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codesx codesx is offline
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Default 12-06-2018, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by psblah
yep, but i dont think it does distribute evenly otherwise the trims and trims2 would be identical (as they are with the meth turned off)

That's a little disconcerting for sure.

Sounds more like the first(?) bank is getting the majority of it then?
If so, I would imagine this to be the case whether you used x2 identical or two mixed, given both are typical close together in the CP.

Maybe the further up-stream WM is injected, the less the delta between bank 1 and bank 2 ingestion of the heavier particles?
However it would be delayed introduction, may pool briefly somewhere or have other negative effect if too far back.

I'm wondering if you are just hitting a delivery design limitation.

There are lots her running CP injection, so hopefully they'll provide the necessary info.

** edit ** maybe (safely) trigger the injector while holding it in your hand to ensure it's atomizing well?


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Last edited by codesx; 12-06-2018 at 02:12 PM..
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Default 12-06-2018, 02:33 PM

Run a map without methanol and lets see the trims.

Running different sizes nozzles in the chargepipe does not matter. It is all mixing together then being distributed to each cylinder.


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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 12-07-2018, 01:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Payam @ BMS
Run a map without methanol and lets see the trims.

Running different sizes nozzles in the chargepipe does not matter. It is all mixing together then being distributed to each cylinder.
I already did that before. That's what my logs show!

Payam, not sure if you have been reading this properly or maybe I wasnt too clear but I'll go over it again quick just to make sure we're on the same page!

- i had a strange misfire on 21psi
- logs showed trims and trims2 very different
- did logs again with meth disabled - trims and trims2 were now the same
- I'm using a single nozzle
- the only(Please confirm this?) way this can be true is if the nozzle is not distributing meth evenly across the cylinders.

This last point contradicts your last point, and would also mean if I used different sized injectors would make a different amount of meth going into each cylinder.
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 12-07-2018, 01:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by codesx
That's a little disconcerting for sure.

Sounds more like the first(?) bank is getting the majority of it then?
If so, I would imagine this to be the case whether you used x2 identical or two mixed, given both are typical close together in the CP.

Yep, i agree. One bank (remember it might even be only 1 cylinder as it is an average of 3 cylinders)

Not entirely true, because I only have 1 injector at the moment spraying, it could be half the mixture of air going in is atomised (the opposite side to the injector) with meth, but the side closest is not, having an opposing injector might even this out.

But! (Assumption incoming) Having different sized injectors would make this uneven still as we know that clearly full atomisation across the entire airflow does not occur with a single injector?


Maybe the further up-stream WM is injected, the less the delta between bank 1 and bank 2 ingestion of the heavier particles?
However it would be delayed introduction, may pool briefly somewhere or have other negative effect if too far back.

I agree, that would be ideal, to inject between the turbo and intercooler, but I have what everyone else has, the normal CP thing with an injector plug there.

I'm wondering if you are just hitting a delivery design limitation.

Tbh, I thought this WMI stuff was tried and tested as I'm not the first to use it?

There are lots her running CP injection, so hopefully they'll provide the necessary info.

I'm waiting for someone else to come in and say, yes single injectors don't mix properly - you need two

** edit ** maybe (safely) trigger the injector while holding it in your hand to ensure it's atomizing well?


Yeah I'll give it a go, but it was brand new so the likelihood of a manufacturing issue is quite slim

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Last edited by psblah; 12-07-2018 at 01:16 AM..
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Default 12-07-2018, 07:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by psblah
I already did that before. That's what my logs show!

Payam, not sure if you have been reading this properly or maybe I wasnt too clear but I'll go over it again quick just to make sure we're on the same page!

- i had a strange misfire on 21psi
- logs showed trims and trims2 very different
- did logs again with meth disabled - trims and trims2 were now the same
- I'm using a single nozzle
- the only(Please confirm this?) way this can be true is if the nozzle is not distributing meth evenly across the cylinders.

This last point contradicts your last point, and would also mean if I used different sized injectors would make a different amount of meth going into each cylinder.
Got it.
That sounds like you have a DI injector issue then. At higher power levels they're not giving the same fuel. Are they all the same index?
Mixing nozzles in the same chargepipe does not matter. We do this all the time.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 12-08-2018, 01:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Payam @ BMS
Got it.
That sounds like you have a DI injector issue then. At higher power levels they're not giving the same fuel. Are they all the same index?
Mixing nozzles in the same chargepipe does not matter. We do this all the time.
Do you mean the stock injectors?

If that were the case they would do it with the meth disabled (if anything more because they need to do more)

At 17 psi with meth on trims are very different
At 17 psi with meth off trims are almost the same

Surely it would be the other way around of the stock DI system has an issue?

Not sure on the index of each one, know it's one of the numbers on the injector (I think they're all 10?)
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 12-08-2018, 01:44 AM

And re: mixing injector sizes, have you done a test with a single injector and checked trims?

Assume somebody else has done this somewhere!
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 12-29-2018, 09:42 AM

Ok, for anyone interested I found a solution to this issue...

I had the 1 injector plumbed into the top bung facing down towards the floor (because it's the easiest one to get to). On a whim I thought i'd try swapping it to the other position, facing the sky. Logic being gravity might help with mixture (seems pretty obvious now I think about it), or just a different part of air might mix better.

It worked, trims although not identical, are much better, and with meth on, map 3, it seems much happier (i'm using 100 octane pump with meth, not sure if anyone else has tried this)

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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 12-29-2018, 09:45 AM

and look at all those commas... i should just give up with punctuation
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Default 12-29-2018, 02:27 PM

You will be able to make some power on 100 octane.

Keep in mind you are using one of the largest meth nozzles availabl.
The intake manifold is well known fot not evenly distributing to all cylinders.

There are limitations and your at the pointy end.
To have perfect trims smaller nozzles like 2/ cm3 or 2/cm5 will be about the limit before seeing discrepancies.

If your running 100 octane you won't need large meth sprayed to make power. There's enough octane and you can use meth control knock and cool iats.
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 06-18-2019, 08:43 AM

Got it dyno'd

Logs attached.

Map 4 was the 520whp
Map 3 was about 470whp iirc.

All done on pump fuel with meth

Map 4 IGN 1 drops once, but I don't think it's much to worry about.

Video : 610bhp 6466 N54 335 - YouTube
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Attached Files
File Type: csv 2019-06-08 09_52_00_Map-4.csv (18.5 KB, 16 views)
File Type: csv 2019-06-08 09_48_12_Map-3.csv (22.7 KB, 13 views)
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nissubaru nissubaru is offline
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Default 06-18-2019, 08:58 AM

I'm still trying to figure out where the hell the steering column goes on a RHD N54 let alone a single turbo
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 06-18-2019, 12:38 PM

yeah it's pretty tight in there
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TimboBlackkers TimboBlackkers is offline
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Default 06-18-2019, 09:03 PM

Nice result!
Is there any E85 available in your area? There's heaps of power left on the table with the 6466.

That timing drop in MAP4 looks quite severe too..
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 06-19-2019, 04:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimboBlackkers
Nice result!
Is there any E85 available in your area? There's heaps of power left on the table with the 6466.

That timing drop in MAP4 looks quite severe too..
i have to go to france to get E85, basically. And then you can only fill your tank up. Using 30% more fuel, because E85 etc, this would be a big ball-ache. I'm trying to think of ways I can get enough back over here to make it worth my while (petrol truck with a 300litre fuel tank?)

As far as timing drops go, it had 1 event at 6.2k at 11.9 AFR on IGN1 and 1 event on IGN4 at 11.3 AFR. I'm going to try running mid 10 AFR with 75/25 meth/water and see how it behaves. Other than that I think i'm getting to the limit of what I can do without E85

Any other comments / suggestions welcome
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TimboBlackkers TimboBlackkers is offline
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Default 06-19-2019, 06:04 AM

Those AFRs are pretty fat already considering the power level. Can you take some timing out for safety?
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 06-19-2019, 06:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimboBlackkers
Those AFRs are pretty fat already considering the power level. Can you take some timing out for safety?
aye i need some dyno time to test it all really. not sure how the n54 likes more/less timing/fuel/boost
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TimboBlackkers TimboBlackkers is offline
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Default 06-19-2019, 06:01 PM

If you really want E you could probably buy a drum (200L) of E98 from a race fuel supplier like VP or similar. If you mix 30% or so it will stretch out to like 10+ tanks of fuel.

No idea what UK prices are like but here in Aus a 200L drum of E98 is $465AUD. (~$2.30 per litre).

Just a thought
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 06-20-2019, 01:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimboBlackkers
If you really want E you could probably buy a drum (200L) of E98 from a race fuel supplier like VP or similar. If you mix 30% or so it will stretch out to like 10+ tanks of fuel.

No idea what UK prices are like but here in Aus a 200L drum of E98 is $465AUD. (~$2.30 per litre).

Just a thought
You did get me googling a bit!

Bioethanol Fuel

What do you reckon of this stuff? I'm not that up to date on different types of Ethanol, but isn't E85 just 85% Ethanol and 15% normal Petrol? So I could mix these two? And this is only 1.85 a litre!
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Default 06-26-2019, 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by psblah
You did get me googling a bit!

Bioethanol Fuel

What do you reckon of this stuff? I'm not that up to date on different types of Ethanol, but isn't E85 just 85% Ethanol and 15% normal Petrol? So I could mix these two? And this is only 1.85 a litre!
Yes you can run the bioethanol. It's about 98% ethanol, 1% meth and 1% some other chemical I forget. Been using it for years.

Btw the reason cp meth doesn't distribute equally between banks is because the airflow in the manifold isn't even. There's a bit of vacuum produced near ports 1 and 2 drawing more meth in. Like you I also found the lower nozzle distributes better than the top but it's a bitch to change



UK FBO 335i, GCs, JB4, PI meth, BMS CP, OCC, Braided brake lines. Diff Lockdown. TMAP sensor, custom bucketless stage2

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11.74@129mph on GCs, custom port meth injection.

Last edited by AWSAWS; 06-26-2019 at 12:48 PM..
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TimboBlackkers TimboBlackkers is offline
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Default 06-26-2019, 06:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by psblah
You did get me googling a bit!

Bioethanol Fuel

What do you reckon of this stuff? I'm not that up to date on different types of Ethanol, but isn't E85 just 85% Ethanol and 15% normal Petrol? So I could mix these two? And this is only 1.85 a litre!
That looks like the best option, should work I'm sure.

The only UK race fuel distributor I saw with E85 was over 4 per litre!

Go for it and let us know how it goes.

You could even mix 10%, don't touch the tune and do some logs. The short term fuel trims will be fine at 10%E. It should cure your knock.
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TimboBlackkers TimboBlackkers is offline
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Default 06-26-2019, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by psblah
You did get me googling a bit!

Bioethanol Fuel

What do you reckon of this stuff? I'm not that up to date on different types of Ethanol, but isn't E85 just 85% Ethanol and 15% normal Petrol? So I could mix these two? And this is only 1.85 a litre!
Also, we only run 85% E because that's the highest we can get. If you've got E98 available you should run it straight. (assuming your fuel system flows enough)
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buster84 buster84 is offline
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Default 06-26-2019, 07:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by psblah
You did get me googling a bit!

Bioethanol Fuel

What do you reckon of this stuff? I'm not that up to date on different types of Ethanol, but isn't E85 just 85% Ethanol and 15% normal Petrol? So I could mix these two? And this is only 1.85 a litre!
If this ever gets released and the company decideds to sell worldwide this could be very useful for people who have almost no access to e85


Edit: OMG the link glitched like crazy, and does it everytime I type it. I'm not sure whats going on. If anyone wants to see it remove the $ and change it to and S to visit the link.

http$://gizmodo.com/microfueler-home-ethanol-pump-unveiled-ready-for-pre-o-388542


2009 335i X-Drive | GC 2.0 Turbos | VTT silicone Inlets | VTT Aluminum Outlets | Fuel It PI with FPR,return line, BMS controller, and flex fuel sensor | Fuel It Stage 3 fuel pump | BMS dual cone instakes | BMS Catch Can | VRSF 7.5" Race Intercooler | Forge Diverter Valves | JB4 G5 ISO with Blutooth/JB4 Mobile App | n20 tmap sensor 3.5 bar | AR After turbo Exhaust

Last edited by buster84; 06-27-2019 at 12:44 PM..
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psblah psblah is offline
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Default 06-27-2019, 12:54 AM

Cool info! Didn't realise the manifold was quite that bad! Anyone done the same tests with the BMS one? It's a similar design so i'm wondering if it has the same inherent issue!

I'll mix to E10 first, test the results, and soon as I upgrade the fuel system with port injection i'll try straight E98.
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Default 06-28-2019, 08:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by psblah
Cool info! Didn't realise the manifold was quite that bad! Anyone done the same tests with the BMS one? It's a similar design so i'm wondering if it has the same inherent issue!

I'll mix to E10 first, test the results, and soon as I upgrade the fuel system with port injection i'll try straight E98.
Not that I know of.

Actually looking at the diagram again. The reason for bank 1 being rich is because it's flowing less volume of air so it will have a lower air to fuel ratio.

I'm interested to try a manifold with the air coming in near bank 1 now.


UK FBO 335i, GCs, JB4, PI meth, BMS CP, OCC, Braided brake lines. Diff Lockdown. TMAP sensor, custom bucketless stage2

11.79@119mph on stockers, CP meth (UK, Santa Pod)
11.74@129mph on GCs, custom port meth injection.
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