketing charades while deceiving the public.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, but will keep the rest in the back pocket for another time.


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 07-18-2017 at 05:16 AM..
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ShocknAwe ShocknAwe is offline
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Default 07-18-2017, 06:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
This is only the tip of the iceberg, but will keep the rest in the back pocket for another time.
If the information is charitably given on behalf of the welfare of the community, you ought to disclose what you know.


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lukas lukas is offline
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Default 07-18-2017, 09:13 AM

Mayweather and McGregor sound like BFF after you come out of VTT and RB clash. If you guys decide to fight let me know I will definitely buy a ticket. Now what I understood from your two page feud was that VTT decided to go with a new cast iron manifold from China (vs refurbished cast stainless Japanese manifold) with thicker walls and .05" smaller ID after merging point. From that I assume that the new manifold has worse performance but better durability therefore it would be a downgrade for my platform but this is only a speculation in between 2 pages of other speculations without any real data



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Default 07-18-2017, 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukas
Mayweather and McGregor sound like BFF after you come out of VTT and RB clash. If you guys decide to fight let me know I will definitely buy a ticket. Now what I understood from your two page feud was that VTT decided to go with a new cast iron manifold from China (vs refurbished cast stainless Japanese manifold) with thicker walls and .05" smaller ID after merging point. From that I assume that the new manifold has worse performance but better durability therefore it would be a downgrade for my platform but this is only a speculation in between 2 pages of other speculations without any real data
You are correct on most all points. However we HIGHLY doubt there would be better durability in a very cheap chinese cast iron housing over the OEM stainless cast housing. Additionally the OEM manifold (made by Boysen) is not actually cast, it is a much higher quality double walled insulated air gap design, which is also costly but can not be compared to when it comes to retaining heat and reducing weight. While it is not critical those china cast manifolds are extremely heavy to ~10lbs more per set. The stainless cast housings are "thin wall", as they can be due to superior metallurgical qualities, so they have weight on their side and are actually quite a bit better than one would think internally vs. the thick wall cast iron options.

In post #1 there is a link (first one) provided that goes into the development of the N54 turbos, they are literally cast from the best high heat austenitic Stainless steel available (to withstand up to 1050*C). We had the metallurgical analysis performed on them in 2010, as our upgrade process involved welding, so we know what the material is most comparable to and it is NOT cheap stuff. Now in the next week or two we will be processing these China housings with the Xrf Analyzer as well to get an idea of what they really consist of metallurgically. They could be either "really bad" or "good enough", but it is doubtful they will be "excellent" such as the OEM's.

As we've processed over 1,500 of the OEM housings over the past 6 years (most having been produced from 2006-2008) and the only damaged units we have found were from handling damage. So the OEM housings are rock solid as far as durability is concerned, proven through and through, basically bullet proof.


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 07-18-2017 at 09:41 AM..
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Default 07-18-2017, 10:20 AM

So it looks like Mitsubishi actually bent these manifolds out of sheet metal instead of casting it. Rob do you know why they call it double-walled and what grade SS do they use for it?



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Default 07-18-2017, 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukas
So it looks like Mitsubishi actually bent these manifolds out of sheet metal instead of casting it. Rob do you know why they call it double-walled and what grade SS do they use for it?
MHI cast the turbine housings out of a high heat Stainless steel. Boysen fabricated the double wall air gap manifolds out of a high heat Stainless Steel. They were then welded together, making a complete unit.

The OEM materials are closest to a 310 Stainless Steel per the Xrf analyzer. This is a very expensive and hard to find material, it has been painful every time we have to buy a 3" diameter ~6' rod of it to make our turbine housing rings to weld on (to convert them to TD04).

Double wall insulated air gap is a method of construction that is expensive to produce; however as there is an inner layer of sheet metal AND an outer layer of sheet metal, separated by an "air gap" (meaning they don't touch one another aside for at the seams)... heat is retained VERY well internally into the "air medium" towards the outer plate. This type of construction serves a purpose akin of ceramic coatings but on steroids, which is why we've always said to not waste $$$ on ceramic coatings on these units. You can search around google for more "pros" and "cons" on this construction method, but the only real "con" is cost to produce. Boysen constructs these manifolds and they are very high end, more on them here:
http://boysen-online.de/en/innovations/products/


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 07-18-2017 at 10:43 AM..
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Default 07-18-2017, 11:14 AM

Yeah I imagine 3" dia 6' bar would cost around $800 now..
I understand that this "jacketed" manifold design helps to reduce diffusion but from the picture you posted I only see a single wall and that's what confuses me



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Default 07-18-2017, 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukas
Yeah I imagine 3" dia 6' bar would cost around $800 now..
I understand that this "jacketed" manifold design helps to reduce diffusion but from the picture you posted I only see a single wall and that's what confuses me
Think it is around $1200 shipped but makes close to 100 rings (or 50 sets). The effort of machining the 310 ring itself, and the numerous machining steps around welding it on, is not exactly cheap or easy either. But super high quality product when said and done. NOTE: We could take a cheaper approach and use 304, it'll still weld on using a 309 filler rod, just not our thing to take the cheap route.

Regarding the double wall air gap manifold construction, pretty easy to understand really, perhaps you'd be better off just googling it- tons of reads out there. Good luck.


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 07-18-2017 at 11:35 AM..
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Default 07-18-2017, 12:26 PM

you need a new supplier Rob it should be close to $900 including shipping and taxes btw why don't you use tubing for rings instead of a bar to save on material waste and tool wear? Regarding double wall I understand how it's made I just don't see double wall on your cut picture so I was wondering what walls are double and what walls are single on this manifold, hope that makes sense



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Default 07-18-2017, 01:00 PM

Interesting read. I don't know if you folks noticed but we've been talking about our cast-manifold product development here for a while now. And while we were the first to present the Chinese-made and designed parts used in our F21Bi turbos, I always expected to see those parts in the hands of our competitors.

In fact, the F21Bi turbos are largely a pre-emptive response to what I knew others would be doing. As soon as these "ChinaFrame" turbine housings were offered to us last year, I knew we needed to immediately direct development efforts using it.

Now, I've not been paying the closest attention to everything our competitors are saying about the ChinaFrame's provenance, but I was a bit dismayed to see one of them claim involvement in it when I knew they were not. This put me in an unpleasant quandary about what to say when my customers asked. You see, as an expert in Chinese turbo manufacturing I knew where those parts are from. I'm glad to see that question is cleared up.

I coined the term "ChinaFrame" for a reason. For years I've seen people boasting about their "Stock Frame" records. Well, now we have a new standard. And here's the current record based on it.




Of course this record will quickly fall. Soon FrankenTurbo will have a large number of addional people testing with our F21Bi turbos. Others are already in the game as well. And the truth is the ChinaFrame is actually superior to stock for more reasons than just its durability. It has a better-designed collector into the turbine volute. And the turbine housing has a larger Area Ratio. So any numbers based on the old, recycled OEM parts used by our competitors are going to be quickly beaten. The ChinaFrame is a better part for performance than the OEM TD03. Period.

I want to make the point that FrankenTurbo has been in the business of designing turbos based on Chinese manufacturing for nearly ten years now. We've seen others come to market attempting to copy our business strategy. And we've seen them go. Because we're better at this than anyone else. So like it or not, Chinese products are the future of this platform and all others. And you can be sure FrankenTurbo will be leading.

Thanks

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


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Default 07-18-2017, 01:15 PM

Nice thoughts and would expect no less of a retort from the industry "Chinaframe" leader, and best of luck with your new platform Chinaframe competitors!

Rob


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Default 07-18-2017, 03:00 PM

Well, I refrained from commenting until I had time to fully read the paper and look at some other stuff...Earlier this month, I read an interesting paper on detonation in current production turbocharged GDI engines that was released in the journal of Progress in Energy and Combustion Science (you might need credentials to access): http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...60128516300764

This paper answered questions I had concerning the N54 platform related to tuning, combustion burn rates, and the methodology used to extract power from GDI engines. Rob, your link to the technical paper for the exhaust manifolds made me immediately think about what I have been reading in this paper. Specifically exhaust gas temperature as it has always been the determining factor in keeping a turbo happy on a gasoline engine. No real point here, other than it's just interesting that as OEM design constraints tighten when related to efficiency the direct outcome is overall power per fuel unit is increased. I always like to keep that idea in mind when mildly modifying a vehicle. I learned a long time ago to not work backwards by undoing all of that OEM development work...

Now granted, this MHI OEM design is more geared towards emissions standard constraints related to engine warm-up and transient operation it is still quite relevant to the aftermarket. And I think most are missing this point. Heat is good on a turbo engine. Heat spools the turbo, keeps it spooled. I'm not going to go into specifics...having a housing that warms quicker, keeps more heat energy in the spent gases(not rejecting it to manifolds/head/atmosphere) to spool the turbo is a desirable advantage. Having that same housing and turbine wheel made from superior materials is also an advantage when trying to extract max average power as now you have increased a known hard limit. I've never liked the big and heavy cast turbo manifolds because I know how long it takes for cast steel/iron materials to come up to operating temp...then how long it takes to cool them down. The OEM manifolds aren't something I'd replace on my engine unless it's with an identical design but larger plenum area, and only then because I require it. I've yet to see any reason I'd require it. I'm still waiting for pre-turbine exhaust pressure data for the N54, or maybe I just haven't looked enough. In my defense, this is a secondary project. Point is, just because something looks small doesn't necessarily mean it's not supposed to be there or doesn't work well. You can read that as, if you don't understand CFD then you should probably just stick with OEM on this platform unless you're building something crazy. Now, I'm not saying that the "Chinaframe" isn't making power, it is, but that is through no merit of their design. You can thank the engineers who developed an awesome platform, and of course the turbo!

Put a turbo on anything and it'll eat. How much it'll eat and how much is it leaving on the table uneaten? Now that's the question. To me, switching from the OEM design housings, which were specifically designed for fast warm-up, proper insulation, durability and increased (and sustained) higher temperatures, isn't ideal.


I'm probably reading a SAE Paper...or in the garage.
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DreadFox DreadFox is offline
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Default 07-18-2017, 03:25 PM

FrankenTurbo, that's quite a bold statement concerning Chinese products. Chinese products have their place, and do serve their purpose but to state that they are the future? Well, I'm not so sure about that. Maybe when your goal is 300-800hp to the tire, but for some of us building rides well beyond that power level, U.S. machined/prepped parts is the way to go. Maybe you meant to say that Chinese parts machined and finished in the U.S. is the future, that has a bit more stock than the blanket statement of Chinese products are the future for this platform and all others. My main play toy had a $300 Chinese turbo on it until I could squirrel away enough cash to build it the way I wanted, and now it don't have no Chinese turbo! Which brings me to the real point of my reply, $3000 for Chinese made turbos? WTF? $1500? WTF? Hahaha!!! $699? Okay, but that better include shipping...

Either way, the way I see it is this Chinese fully cast manifold is a thing because the tooling in these Chinese turbo factories doesn't support this OEM technology at the price point for those looking to make some money. It's simple as that, it's a cost saving measure. It's the easy way to offer an "aftermarket" turbo head unit without putting in real work. Which is fine and all as long as that cost savings is passed down to the consumer, and power goals are kept respectable. I'm not so sure that's what is going on here. It's a shame. But you know, not my problem. I could be totally wrong.

Side note, what's with the dyno curve you posted? Looks funky, and not cool. Specifically 3300-4400ish RPM then again 5500-6200ish RPM, what's going on there? I hate dyno graphs without context like lambda, manifold pressure, EGT, timing, baseline curves, general engine specs...cool watermark though.


I'm probably reading a SAE Paper...or in the garage.
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Default 07-18-2017, 04:41 PM

DreadFox,

The forums truly need more like you onboard, and glad you actually took the time to read the tech docs. Thanks for chiming in.

Rob


See www.rbturbo.com for N54 Twin Turbo Bolt-On upgrades, or contact directly 314-630-8950 rob.rbturbo@gmail.com for a price quote.
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Cynical Cynical is offline
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Default 07-18-2017, 09:07 PM

Have you even produced a single set of turbos that doesnt smoke? In the 10 years I've been on this platform Ive never seen such a high failure rate of anything else.
Rob your own test mules and record holders have jumped ship. You cant even give turbos away How sad is that? Now this.

You should design your own manifold since your sooo worried about someone else's products. Oh I forgot you are concerned For the community ��
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Cynical Cynical is offline
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Default 07-18-2017, 09:09 PM

I mean tell us some more bout how a 2 inch inlet wont fit on stock turbos.

Just do us all a favor-
Let a life Rob.
Stop trying to hinder growth. Good or bad.
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Default 07-18-2017, 09:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical
Have you even produced a single set of turbos that doesnt smoke? In the 10 years I've been on this platform Ive never seen such a high failure rate of anything else.
Rob your own test mules and record holders have jumped ship. You cant even give turbos away How sad is that? Now this.

You should design your own manifold since your sooo worried about someone else's products. Oh I forgot you are concerned For the community ��
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical
I mean tell us some more bout how a 2 inch inlet wont fit on stock turbos.

Just do us all a favor-
Let a life Rob.
Stop trying to hinder growth. Good or bad.
Please, tell me more!


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n5418102 n5418102 is offline
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Default 07-22-2017, 02:53 PM

this thread now got my attention
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500hp500tq 500hp500tq is offline
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Default +1 - 07-24-2017, 10:25 AM

Pretty much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical
Lets point out what this really is. Robs sales have plummeted in the past year since we have several options for hybrids. Mmp cant produce turbos fast enough for the demand. Vargas is refreshing their whole offering .. (ooops forgot Pure and their blemish free record)

And heres rob with consistently smoking turbos. Your “evo”line or whatever is a complete flop. You really have nothing to offer this community anymore except pcv delete kits. Literally YEARS of milking us with these crapshoot hybrids. Some work, most fail quickly.
This is the result....
You making snowflake posts to put yourself in the spotlight, just like the whole 2 inch inlet debate with Tony.



This nonsense is beyond old Rob.
If you’re so upset about someone elses product and profits then make a better product. THE END.



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