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KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
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Thumbs up 11-22-2020, 06:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I'd leave it as tuned currently in the log.
an endorsement from terry himself

im taking that to the bank
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VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
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Default 11-22-2020, 07:31 PM

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Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
you're getting some timing drops on the upper end of all 3 runs which again is a clue that we're nearing the limits, they're not really bad but again, if you consistently get timing drops on a flat road when it's cold out and you're diligent with your fueling (mix e85 + 93aki), then when you're NOT diligent and or when load increases (uphill, more people/cargo, etc.) then we may push beyond the boundary too much.

with your fueling you can probably push the mid range to 21-22psi even but again, we should probably wait till temps come up to see if your stability is still there come spring/summer OR you run a dedicated winter setting vs summer setting

psychologically it may make you more "sad" for the lack of a better word since you'll get soooo much more performance in the winter then hate your car in the summer ...

in addition, do you "like" an engine with a steeply dropping torque curve from the mid range to top end ? or something that's far more flat ? By not bumping the mid we're technically giving up performance but the character could better match what we wish for (Ferrari does the same thing, limiting boost at low rpm to keep the rev happy nature their engines are associated with).
I understand. Which is why I switch to map 2 when I run out of fuel at a place where I can't find any E85! I don't want to risk it.
Car feels fine. It's really strong and faster than 98% of the cars on the roads here. I don't want to push it unnecessarily and risk engine issues. I'm happy to leave it as is. It's also a very fun drive in the city. I don't feel the need for more power at the moment. I'm glad the numbers you sent worked out perfectly for me!!! I appreciate all the help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I'd leave it as tuned currently in the log.
Yes sir. That is what I'm planning on doing! Thank you very much for a wonderful product!


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VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
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Default 12-07-2020, 04:54 PM

Mods -

1. JB4 with EWG connector; Map 6
2. Drop-in K&N filter
4. Michelin PS3+ tyres

Fuel - E25 blend

Launch control runs twice, back to back with no cool off period. Only did it those two times.

Results in the pic below.

Trap speeds - 105.06mph for the 13.12s run and 106.37mph for the 13.14s run.

Video of the second run below as I didn't know you had to actually press the record button (I assumed it would start recording automatically when you move, which was why I couldn't get the 13.12s run on video).

BMW 330i (G20) with JB4 - YouTube
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KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
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Default 12-07-2020, 10:40 PM

Faster than an STI =)
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VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
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Default 12-07-2020, 11:45 PM

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Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
Faster than an STI =)
Hehe yes. And the best part is. I can get it to do those times regularly. Unlike the 13.15s a while back which happened only twice. I tried two runs day before and they had similar numbers (13.16s and 13.15s). Tyres are still brand new (less than 50 miles on them). It's also very cold here but that also seems to help the car when it comes to IATs.
But that map 6 you sent me last is great. Car feels so smooth when doing these numbers. It also feels like the car can do more but I don't want to push things anymore unless I get a DP and other things.


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Default 12-07-2020, 11:53 PM

Omg I'm so pumped for you

I've still got a year before I can start getting to same stage as you.

Wondering if I should just say **** it to the warranty.

Do you have an oil catch can? I'm gathering parts to install one, I really don't want the Bms catch can and prefer the mishimoto generic ones
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VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
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Default 12-08-2020, 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
Omg I'm so pumped for you

I've still got a year before I can start getting to same stage as you.

Wondering if I should just say **** it to the warranty.

Do you have an oil catch can? I'm gathering parts to install one, I really don't want the Bms catch can and prefer the mishimoto generic ones
One thing that is still kinda keeping me away from a flash tune and a TCU tune is warranty. I know it's kinda the same with piggybacks but there's a false sense of peace of mind with a piggyback when it comes to warranty. Not sure why.

And no. I don't have a catch can but I've been thinking about getting one. I've been searching for install videos to see how it is. Why do you prefer mishimoto over BMS (I've seen lots of people going for Mishimoto but not sure why)?


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Default 12-08-2020, 12:55 AM

Mishimoto has the bronze filter but the bms doesn't, mishimoto also bigger so you can lengthen the service interval and check on it less often plus bigger volume means there's more time for the oil droplets to condense before going back to the intake.
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Default 12-08-2020, 08:12 AM

Our OCC is second to none and uses OEM fittings so you can easily install and remove it without having to modify the factory lines/fittings. It's designed to be serviced once a year when you do your annual oil change. Our placement also allows the can to run cool enough for proper condensation.



Burger Motorsports
Home of the JB4 the worlds most popular turbocharged tuning system!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 12-08-2020, 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Our OCC is second to none and uses OEM fittings so you can easily install and remove it without having to modify the factory lines/fittings. It's designed to be serviced once a year when you do your annual oil change. Our placement also allows the can to run cool enough for proper condensation.

I will confirm the quality and fit and easy of installation is excellent. I used on my B58.


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Default 12-08-2020, 09:36 AM

If you already have a bms intake this is an OK solution. It's as plug and play as it gets.

If you don't want the bms intake then the benefits of the bms kit (fitted hoses and bracket) go out the window.

Comparing ONLY the can design itself, a bigger can will mean the "dirty" oily air spends more time in the can before going back into the intake, this is better, there's no way around this.

The lack of an actual bronze filter (Terry please correct me if I'm wrong) means it will be less effective as well.

This isn't a complicated device. Oily air (aerosolized oil) goes in can, slows down (for sure) and cools down (not sure this is really going to make enough of a difference, how much cooler is the metal can going to be in the airbox vs mounted (anywhere else you want....) facilitating the droplets to come out of suspension.

There's nothing about a catch can itself that's "active" to get that oil out of the air... Unless you have a filter... and even then, these filters are not perfect. Catch cans relies on the fact that when the air slows down and/or when the droplets suspended in the air contact a solid surface, it preferentially stays on the surface instead of remaining in suspension (both of these effects is heavily correlated with can size).

Getting a universal kit is certainly more of a headache. The model from mishimo I want doesn't have 3/4 inch barbed fittings, they don't sell 3/4 inch hose and I'll have to fab my own bracket. This is certainly more annoying than being able to just buy a bolt on kit for sure.

Furthermore, I just spent literally most of today reading up on B series engines. Their pcv system is done differently than cars of yore. There are actually inbuilt oil separators in the head and there's two modes of pcv operation, at low load there's a path built into the head to vent the crankcase gas into the intake plumbing via the intake runners directly, meaning a catch can does nothing in this mode of operation. At higher loads, crankcase gas is vented into the intake preturbo (through our catch can).

So given the factory engineers already took a lot of low hanging fruit of the table (explaining why B series owners are getting far less oil collected than engines of previous generations with more of what they're collecting being fuel and water, which are not going to cause issues if they go back into the intake steam, volume of oil is what we are concerned with, not outright volume) it also means that what ever product we use has a much harder time to "clean" the input air, making any improvement in design (no matter how small) more important

Whether it's convenience or efficacy is more important is something every user needs to decide for themselves, for me given the convenience is not something I'll benefit from "seeing as how I don't want a bms intake AND the kit isn't appropriate for the 5 series anyways, for me the mishimoto wins.
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Default 12-08-2020, 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
If you already have a bms intake this is an OK solution. It's as plug and play as it gets.

If you don't want the bms intake then the benefits of the bms kit (fitted hoses and bracket) go out the window.

Comparing ONLY the can design itself, a bigger can will mean the "dirty" oily air spends more time in the can before going back into the intake, this is better, there's no way around this.

The lack of an actual bronze filter (Terry please correct me if I'm wrong) means it will be less effective as well.

This isn't a complicated device. Oily air (aerosolized oil) goes in can, slows down (for sure) and cools down (not sure this is really going to make enough of a difference, how much cooler is the metal can going to be in the airbox vs mounted (anywhere else you want....) facilitating the droplets to come out of suspension.

There's nothing about a catch can itself that's "active" to get that oil out of the air... Unless you have a filter... and even then, these filters are not perfect. Catch cans relies on the fact that when the air slows down and/or when the droplets suspended in the air contact a solid surface, it preferentially stays on the surface instead of remaining in suspension (both of these effects is heavily correlated with can size).

Getting a universal kit is certainly more of a headache. The model from mishimo I want doesn't have 3/4 inch barbed fittings, they don't sell 3/4 inch hose and I'll have to fab my own bracket. This is certainly more annoying than being able to just buy a bolt on kit for sure.

Furthermore, I just spent literally most of today reading up on B series engines. Their pcv system is done differently than cars of yore. There are actually inbuilt oil separators in the head and there's two modes of pcv operation, at low load there's a path built into the head to vent the crankcase gas into the intake plumbing via the intake runners directly, meaning a catch can does nothing in this mode of operation. At higher loads, crankcase gas is vented into the intake preturbo (through our catch can).

So given the factory engineers already took a lot of low hanging fruit of the table (explaining why B series owners are getting far less oil collected than engines of previous generations with more of what they're collecting being fuel and water, which are not going to cause issues if they go back into the intake steam, volume of oil is what we are concerned with, not outright volume) it also means that what ever product we use has a much harder time to "clean" the input air, making any improvement in design (no matter how small) more important

Whether it's convenience or efficacy is more important is something every user needs to decide for themselves, for me given the convenience is not something I'll benefit from "seeing as how I don't want a bms intake AND the kit isn't appropriate for the 5 series anyways, for me the mishimoto wins.
Good thinking....do you really need it?

For me, my B58 did not. A 30K engine showed not a drop of oil after 10K.



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KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
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Default 12-08-2020, 06:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboh
Good thinking....do you really need it?

For me, my B58 did not. A 30K engine showed not a drop of oil after 10K.

Did you catch anything at all?

Very strange you got absolutely nothing after 10k (did you install properly? =)

At the minimum you should get some fuel and water during winter assuming you get any snow where you live.

The amount of oil you catch is a function of cold starts (the more cold starts the more blowby), temperature (the cooler it is outside the more blowby since it takes longer to get to operating temp), how hard you drive (the harder you drive the more gas leaks pay the poison rings into the crankcase AND the more the engine will use the pipe we can intercept instead of the internal system which we can't affect)
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KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
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Default 12-08-2020, 06:23 PM

Need is a relative thing.

If you plan on keeping the car until it has 100k miles I say yes it's worth it. If you plan on filing it after a 3y lease it probably isn't.


Thing to remember is that once oil gets into the intake it WILL start to coat the intake runners and valves and there is no mechanism for the engine to get rid of this carbon buildup naturally. The only thing we can do is physically remove the contaminant by taking the intake manifold off and cleaning it manually (or run water methanol injection which serves to act like petty injected gas, just not nearly as well)

The factory separators and after market ones are not perfect, some oil will always get by so it really is a matter of whether you want a condom that's 90% effective or 99% or 99.9% kinda situation.
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Default 12-08-2020, 06:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
Did you catch anything at all?

Very strange you got absolutely nothing after 10k (did you install properly? =)

At the minimum you should get some fuel and water during winter assuming you get any snow where you live.

The amount of oil you catch is a function of cold starts (the more cold starts the more blowby), temperature (the cooler it is outside the more blowby since it takes longer to get to operating temp), how hard you drive (the harder you drive the more gas leaks pay the poison rings into the crankcase AND the more the engine will use the pipe we can intercept instead of the internal system which we can't affect)
Yup. Installed correctly. No oil. Slight oil odor. Live in NH. No dragging. Just spirited driving and wot’s. Got it to protect valves and plugs.


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VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
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Default 12-08-2020, 08:19 PM

Interesting reading. I don't drive too hard (unless I am/was logging or doing LC for a couple of numbers). Other than that, I drive sedately (mainly city drives). I also drive slowly for a minute or two before I reach home, to let the engine kinda cool. I also let it idle for a bit, if possible, before turning it off. And in the winter, I usually take the SUV out, especially if there is snow (no snow yet and this winter hasn't been too cold compared to previous years).

I read a thread where someone posted how they installed an OCC (I know KnifeEdge87 read it too :D). Seems a wee bit complicated for someone like me.

I'm still on the fence regarding getting one. Plus I, most likely, will return the car at the end of the lease and get an M340i or something for some more fun!


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KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
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Default 12-08-2020, 08:29 PM

If you're returning after your lease there's absolutely no reason to get it

I would be extremely impressed if you could buildup much carbon in a 3y time frame

The factory baffles and stuff are very good now so the benefits are really only going to be seen like 8 years down the road. The oil in the intake stream lowering octane is an absolute dog**** argument. It's technically true but in such an imperceptible and inconsequential manner that is akin to saying sea level rises when you take a piss in the ocean.
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Default 12-11-2020, 09:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
If you're returning after your lease there's absolutely no reason to get it

I would be extremely impressed if you could buildup much carbon in a 3y time frame

The factory baffles and stuff are very good now so the benefits are really only going to be seen like 8 years down the road. The oil in the intake stream lowering octane is an absolute dog**** argument. It's technically true but in such an imperceptible and inconsequential manner that is akin to saying sea level rises when you take a piss in the ocean.
Yes. I assumed it would be a waste too, considering I'd be putting like max 22-23k miles before I return this car (previous A4 had 21k miles by the time I returned it and my 3yr old SQ5 has 8800 miles as of date and the 4yr old A7 has 12k miles as of date!).


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Default 12-15-2020, 11:23 PM

So guys. There's a weird issue.

My car shows speeds much higher than the actual speed on the speedometer. Earlier, it used to show exactly 3mph higher than GPS speeds all the time and it was limited at exactly 129mph as noted on the dragy as well as other apps showing GPS based speeds (car speedometer showed 130mph).
After going to the custom map 6 I'm running now, I noticed my speedometer reads around 5-7mph higher than before. When the car hits the limiter at 130mph, dragy and other GPS based apps (waze, google maps etc) shows my car stuck at 123mph and it absolutely will not go past that because of the limiter (because of which I can't record 62-124mph times; which was when I noticed the error). Any idea why that could be?
I know it's the custom map 6 causing it and not something else such as the new tyres I installed (which are the same size as the tyres that came with the car) or some other setting on the idrive. Reason is because, when I switch back to map 3, the car speedometer showed the correct speed and it tops out at 129mph. I tested it back to back on the exact same road a few minutes apart (129mph on map 3 and 123mph on map 6).
It has me perplexed. I'm wondering if there's a logical reason for this.

Any insight will be appreciated.


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Default 12-16-2020, 08:22 AM

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Originally Posted by VipinLJ
So guys. There's a weird issue.

My car shows speeds much higher than the actual speed on the speedometer. Earlier, it used to show exactly 3mph higher than GPS speeds all the time and it was limited at exactly 129mph as noted on the dragy as well as other apps showing GPS based speeds (car speedometer showed 130mph).
After going to the custom map 6 I'm running now, I noticed my speedometer reads around 5-7mph higher than before. When the car hits the limiter at 130mph, dragy and other GPS based apps (waze, google maps etc) shows my car stuck at 123mph and it absolutely will not go past that because of the limiter (because of which I can't record 62-124mph times; which was when I noticed the error). Any idea why that could be?
I know it's the custom map 6 causing it and not something else such as the new tyres I installed (which are the same size as the tyres that came with the car) or some other setting on the idrive. Reason is because, when I switch back to map 3, the car speedometer showed the correct speed and it tops out at 129mph. I tested it back to back on the exact same road a few minutes apart (129mph on map 3 and 123mph on map 6).
It has me perplexed. I'm wondering if there's a logical reason for this.

Any insight will be appreciated.
I'm not even entirely sure what you're trying to say...
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Default 12-16-2020, 09:16 AM

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I'm not even entirely sure what you're trying to say...
Wow. If you are running like that, at those speeds on the highway, I would say the error is in the observer. That is very dangerous. If on a runway or drag strip....well...interesting.


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Default 12-16-2020, 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
I'm not even entirely sure what you're trying to say...
When I run map 6, my car speedometer reads much higher than it should. When the car speedometer shows 130mph, GPS speed is 123mph. Since the car is limited to 130mph, the speed does not increase and is a constant 123mph at WOT at the limiter. There's also a bigger difference at lower speeds (when car shows 75mph, actual speed is only 70mph). A difference of 2-3mph is normal. But 5-7mph isn't.

When I switch back to map 3, when the car speedometer shows 130mph, GPS speed is 129mph (which I absolutely cannot hit with map 6). On map 3, when I'm doing 75mph, GPS speed is 73mph and constant.

The speedometer error is because of the map and not because of some other external factor.

I was wondering why map 6 was making my car read higher speeds than it should. I even have video proof of it in my channel where dragy reads lower speeds (when car is at 128mph, dragy only shows 119-120mph).

2020 BMW 330i with JB4 - YouTube

GPS apps used to verify actual speeds is dragy, waze, google maps and the JB4 app.


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Default 12-16-2020, 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VipinLJ
When I run map 6, my car speedometer reads much higher than it should. When the car speedometer shows 130mph, GPS speed is 123mph. Since the car is limited to 130mph, the speed does not increase and is a constant 123mph at WOT at the limiter. There's also a bigger difference at lower speeds (when car shows 75mph, actual speed is only 70mph). A difference of 2-3mph is normal. But 5-7mph isn't.

When I switch back to map 3, when the car speedometer shows 130mph, GPS speed is 129mph (which I absolutely cannot hit with map 6). On map 3, when I'm doing 75mph, GPS speed is 73mph and constant.

The speedometer error is because of the map and not because of some other external factor.

I was wondering why map 6 was making my car read higher speeds than it should. I even have video proof of it in my channel where dragy reads lower speeds (when car is at 128mph, dragy only shows 119-120mph).

2020 BMW 330i with JB4 - YouTube

I think you're probably seeing a pattern which isn't there

Could be GPS calibration issue or something

Your speed in your car is linked to your wheel speed sensor, JB4 doesn't interfere with this.

If in doubt check against engine rpm v speed

There's no way you're getting wheel slip at those speeds so maybe looking at your logs in this way will shed some light
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Default 12-16-2020, 09:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Turboh
Wow. If you are running like that, at those speeds on the highway, I would say the error is in the observer. That is very dangerous. If on a runway or drag strip....well...interesting.
The 70-75mph runs are highway runs and I made my wife check it.

The top speed run is on my usual empty road (it's like probably 3-4 miles long and dead empty) where I can cruise at 130 indicated and check waze/dragy which I attach on the idrive screen which says 123mph.

And definitely not observer error because I noticed it when I was trying to time my 62-124mph run with the new map 6 and dragy wouldn't record it because it stops at 123mph (I ran map 3 yesterday and it hit 129mph).


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Default 12-16-2020, 09:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
I think you're probably seeing a pattern which isn't there

Could be GPS calibration issue or something

Your speed in your car is linked to your wheel speed sensor, JB4 doesn't interfere with this.

If in doubt check against engine rpm v speed

There's no way you're getting wheel slip at those speeds so maybe looking at your logs in this way will shed some light
I know the JB4 doesn't interfere with the speed sensor, which was why I was perplexed. And I was even more confused when I realised the error disappeared in map 3 and was present only in map 6.

I know everyone (including myself) thinks it's an observer error but it isn't. It's present and it's very obvious. It doesn't bother me but just wondering why that error appears only in map 6.


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