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Default JB4 Port Injection Meth Setup & Discusion Thread - 05-20-2018, 05:13 PM

Hey guys,

As more people are running port injection meth now, we need a dedicated thread with basic how-to directions, best practices, etc.

In addition I have some planned changes on the JB4 end for mapping on these kits so it will be useful to have everyone in the same place to evaluate logs.

I'll just enter a few notes here and then we'll modify the post as needed. In addition we could use some JB4 PI meth logs posted to evaluate and refine the safety systems and mapping.

N54:

We suggest using the BMS PI controller. The orange wire on the controller will go to an automotive relay to trigger the WMI pump. The JB4 #15 will get the PI controller white signal wire which will let the JB4 know the fuel injectors are running properly. Meth flow scaling should be set to 99.

If equipped with an FSB from a previous JB4 meth integration you'll remove it.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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135idct 135idct is offline
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Default 05-20-2018, 05:27 PM

tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it
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Default 05-20-2018, 06:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135idct
tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it
If that's the case, Terry might have to think about designing a bigger tank that will work well in the trunk without taking up to much space.


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Default 05-20-2018, 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135idct
tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it
What size tank?


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Default 05-20-2018, 08:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS

N54:

We suggest using the BMS PI controller. The orange wire on the controller will go to an automotive relay to trigger the WMI pump. The JB4 #15 will get the PI controller white signal wire which will let the JB4 know the fuel injectors are running properly. Meth flow scaling should be set to 99.

If equipped with an FSB from a previous JB4 meth integration you'll remove it.
Hi Terry,

Could you expand on this a little? As far as my investigation went it was the FSB wire that was supposed to stay in JB4 PIN# 15 once you're sure the injectors work fine. Because of meth safeties as far as I'm aware. Are you re-thinking the logic? Because I'm not sure if you're suggesting to get rid of the FSB wire, or the FSB itself? Will PI controller be able to trigger the meth pump, while maintaining the safeties and controlling PI? That would be awesome. Not sure if I'm getting the idea, but if I am, will there be any new hardware required to get PI to do all of this awesome stuff?

Another thing, it may be useful to post JB4 BEF suggestions, as most of the people who install meth PI do not have access to E85 and will probably run upgraded turbos. Maybe a specific meth PI BEF needs to be presented to the public? Or should they just use hybrid turbo E85 BEF?

I'd love to send some logs for evaluation, too bad my hardware is still in the boxes and will have to wait for another 2 months until the car is equipped.

There's probably too much in my post and I don't know if I managed to keep your attention, but I really think those are all valid points and questions. It's just the start of this thread, but it's also a start of better times for drivers in the UK and a large portion of Europe, who do not have access to E85.
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Default 05-21-2018, 07:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skirmozas
Hi Terry,

Could you expand on this a little? As far as my investigation went it was the FSB wire that was supposed to stay in JB4 PIN# 15 once you're sure the injectors work fine. Because of meth safeties as far as I'm aware. Are you re-thinking the logic? Because I'm not sure if you're suggesting to get rid of the FSB wire, or the FSB itself? Will PI controller be able to trigger the meth pump, while maintaining the safeties and controlling PI? That would be awesome. Not sure if I'm getting the idea, but if I am, will there be any new hardware required to get PI to do all of this awesome stuff?

Another thing, it may be useful to post JB4 BEF suggestions, as most of the people who install meth PI do not have access to E85 and will probably run upgraded turbos. Maybe a specific meth PI BEF needs to be presented to the public? Or should they just use hybrid turbo E85 BEF?

I'd love to send some logs for evaluation, too bad my hardware is still in the boxes and will have to wait for another 2 months until the car is equipped.

There's probably too much in my post and I don't know if I managed to keep your attention, but I really think those are all valid points and questions. It's just the start of this thread, but it's also a start of better times for drivers in the UK and a large portion of Europe, who do not have access to E85.
Really would luv to know this too
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Default 05-21-2018, 08:07 AM

Huh!? You must have a leak. Mine with the 550cc injectors at 90% IDC and the 2.3G tank uses LESS then my single nozzle setup used. Lasts forever, even after 20 1/2 mile pulls up to 160mph I still had 1/2 tank left lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by 135idct
tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it


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#PURETURBOS
#FUELIT
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Default 05-21-2018, 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skirmozas
Hi Terry,

Could you expand on this a little?
Yes we're going to rethink how we do this and standardize it. Meth PI has a lot more possible failure points so we need to rethink how the safety is setup. While the FSB pump current signal adds one layer of safety I think we can accomplish something similar on the software end, using the PI controller injector safety to cover some of the physical failure points. The suggested implementation will be to remove the FSB all together and let the PI controller run the pump and injectors. Then with stetings on the FSB we'll layer in additional software safeties such as checking fuel trims more closely to ensure we're getting the desired flow.

On the BEF yes we'll customize one at some point if needed but for now use RACE. Meth PI and traditional meth are very similar from a tuning perspective.

When you have logs post them in this thread and we'll use it to flesh out the safety settings and JB4 programming.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 05-22-2018, 01:38 AM

good to know.

so for now, PI signal is still the feedback from injectors only.
But in the future, we won't have to monitor the FSB anymore, as meth pump is generally less reliable than PI injectors.

In the past, I've seen PI signal sending good feedback (injectors opening), whereas Meth pump was not flowing at all, this is why I always suggest my customers to monitor FSB instead of PI.


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Default 05-22-2018, 02:40 AM

Worth making this a sticky and having something similar in the N55 section? Appreciate there's similarities but some N55 guys don't look here.


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Default 05-22-2018, 06:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
The suggested implementation will be to remove the FSB all together and let the PI controller run the pump and injectors. Then with stetings on the FSB we'll layer in additional software safeties such as checking fuel trims more closely to ensure we're getting the desired flow.
.

single turbo with Pi kit and also bms meth kit.
but couldn't use map 8.
map 7 is good. but need little more WHP.
so tried to chage meth safety and meth trigger to use the map8 . but didn't seem to work it.

attached log.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 2018-05-20 22_50_13 Map_7.csv (46.1 KB, 68 views)
File Type: csv 2018-05-20 22_50_54 Map_8.csv (19.2 KB, 65 views)
File Type: csv 2018-05-22 16_35_51 Map_8.csv (18.7 KB, 67 views)

Last edited by 07335i; 05-22-2018 at 09:00 AM..
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Default 05-23-2018, 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07335i
single turbo with Pi kit and also bms meth kit.
but couldn't use map 8.
map 7 is good. but need little more WHP.
so tried to chage meth safety and meth trigger to use the map8 . but didn't seem to work it.

attached log.
Is the white PI controller wire attached to JB4?


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 05-23-2018, 10:49 AM

Hi All:

I am installing a Black Market PI system with stage 3 fuel pumps. I was running previously the regular BMS meth system.

In order to have the new Black Market PI system properly connected by the technician who is doing this, we will be supplying meth to the PI system through the meth pump and not through the second LPFP. Having this in mind, what cables from the BMS JB4 Port Injection controller do I need to connect to have the system working properly (To have the meth pump activated)??? There are two yellow cables, one thicker than the other. The thinner yellow one goes connected to pin 9? The thicker one does not need to be connected?

The technician who is working on the car has told me that the thicker yellow cable have 12 volts all the time. Is this is normal??

Thanks in advance for your advises.


2012 335is DCT. 654 WHP VTT turbos 93 oct pump gas + Meth. Trebila tuned.

707 whp E50-E55 with PI. Trebila tuned
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Default 05-23-2018, 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMVela
Hi All:

I am installing a Black Market PI system with stage 3 fuel pumps. I was running previously the regular BMS meth system.

In order to have the new Black Market PI system properly connected by the technician who is doing this, we will be supplying meth to the PI system through the meth pump and not through the second LPFP. Having this in mind, what cables from the BMS JB4 Port Injection controller do I need to connect to have the system working properly (To have the meth pump activated)??? There are two yellow cables, one thicker than the other. The thinner yellow one goes connected to pin 9? The thicker one does not need to be connected?

The technician who is working on the car has told me that the thicker yellow cable have 12 volts all the time. Is this is normal??

Thanks in advance for your advises.
The thicker wire is a trigger wire, that should be connected to the relay then to the meth pump.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 05-23-2018, 11:05 AM

Understood!!

But why the cable have 12 volts all the time?? Is this normal???

Does I need to completely remove the FSB??

If yes and since I haven't disconnect it yet, this is the reason of the thicker yellow cable having 12 volts all the time?

Thanks


2012 335is DCT. 654 WHP VTT turbos 93 oct pump gas + Meth. Trebila tuned.

707 whp E50-E55 with PI. Trebila tuned
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Default 05-23-2018, 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Is the white PI controller wire attached to JB4?
yes i did.

Last edited by 07335i; 05-25-2018 at 09:06 AM..
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Default 05-23-2018, 11:36 AM

Terry:

I know you are all busy, but I need some help, to figure this out. Car has,been seating on the shop since yesterday because of this situation. I understand that this is not your fault, but I will like our assistance in this matter to see if I can solve this issue before the day end.

Thanks


2012 335is DCT. 654 WHP VTT turbos 93 oct pump gas + Meth. Trebila tuned.

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Default 05-23-2018, 12:14 PM

Photo of bms pi controller? Not sure which wire you are referring to.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 05-23-2018, 12:42 PM

Terry

I do not know how to bring the photos to this thread. Photos were sent to your email.


2012 335is DCT. 654 WHP VTT turbos 93 oct pump gas + Meth. Trebila tuned.

707 whp E50-E55 with PI. Trebila tuned
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Default 05-23-2018, 01:46 PM

Some genius here decided instead of orange wire to use a thicker yellow wire last batch. Thin wire with DSUB pin goes to #9 for N54, and thicker wire provides up to 1 amp to trigger a relay to run your meth pump. It may have 12v at rest via a meter on the loose wire but would be almost no current.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 05-23-2018, 01:59 PM

Terry, I've tuned maybe 20 PMI, always monitoring the FSB instead of PI kit, for more safety, so I don't get why you tell to not use FSB.
can you elaborate ?


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Default 05-23-2018, 05:10 PM

Terry, when hou have chance please advise. Car still on the shop upon the issue is solved. Need to take the car out, PLEASE assist us on this as soon as possible.

Thanks


2012 335is DCT. 654 WHP VTT turbos 93 oct pump gas + Meth. Trebila tuned.

707 whp E50-E55 with PI. Trebila tuned
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Default 05-23-2018, 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMVela
Terry, when hou have chance please advise. Car still on the shop upon the issue is solved. Need to take the car out, PLEASE assist us on this as soon as possible.

Thanks
Not clear to me what your issue is. You asked which wire was what and we informed you on that. What's the problem now?


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 05-23-2018, 05:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
Terry, I've tuned maybe 20 PMI, always monitoring the FSB instead of PI kit, for more safety, so I don't get why you tell to not use FSB.
can you elaborate ?
There are several failure points in a setup like this. Main ones:

1) Pump doesn't turn on or fluid is empty. e.g. pump pressure.
2) Fuel injectors don't open at all or just one specific injector fails to open.

The FSB would help cover issue 1 but it can't detect the injectors not opening. The PI controller can detect injectors not opening but can't verify pump pressure.

Thinking it over I think the best and easiest solution is to ditch the FSB all together in these implementations. The PI controller is then feeding injector information in to the JB4, and we can use fuel trim checks of trims higher than expected and bank to bank trim variances, to quickly spot the same issues the FSB would be spotting.


Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 05-23-2018, 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
There are several failure points in a setup like this. Main ones:

1) Pump doesn't turn on or fluid is empty. e.g. pump pressure.
2) Fuel injectors don't open at all or just one specific injector fails to open.

The FSB would help cover issue 1 but it can't detect the injectors not opening. The PI controller can detect injectors not opening but can't verify pump pressure.

Thinking it over I think the best and easiest solution is to ditch the FSB all together in these implementations. The PI controller is then feeding injector information in to the JB4, and we can use fuel trim checks of trims higher than expected and bank to bank trim variances, to quickly spot the same issues the FSB would be spotting.
I have been on the fence to go PI.will be watching for some results.
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