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Default Quad Exhaust that gains power - 07-17-2013, 09:42 PM

I been debating putting on a quad exhaust for a while now.

Around various forums, its seems everyone says "don't go quad, it will lose power" . Now I agree when it comes to the Umnitza and Supersprint quads that there is no way that can gain power. Those companies snake a pipe around to the other side from the muffler.

I been researching for weeks for any 535s with two ***** coming from the ********* that stay as two ***** going to the mufflers. I found a couple but no real info about the system they used.

I saw one on Youtube that had the RD Sport system like the picture I attached.

Personally, I think that a properly built quad system can't lose power. AE makes a quad for the 335 and they gain power. So why not the 5?
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Default 07-18-2013, 11:19 AM

No one has done quads that actually gained power?

I will do it and report my findings. I'm going with magnaflows parts. I am still uncertain about the size and if I will go without an x pipe. I am basing my system off the AE exhaust system that is available for the 335i.


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Default 07-19-2013, 11:27 AM

With larger diameter piping, any n54/n55 should gain power. Turbocharged engines, in general, usually jump big when you free up the exhaust (whether *********, catback, single/dual outlet, etc.). Obviously results will vary depending on engine, vehicle, other mods, etc. but still should see at least some gain by opening up the exhaust, whether quad or not.

That said, the most efficient route would be a 3"+ diameter catback piping to a single outet with a pass-through muffler.

now, you will probably lose off-boost response/power, but the turbos will spool sooner in the rpm range and should spool faster, along with more power on-boost. But with how small/quick-spooling the stock turbos are, even with no mods on the n54, it should not be an issue or deterrant.


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Default 07-19-2013, 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessIsMore
With larger diameter piping, any n54/n55 should gain power. Turbocharged engines, in general, usually jump big when you free up the exhaust (whether *********, catback, single/dual outlet, etc.). Obviously results will vary depending on engine, vehicle, other mods, etc. but still should see at least some gain by opening up the exhaust, whether quad or not.

That said, the most efficient route would be a 3"+ diameter catback piping to a single outet with a pass-through muffler.

now, you will probably lose off-boost response/power, but the turbos will spool sooner in the rpm range and should spool faster, along with more power on-boost. But with how small/quick-spooling the stock turbos are, even with no mods on the n54, it should not be an issue or deterrant.
Thanks for the response. I actually started this thread to refute the whole quads make you lose power crap. Dummy quads, yes. True quads. NO.

As for 3" fitting all the way through, I will attempt it. I was hoping to find a concrete example like pictures. There was a member who had a true quad system named 535ipower. He used circular mufflers probably due to the lack of space on the passanger side of the car. I will update as I get parts in.


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Default 07-21-2013, 02:04 PM

I have been doing some reading on dual exhausts and this link over on 5series is the only one that looks promising and not overly expensive, however, the test cases have not been on 535, only 545 and 550. I feel this is not only a cosmetics exhaust like the Umnitza ones and theoretically should work.

http://forums.5series.net/e60-parts-...0/#post1319162


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Default 07-21-2013, 07:44 PM

Sweet find purin. He got the Magnaflow Tru X flow resonator and the two mufflers out back.

I searched on 5 Series forum too for ideas. Mostly V8s do the true quads and they don't lose power either.

The M5 does not have the spare tire we have so it has a muffler equally as big on the other side. We are very limited. I saw another thread where the oval mufflers were hung vertically as opposed to horizontal. 535ipower used he circular magnaflows and hung them with no problems. Based on that, I am debating oval vs circular vs *****. I am going to go with 3" of mandrel bent piping, 100 cell high flow cats, Magnaflow rear sections. I may add resonators depending on the noise level.

I will post a thread with pics when its getting done. I will also dyno before and after and try to keep all conditions the same so we can see if there really is power to gain by upgrading the exhaust.


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Last edited by Pitch Black; 07-21-2013 at 07:54 PM.. Reason: Claifying
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Default 07-22-2013, 01:14 PM

I have done a fair amount of research on this topic, Quad's are not possible on a 535i or a 550i with an ARS..

I had to sacrifice the quad option, i had the shipment for RPI GT race exhaust come in today..

Eisenmann has 100% confirmed that their quad's will not lose power but they only fit in with E60 cars without ARS.


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Default 07-22-2013, 01:34 PM

I thought you could just re-locate the air pump to the trunk? I'm pretty sure this has been done...


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Default 07-22-2013, 02:17 PM

Eisenmann also uses that wrap around design. I am not a fan of the abrupt branching out of the pipe. I'm going more for the 335i design with the seperate ***** all the way to the tips.

As for the ARS, my car isn't equipped with it so I won't have this problem but the added parts do get in the way. I am not sure if its only the air pump.

I attached 535ipower's pictures to show the clearance around the spare tire well. As well as the finished product. Look at how tight that clearance is on the right. If that muffler was any bigger, it would have been on the spare tire well. and look at it in relation to the rear. It just barely made it!

The main hangup is the only the rear sections you can use on the passanger side. This is why RD sport hung it vertically. Eisenmann, Umnitza and Supersprint just delete the passanger side muffler all together.

I thought about running only 2 resonators on each side and ***** out to the rear but I am still looking for sound lips from the 335s to see how that sounds.
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Default 07-22-2013, 06:47 PM

Just run a dumby pipe to the passenger side and get some matching tips. That's what I did. I tried the Magnaflow single muffler with dual outlets. Droned really bad and lost power. Don't waste your money.
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Default 07-23-2013, 10:05 AM

Regarding ARS, I would think since the stock exhaust ***** can clear the swaybar between the ARS, it should be able to fit on the passenger side and snake it past the 5.5in clearance between spare/battery like 535ipower's photo. You can put the muffler/resonator by the rear diff to give more space by the battery/bumper. I will look around again but I believe true duals should fit. I don't know about power sustainability but most claim that its a power gain.

You can see the hanger mount position and clearly see this car has ARS and got it installed.




Drone doesn't seem to be a problem from what they are saying with the built in X-pipe http://www.youtube.com/embed/_Izb-8scszA

Heat by the battery may be a problem but no one has said anything and the plastic shield may need to be modified (trimmed) to fit back on.

I rather pay $600 for a real dual system than a looks only from Umnitza if everything else is the same (looks, no power loss, no drone, cost)


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Default 07-23-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hp jnkey
Just run a dumby pipe to the passenger side and get some matching tips. That's what I did. I tried the Magnaflow single muffler with dual outlets. Droned really bad and lost power. Don't waste your money.
I am not knocking it but its not my style. I mod for function first but looks do matter. So my quad looking exhaust must be a quad exhaust. Further more, I am willing to bet my quads will gain more horsepower than any of the axle backs or *** backs available. I don't call that a waste of money. The key to not losing power is the design. I am applying everything I learned from modding in the past and also doing research to make sure I don't get any negative results. One key thing I am realizing is that the Magnaflows can be chambered and therefore not straight depending on what part you go with.

Right now, I am even looking into resonated tips. I thought about cats, resonator, resonated tips as a possibility.

Purin, that was a sweet find. I saw that on 5 Series a while back. I am leaning towards running *****. I will coat them also to keep it cool near the battery. For added safety, I will be installing a heat shield.


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Default 10-18-2013, 12:55 AM

I am running a Meisterschaft GTS exhaust. Would you say that the stock 2011 F10 N55 Msport exhaust would provide more HP/Power gains than the Meisterschaft or just that a true dual pipe exhaust would be better than the Meisterschaft. I ask because I had a BMW tech tell me that the turbo may not be getting enough back pressure becasue I have ******* down ***** and the high flow exhaust.

I had planned upon Dyno'ing the car with the Meisterschaft and then installing the stock exhaust and seeing if there was a difference.


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Default 10-18-2013, 07:28 PM

It's been one company spouting all this "you'll lose power" BS on one forum and what happens is 5 people read it and then they take it as gospel and pass it on and then 25 people see their post and THEY pass it on and all of the sudden it's just an accepted truth that a quad setup loses power even though 99% of the people that are telling you it will lose power can't tell you why or are only regurgitating what they heard other's say. I won't name the company that posted this but this is what they posted:

Quote:
we recommend not to put a quad setup on the non-M E60s. typically a quad setup will result in a loss in power. best exhaust setup with dyno-proven power would be the RPI exhaust if interested.
And this was my response:

Quote:
Do you have ANY data other than personal opinion to back this up? You sell the RPI so you'll have to forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical of you suggesting that a quad exhaust will lose power while an RPI won't and then there's the fact that there's just no data to back up your claim at all.

Most people running quad setups are splicing them into the stock exhaust at a point very near the rear of the system where exhaust temperature is low and velocity is at it's slowest, arguably the area that would have the least affect on power (unless you were further restricting here which you're not), not to mention that the way it's being routed doesn't add ANY capacity at all to the system. The air will just choose the path of least resistance. There should be zero affect on power unless the stock system is restrictive back there in which case there will be a slight gain.

You'd be much more likely to affect power or substantially change the power band with an improperly sized down pipe but this far back in the exhaust, as long as you're not too small, being too big just doesn't matter. It just doesn't pass the sniff test and nowhere but this forum is this ever mentioned. If anything it would bump the power band up slightly but again, for the purposes of a quad setup and the way 95% of them are installed, that's just not a concern.

Unless you have first hand data to suggest otherwise, I'm going to suggest that your statement is inaccurate because I do have first hand experience in the form of developing performance parts and in the form of installing a quad setup on my own car.
So really just don't worry about it. You won't lose power unless you're going to small, even if you just run a 1 in/ 2 out muffler and route over to the other side which is what I've done.

And since I'm a shameless attention whore, here's my setup, complete with the eBay carbon fiber which is surprisingly nice.


Last edited by Mike_K; 10-18-2013 at 07:35 PM..
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Default 10-18-2013, 07:49 PM

The only concrete reason I've ever heard, and it came from a BMW tech, was that too large an exhaust would reduce back pressure on the turbo to the point that it would affect performance. I actually posted re: this suggestion and one of the responses said that small OEM turbos generally create their own back pressure. Whether any of this is true or not I cannot say but I was going to try to dyno with my Meisterschaft and then with the stock exhaust and see if there was any difference either way. By far the general consensus from what I've heard is the less resistance the better.


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Default 10-18-2013, 08:22 PM

I am sure it is possible to design true quads on a 535, but I doubt it will achieve any performance gains over a twin set-up. The 335 is crossed, but then runs 2 single ***** off the resonator (I believe.)
I guess the main achievement is in aesthetics.
Just be careful of drone.
I am sure you won't lose power, but I sure hope you gain some if you go through all this trouble.
I have driven hpjnkey's car and it has a nice deep engine note without any obnoxious drone. Reminds me of a 550, just a tad milder.
Mike K, that's a nice tight look. M6 rims?


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Default 10-18-2013, 08:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
I am sure it is possible to design true quads on a 535, but I doubt it will achieve any performance gains over a twin set-up. The 335 is crossed, but then runs 2 single ***** off the resonator (I believe.)
I guess the main achievement is in aesthetics.
Just be careful of drone.
I am sure you won't lose power, but I sure hope you gain some if you go through all this trouble.
I have driven hpjnkey's car and it has a nice deep engine note without any obnoxious drone. Reminds me of a 550, just a tad milder.
Mike K, that's a nice tight look. M6 rims?
Yes, a couple days before Thanksgiving last year I stumbled upon them. Brand new take offs had been sitting in the owner's warehouse for three years. He only wanted $1000 for them and I talked him down to $700 because I was feeling frisky. : One of my best Craigslist pickups ever. For less than the price of two new tires I got 4 new tires and OE M6 rims.

As for the exhaust, I'm not crazy about the way mine sounds. It doesn't droan, has no rasp and burbles on downshifts which is nice but I'm in LA where BMW's are ubiquitous and after hearing 335is's every day I have exhaust envy. I wish I knew what they used because they sound amazing. It's hard to tell it's the same engine.

But yes, it's really 100% aesthetics. Having owned an M5 it would have been hard to go back to the single side exit exhaust so I knew as soon as I bought this car that I'd be converting it.
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Default 10-21-2013, 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitch Black
I been debating putting on a quad exhaust for a while now.

Around various forums, its seems everyone says "don't go quad, it will lose power" . Now I agree when it comes to the Umnitza and Supersprint quads that there is no way that can gain power. Those companies snake a pipe around to the other side from the muffler.

I been researching for weeks for any 535s with two ***** coming from the ********* that stay as two ***** going to the mufflers. I found a couple but no real info about the system they used.

I saw one on Youtube that had the RD Sport system like the picture I attached.

Personally, I think that a properly built quad system can't lose power. AE makes a quad for the 335 and they gain power. So why not the 5?
I read somewhere where a member did a custom setup similar to that above for $175 at his local muffler shop. He cut the mid pipe and added to 2 ***** in its place along with a muffler for the passenger side.

I was looking at going the route he went, but I have the ARS.
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Default 10-21-2013, 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 535_BiTurbo
I read somewhere where a member did a custom setup similar to that above for $175 at his local muffler shop. He cut the mid pipe and added to 2 ***** in its place along with a muffler for the passenger side.

I was looking at going the route he went, but I have the ARS.
I did a lot of search on the quad and since i have an ARS too i had to drop the quad option after speaking to multiple BMW (Exhaust specialist)


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Default 10-21-2013, 03:49 PM

what is ARS?
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Default 10-21-2013, 04:12 PM

Active Roll Stabilization is an active suspension control system designed to reduce body-roll, or lean, while cornering. This improves the vehicle"s suspension geometry (the degree of wheel angle relative to vertical)

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...rformance.aspx


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Default 10-25-2013, 05:47 AM

I have question about quad vs twin/dual. We are all actually talking about twin/dual exhaust with quad tips right?

For piping size, would a 2.5in or 2.25in make a difference in performance for our cars? How does it affect the exhaust flow?

After the first set of OE resonators, I am considering to have either 2.5 or 2.25in piping prior to quad tips (y-tips):
1x magnaflow 11386 2.5" in/out
2x magnaflow 10426 2.5" in/out

or

1x magnaflow 11385 2.25" in/out
2x magnaflow 10425 2.25" in/out

I am thinking for towards 2.5in for less restrictive flow but does it matter with or without DP? I don't have DP but thinking of getting down the road.

thanks


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535_BiTurbo 535_BiTurbo is offline
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Default 10-25-2013, 05:54 AM

What is the stock diameter sized exhaust piping?
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Default 10-25-2013, 11:21 AM

I read it was 2.5 inches merged to 3. I think it's closer to 2.3 tho.


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purin purin is offline
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Default 10-26-2013, 05:27 AM

Sorry guys, so what does that mean? Stock goes from 3" in to 2.5" out or 2.5" to 3" out? I think I remember reading that the OE DP were 2.5" so maybe the later?

So if I go with 2.5" out from the msgnaflow after resonators, it might be too small but definitely better than the 2.25" piping?

Also, is 550i piping location the same as our 535 including spare and battery clearance? I found a used set of 2.5" and considering doing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbu5mSLDRh4

I'm not hating on MikeK but theoretically, pitch's way wouldn't be just looks only right?


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