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Williamdb13 Williamdb13 is offline
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Default Message for all upgraded turbo buyers to consider - 04-12-2017, 06:12 PM

Hey all,

I just wanted to give my story about my turbo upgrade so far, and hopefully people looking to upgrade soon will read it and take it into consideration before they purchase. I bought last summer and installed VTT stage 1 turbos, and the first several thousand miles they were exactly what I was looking for. I had nothing to complain about whatsoever. Then the rattle started..... And it only got worse and worse. Now, just 8 months later, the turbos rattle worse than I ever heard from my old stockers. JB4 fix? Nope. Mr.5 rod adjustment fix? Not a chance. It is so bad that it rattles on acceleration, startup, even when I sit at idle and stop lights the wastegates rattle (its such an awful noise). I have done everything, even took the ********* off to adjust them while looking at the flapper arms, still tremendous rattle. Contacted VTT and I did not get anything back too helpful either. I have no problem with VTT, i've bought several products from them and they work great. This is just not acceptable at all. And I have heard accounts of other aftermarket turbos rattling too, and this isnt to single anyone out, but if you claim "upgraded wastegates" then back up that claim with a solid product and or customer support. I shouldn't have to waste time or money fixing the product that a lot of us spend several thousand dollars on, when the product itself claims to fix this awful issue. So my message is to potential buyers of any aftermarket twin system is contact them first about their wastegates and try to get a concrete answer to what they do to fix the issue, and if possible what their policy is if you experience future problems with them. I did not do that and completely understand that that is on me, but now I'm out a few grand and did not fix the main issue i wanted to fix with my car. again.... THIS IS NOT CALLING ANYONE ANYTHING. THIS ISNT A SLANDER PIECE TO ANY COMPANY. I'm just saying do some research.
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Payam @ BMS's Avatar
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Default 04-12-2017, 07:19 PM

Unfortunately wastegate rattle is just the nature of it. There is nothing you can do to fix that issue with pneumatic gates, it's the way they are made with the C clip and actuator rod etc. They wear and get a bit loose over time.

Trust me, it's not only this platform. I'm very keen to wastegate rattle, and I heard it one day at Supercar Sunday. It was very loud and I knew exactly what it was. I turn around and it was a brand new 991 Turbo S. A $200k+ car was making that rattle, I just couldn't believe it.


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dyezak dyezak is offline
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Default 04-12-2017, 08:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Payam @ BMS
Unfortunately wastegate rattle is just the nature of it. There is nothing you can do to fix that issue with pneumatic gates, it's the way they are made with the C clip and actuator rod etc. They wear and get a bit loose over time.

Trust me, it's not only this platform. I'm very keen to wastegate rattle, and I heard it one day at Supercar Sunday. It was very loud and I knew exactly what it was. I turn around and it was a brand new 991 Turbo S. A $200k+ car was making that rattle, I just couldn't believe it.
That has not been my experience. I bought my first DSM (GSX) in 1996, and owned 5 of them over the years. Then I had 2 EVO's. All told I went through at least a dozen aftermarket turbos. 16g's, Frank Jr's, 19c's, 20g's, FP Greens (on 3 cars, I loved that turbo) and an FP Black. 7 turbo cars comprising a dozen different turbo combinations all with internal gates and I never had wastegate rattle. All my experience was however Mitsubishi heavy industries CHRA's.

I cracked countless manifolds, and popped who knows how many exhaust manifold studs. Blew out turbo to manifold gaskets and dipsticks. Fried a couple short blocks (phantom knock was a problem, and I foolishly ignored the knock sensor). And don't even make me count the clutch/transmission/axle issues. But I never heard a single wastegate rattle.

Leave it to my first BMW to expose me to this interesting anomaly. Luckily my current one doesn't seem to have the issue.
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Williamdb13 Williamdb13 is offline
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Default 04-12-2017, 08:32 PM

im trying to get in contact with a guy who makes the complete assembly with stronger parts but at some point I think it boils down to just a bad design. There seems to be either two problems, and thats the wastegate not being adjusted properly or the bushing in the wastegate "flap" itself going bad and it being free to move around and cause the awful noise. Its funny how some dont have the slightiest rattle, but then some of us unlucky ones have to hear it. My father had a 335i same year same exact model as me a few years ago. owned it for 60000 miles without any rattle.
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Mrjrock85 Mrjrock85 is offline
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Default 04-12-2017, 08:50 PM

I think the majority of the waste gate failures imo is from the angle/fulcrum(not a linear movement) at which it operates and also the pull rather than push range of motion to operate. It's a ****ty design all around.
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Default 04-13-2017, 08:41 AM

Man, sorry to hear that. I'd certainly be disappointed if my new hybrids were rattling uncontrollably after only 8,000 miles. Especially seeing as that's the reason I want to upgrade in the first place.


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Default 04-13-2017, 08:48 AM

From the VTT website:
Quote:
For the turbine side we remove the stock waste gate arm and flapper valve prone to rattling and boost loss issues and upgrade it with a 100% stainless steel piece to eliminate all of these known problems.
Hmm. Yeah.
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Torgus Torgus is offline
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Default 04-13-2017, 12:18 PM

It seems nothing works as well as stock turbos for longevity of the turbo or wastegate.


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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 04-13-2017, 12:22 PM

Single turbo with external wastegate is the only cure.

Just about any turbo engine with internal wastegate suffer from this problem, especially if you ditch the stock exhaust/*********. On the N54, it is just more noticeable with the way that wastegate operates (default open position vs closed on most cars).


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Default 04-13-2017, 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyezak
That has not been my experience. I bought my first DSM (GSX) in 1996, and owned 5 of them over the years. Then I had 2 EVO's. All told I went through at least a dozen aftermarket turbos. 16g's, Frank Jr's, 19c's, 20g's, FP Greens (on 3 cars, I loved that turbo) and an FP Black. 7 turbo cars comprising a dozen different turbo combinations all with internal gates and I never had wastegate rattle. All my experience was however Mitsubishi heavy industries CHRA's.

I cracked countless manifolds, and popped who knows how many exhaust manifold studs. Blew out turbo to manifold gaskets and dipsticks. Fried a couple short blocks (phantom knock was a problem, and I foolishly ignored the knock sensor). And don't even make me count the clutch/transmission/axle issues. But I never heard a single wastegate rattle.

Leave it to my first BMW to expose me to this interesting anomaly. Luckily my current one doesn't seem to have the issue.
Agreed. also a veteran of the DSM world, never heard of wastegate rattle on any turbos, factory or aftermarket.
Been around the block on different platforms, forums, etc. - don't recall hearing about wastegate rattle on other platforms. Not saying it doesn't happen, but would seem to be MUCH less common outside of BMW/N54 world.
Just because there was a single Porsche one person hard what they thought was WG rattle, doesn't mean it is common on that platform either.

CHRA manufacturer would not affect the tendency to rattle, but turbine housing/flapper design/materials, and external actuator design/materials, would.

Aftermarket N54 'upgraded' WG actuators from vendors are purportedly made of different materials, but don't think any of them address design deficiencies. When I got my VTT GC lites, I was pretty surprised at how much play there was in the WG flapper and actuator arm (clip portion) right out the box ... can't say if it's going to be a problem or not yet, but was expecting an 'upgrade' to be tighter with zero miles.


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Last edited by LessIsMore; 04-13-2017 at 12:32 PM..
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fredcase fredcase is offline
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Default 04-13-2017, 12:52 PM

I machined my own wastegates from the best stainless my research led me too,310 ss believe. I tightened up some of the tolerances and applied high heat grease to all moving parts. I got about 20,000km on them. Still no rattle.

The stainless was expensive af, and a total pita to machine, but if these prove to be the better than any solution on the market, I may make a one time production run of a few hundred. Material alone is close to $100 a set, and pretty involved to machine, so, looking at $250-$300 Canadian a set.

I have an extra set ready now, and two more sets that could be ready soon.

pm me if you wanna betta test a set.


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dyezak dyezak is offline
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Default 04-13-2017, 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredcase
I machined my own wastegates from the best stainless my research led me too,310 ss believe. I tightened up some of the tolerances and applied high heat grease to all moving parts. I got about 20,000km on them. Still no rattle.

The stainless was expensive af, and a total pita to machine, but if these prove to be the better than any solution on the market, I may make a one time production run of a few hundred. Material alone is close to $100 a set, and pretty involved to machine, so, looking at $250-$300 Canadian a set.

I have an extra set ready now, and two more sets that could be ready soon.

pm me if you wanna betta test a set.
Why not inconel or stellite? I would think stellite would have bested 310SS.
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R.G. R.G. is offline
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Default 04-13-2017, 01:12 PM

What boost level were you running them at recently?
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fredcase fredcase is offline
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Default 04-13-2017, 01:35 PM

Inconel was considered, but even more expensive and even harder to machine. I went with 310 for its resistance to deteriate at high temps.

Titanium was also considered, and I'm nit familiar with stellite. Might look into that.

I'm running map 7. So usually about 19.5 psi. I'm not convinced higher boost levels affect wastegate wear.


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Default 04-13-2017, 10:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Williamdb13
Hey all,

I just wanted to give my story about my turbo upgrade so far, and hopefully people looking to upgrade soon will read it and take it into consideration before they purchase. I bought last summer and installed VTT stage 1 turbos, and the first several thousand miles they were exactly what I was looking for. I had nothing to complain about whatsoever. Then the rattle started..... And it only got worse and worse. Now, just 8 months later, the turbos rattle worse than I ever heard from my old stockers. JB4 fix? Nope. Mr.5 rod adjustment fix? Not a chance. It is so bad that it rattles on acceleration, startup, even when I sit at idle and stop lights the wastegates rattle (its such an awful noise). I have done everything, even took the ********* off to adjust them while looking at the flapper arms, still tremendous rattle. Contacted VTT and I did not get anything back too helpful either. I have no problem with VTT, i've bought several products from them and they work great. This is just not acceptable at all. And I have heard accounts of other aftermarket turbos rattling too, and this isnt to single anyone out, but if you claim "upgraded wastegates" then back up that claim with a solid product and or customer support. I shouldn't have to waste time or money fixing the product that a lot of us spend several thousand dollars on, when the product itself claims to fix this awful issue. So my message is to potential buyers of any aftermarket twin system is contact them first about their wastegates and try to get a concrete answer to what they do to fix the issue, and if possible what their policy is if you experience future problems with them. I did not do that and completely understand that that is on me, but now I'm out a few grand and did not fix the main issue i wanted to fix with my car. again.... THIS IS NOT CALLING ANYONE ANYTHING. THIS ISNT A SLANDER PIECE TO ANY COMPANY. I'm just saying do some research.
William;

First, I think it's important to distinguish the sort of wastegate rattle that BMW associated with failed turbos versus part of the design like Payam referred to above (thanks Payam!).

The flapper valve itself is held near/slightly touching the housing at idle/low loads. The valve will literally rattle against the housing -this is totally normal. You can adjust this in the tune (hold the valve a little further away).

Now, when the actual components start wearing out, you can grab the wastegate arm and shake stuff back and forth -binding, rattling, and lack of boost capability will result. This is mostly due to clearances drastically increasing when materials wear out. Ultimately you'll be unable to make target boost, throw the good 'ole 30FF code (underboost). This is the issue that BMW had with OEM turbos and a big reason why so many people got shiny new turbos from BMW.

VTT uses superior materials and clearances so the absolute destruction of wastegate parts really just doesn't happen -especially in 8 months (assuming you didn't drive 40k miles per month).

This leads me to believe that something is awry, could be something else rattling on the ********, I'm just guessing here now, vacuum lines jacked up... something is off. They shouldn't rattle during acceleration. Period. I'm suspicious.

Shoot me an email to chris@vargasturbo.com with some more details about what your setup is. Only caveat is that I'm going to be away for the weekend so if my response is delayed, I didn't blow you off... just getting out of town.

Whatever it is, I'm sure we can square it away. Send me an email and I'll get on it.

Best,

Chris


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R.G. R.G. is offline
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Default 04-13-2017, 11:41 PM

Check your exhaust to ******** bolts (4 total). Those little mf-ers love to loosen and rattle
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larippa larippa is offline
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Default 04-14-2017, 12:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Payam @ BMS
Unfortunately wastegate rattle is just the nature of it. There is nothing you can do to fix that issue with pneumatic gates, it's the way they are made with the C clip and actuator rod etc. They wear and get a bit loose over time.

Trust me, it's not only this platform. I'm very keen to wastegate rattle, and I heard it one day at Supercar Sunday. It was very loud and I knew exactly what it was. I turn around and it was a brand new 991 Turbo S. A $200k+ car was making that rattle, I just couldn't believe it.
Lol... 911 Turbo has VGT turbo's which does not have waste gates
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ratapeludismo ratapeludismo is offline
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Default 04-14-2017, 07:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech
William;


This leads me to believe that something is awry, could be something else rattling on the ********, I'm just guessing here now, vacuum lines jacked up... something is off. They shouldn't rattle during acceleration. Period. I'm suspicious
We are many who suffer sound wastegates when starting and accelerating.
Audio output at startup.



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Default 04-14-2017, 11:26 AM

Yeah, that's normal. Any situation that the flapper valve isn't forcefully held against the housing will cause clatter/rattle. Start. Idle. Very low load.


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dyezak dyezak is offline
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Default 04-14-2017, 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech
Yeah, that's normal. Any situation that the flapper valve isn't forcefully held against the housing will cause clatter/rattle. Start. Idle. Very low load.
It'd be cool if some enterprising turbo manufacturer teamed up with an enterprising software developer and switched the wastegate actuators over to the industry standard default closed design that doesn't plague the owner with clatter and rattles. While that might not be interesting to a stock turbo guy, or a person running a single turbo...anyone running hybrid twins would be a potential customer.

Just a thought.
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Default 04-14-2017, 03:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyezak
That has not been my experience. I bought my first DSM (GSX) in 1996, and owned 5 of them over the years. Then I had 2 EVO's. All told I went through at least a dozen aftermarket turbos. 16g's, Frank Jr's, 19c's, 20g's, FP Greens (on 3 cars, I loved that turbo) and an FP Black. 7 turbo cars comprising a dozen different turbo combinations all with internal gates and I never had wastegate rattle. All my experience was however Mitsubishi heavy industries CHRA's.

I cracked countless manifolds, and popped who knows how many exhaust manifold studs. Blew out turbo to manifold gaskets and dipsticks. Fried a couple short blocks (phantom knock was a problem, and I foolishly ignored the knock sensor). And don't even make me count the clutch/transmission/axle issues. But I never heard a single wastegate rattle.

Leave it to my first BMW to expose me to this interesting anomaly. Luckily my current one doesn't seem to have the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessIsMore
Agreed. also a veteran of the DSM world, never heard of wastegate rattle on any turbos, factory or aftermarket.
Been around the block on different platforms, forums, etc. - don't recall hearing about wastegate rattle on other platforms. Not saying it doesn't happen, but would seem to be MUCH less common outside of BMW/N54 world.
Just because there was a single Porsche one person hard what they thought was WG rattle, doesn't mean it is common on that platform either.

CHRA manufacturer would not affect the tendency to rattle, but turbine housing/flapper design/materials, and external actuator design/materials, would.

Aftermarket N54 'upgraded' WG actuators from vendors are purportedly made of different materials, but don't think any of them address design deficiencies. When I got my VTT GC lites, I was pretty surprised at how much play there was in the WG flapper and actuator arm (clip portion) right out the box ... can't say if it's going to be a problem or not yet, but was expecting an 'upgrade' to be tighter with zero miles.
You guys do realize that none of those cars use vacuum actuated wastegates right? All of those cars you are so intimately familiar with use a completely different design to the wastegate system. Completely. You're comparing Mila Kunis to Kylie Jenner, just becuase they identify as "wastegates", doesn't mean the plumbing is the same...
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Default 04-14-2017, 04:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyezak
It'd be cool if some enterprising turbo manufacturer teamed up with an enterprising software developer and switched the wastegate actuators over to the industry standard default closed design that doesn't plague the owner with clatter and rattles. While that might not be interesting to a stock turbo guy, or a person running a single turbo...anyone running hybrid twins would be a potential customer.

Just a thought.
Honestly the BMW design is pretty good. It has a few issues, yes, but I'd much rather have it fail open rather than closed. Plus it's very easy to target any boost you want -no fooling around with springs/etc.

Chris


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Default 04-14-2017, 04:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
You guys do realize that none of those cars use vacuum actuated wastegates right? All of those cars you are so intimately familiar with use a completely different design to the wastegate system. Completely. You're comparing Mila Kunis to Kylie Jenner, just becuase they identify as "wastegates", doesn't mean the plumbing is the same...
Caitlyn. Lol
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bradsm87 bradsm87 is offline
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Default 04-14-2017, 06:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyezak
That has not been my experience. I bought my first DSM (GSX) in 1996, and owned 5 of them over the years. Then I had 2 EVO's. All told I went through at least a dozen aftermarket turbos. 16g's, Frank Jr's, 19c's, 20g's, FP Greens (on 3 cars, I loved that turbo) and an FP Black. 7 turbo cars comprising a dozen different turbo combinations all with internal gates and I never had wastegate rattle. All my experience was however Mitsubishi heavy industries CHRA's.

I cracked countless manifolds, and popped who knows how many exhaust manifold studs. Blew out turbo to manifold gaskets and dipsticks. Fried a couple short blocks (phantom knock was a problem, and I foolishly ignored the knock sensor). And don't even make me count the clutch/transmission/axle issues. But I never heard a single wastegate rattle.

Leave it to my first BMW to expose me to this interesting anomaly. Luckily my current one doesn't seem to have the issue.
That's because all of those cars have normally-closed wastegates with traditional spring-preloaded actuators. They spend the vast majority of their time closed and still. Our cars and a lot of newer cars have wastegate flappers constantly moving during normal driving, wearing them out much quicker.
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Payam @ BMS's Avatar
Payam @ BMS Payam @ BMS is offline
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Default 04-14-2017, 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by larippa
Lol... 911 Turbo has VGT turbo's which does not have waste gates
Was waiting for someone to chime in on this. I'm very aware of the new system, that's why I never said it was the wastegates directly for the 991.

You even quoted what the main reason behind the rattle. The C clip to the Rod.
Take a look here and you can see they have actually tripled the C clips, which is why that rattled.



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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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