N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion
(#201)
Old
VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 187
Join Date: Feb 2020
Car: G20 330i, F25 X3, B9 SQ5, C7.5 A7
Default 01-15-2021, 07:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
Looks fine

Throttle never fully opens up but then again it never did when we first started doing this map 6 either

Timing is all good

Seems fine to me
Yes it doesn't. Thank God it's nothing I can feel :D

And yes. As long as it's fine, I'm more than happy! Thank you very much once again!!


Current:
2020 BMW 330i xDrive
2018 Audi SQ5 Prestige
2017 Audi A7 Prestige
Reply With Quote
(#202)
Old
Turboh's Avatar
Turboh Turboh is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 271
Join Date: Nov 2017
Car: 2017 BMW 340iX
Default 01-15-2021, 09:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VipinLJ
I managed to get a log of sorts today on the highway. Freezing cold here plus roads were a bit slippery because of the rains. I just want to make sure everything is ok. Car performs great as far as I can tell.

Couldn't start lower than roughly 2600 because I saw lights approaching from far behind me and didn't want to be "that guy" on the highway.

Fuel ~ E25
Hi,

Just a quick look and comparing to my runs on 93 octane and no EWG, your acceleration is quite good, but the throttle is really erratic along with the trims, and FF and WGDC. I run V17, not V19. Your timing is excellent so I would expect better performance. My instinct says drop the gain, go back to additive map 6 and tweak the ff / wgdb settings. You should go smoother and faster. IMHO

As an aside, I just had my first tranny code. I deleted it via JB4 but wonder what you found out when you had it.

Thanks,

Alex


2020 330iX auto sport w/M track handling, JB4 ; 93 octane; Honda S2000; Ninja Z1000.
Reply With Quote
(#203)
Old
VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 187
Join Date: Feb 2020
Car: G20 330i, F25 X3, B9 SQ5, C7.5 A7
Default 01-15-2021, 09:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboh
Hi,

Just a quick look and comparing to my runs on 93 octane and no EWG, your acceleration is quite good, but the throttle is really erratic along with the trims, and FF and WGDC. I run V17, not V19. Your timing is excellent so I would expect better performance. My instinct says drop the gain, go back to additive map 6 and tweak the ff / wgdb settings. You should go smoother and faster. IMHO

As an aside, I just had my first tranny code. I deleted it via JB4 but wonder what you found out when you had it.

Thanks,

Alex
Hey Alex!

Yes. My throttle definitely is very erratic. But no matter what we (basically KnifeEdge87) did, we couldn't smoothen it out. Funny thing is, before I installed the EWG connector, I think it was smooth (though it never went to 100% IIRC). But that was also a different map 6.

So you're saying I should try setting it at 6 all through and then fiddle with the FF/wgdb (I honestly have no idea what those are) to try fix it? I would have if I knew how to.

The only thing I am looking at is the way the car drives and engine feels (seat of the pants). It pulls great and honestly feels extremely smooth too. I always thought piggybacks made a car drive slightly rough compared to a flash tune but this is not the case in my car.

And the code I got was 11A605. I'm not sure that was a tranny code (?) but I could be wrong. I read somewhere that it was related to fuel starvation. I think it was the supramkv forum. I'll have to Google it again. The reason I kept thinking it was that was because it happened twice when fuel was extremely low (1 gallon or less) and once when I pulled out of the gas station right after filling up. Nowadays, I always fill my tank up the moment the low fuel indicator comes on or when I notice my car is at around 60 miles to empty. I've never had the code pop up after those times. I also remember you saying it was the high load (when you went through my logs) which could also be the reason (I'm a total noob).
When did you get the code? What were the conditions?
When I got the codes, my car jerked for a second before the drivetrain malfunction popped up. It drove smooth after that even though the malfunction was present on the idrive. Also, right before the malfunction popped up, the car felt like it lost some power (when it happened twice after the first, I could tell my car was going to throw the code a second or so before it actually did and before the car jerked). Also, it happened at WOT.

Regards,
Vipin


Current:
2020 BMW 330i xDrive
2018 Audi SQ5 Prestige
2017 Audi A7 Prestige
Reply With Quote
(#204)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 07:01 AM

I’m not even sure what the FF and wgdc(Pwm) fields do on our cars with electronic waste gate actuation.

On the older pneumatic wastegate engines control of the actuation was based on vacuum lines and solenoids. ( you can’t tell the wastegate to open 70%, you can only say open/close the vacuum solenoid X times per sec to try and achieve this )

On electronic wastegates I can only assume that it’s a lot easier since you just tell the servomotor (wastegate to X position)

BMS has not really provided much info on what user adjustable fields we have or how we can use them for electronic wastegate engines. Or if they have, I haven’t seen it. Most of the info I see floating around is still from the pwg engine days and there are still references to things which obviously don’t/can’t do anything, like the fuel bias and fuel open loop fields when the b series jb4 does not have any connections/control over the fuel system.

I think what would be helpful in a later update for the b series EWG equipped software is user defined “psi underreport” variable. I might be talking out of my ass but there seems to be enough cases of throttle closure which is related to mild overboosting that isn’t causing timing drops (like vipin’s case) that this might be worth looking at. Hell... if we are thinking of what we would like to add maybe a “throttle wire” so we have direct control of throttle opening which seems to be how bmw is artificially kneecapping the retuned b48 variants. Of course this presents a certain level of danger given the throttle is an inherent safety device though it’s no more dangerous than a flash tune which does the “same” thing. What it would need though is more r&d on BMS’s part to get it in a “ready for retail” state. BMS will need to find what signals lead to legitimate throttle closures and let those signals through whereas ignore the signals which cause the inexplicable unwanted throttle closures.
Reply With Quote
(#205)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 07:06 AM

Please correct me if I’m wrong but a lot of the for/pidpwm/wgdc stuff and “learning” functionality was ONLY applicable to pwg since each car may need a different vacuum/solenoid activation frequency to achieve a given wastegate position or boost control dynamic.

Again, for electronic wastegates I can only assume that this problem doesn’t exist as the position control should be a lot more direct (to be fair this Is still only HALF the problem since wastegate position doesn’t directly correlate one to one with boost)
Reply With Quote
(#206)
Old
Turboh's Avatar
Turboh Turboh is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 271
Join Date: Nov 2017
Car: 2017 BMW 340iX
Default 01-16-2021, 08:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
Please correct me if I’m wrong but a lot of the for/pidpwm/wgdc stuff and “learning” functionality was ONLY applicable to pwg since each car may need a different vacuum/solenoid activation frequency to achieve a given wastegate position or boost control dynamic.

Again, for electronic wastegates I can only assume that this problem doesn’t exist as the position control should be a lot more direct (to be fair this Is still only HALF the problem since wastegate position doesn’t directly correlate one to one with boost)
Hi Knife,

Check this posting, if you have not done so. I found it quite good and after reading it 20 times and trying changes on the settings, it does seem to help.

I have not installed the ewg wire yet.

JB4 Duty Bias FF Tuning Info - N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion


2020 330iX auto sport w/M track handling, JB4 ; 93 octane; Honda S2000; Ninja Z1000.
Reply With Quote
(#207)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 08:34 AM

If you don't have an EWG by definition the settings you're talking about can't help. They all relate to wastegate control which you don't have if all you're hooked up to are the pre throttle pressure sensor and manifold pressure sensor.

I refuse to trust my butt dyno for anything other than "fun factor" since the brain plays so many tricks on you.
Reply With Quote
(#208)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 09:00 AM

Even with numbers (logs showing before and after) your brain can play tricks on you

Things may have improved but the cause certainly can't be due to you changing fields that you KNOW can't do anything

Like for me I ran into severe throttling issues again when in map 0 because of the bmw detuning gremlins the past few weeks. But yesterday I ran a 3rd gear pull again and lo and behold no throttling issues. It could be due to any number of reasons. I had filled up at another gas station recently, it could be air temps, could just be random luck, could be the dme somehow adjusting itself to good knows what, etc.

To try and associate a change in result with a change in input requires keeping as much as possible the other variables constant which in this day and age is extremely difficult even when on a dyno and outright impossible on the road.

Finding the true source of something is hard enough without us trying to find solutions where they can't possibly be hiding.

I apologize if I am being a bit harsh but I really have to stand quite firm on these points. In general across all things in life now, there is way too much misinformation out there that I really don't want to contribute to it.

I'm not claiming to be a tuning expert but I'd like to think I'm knowledgeable enough that if a claim doesn't smell right to me that at the very least, it requires further investigation.

Likewise if I ever say anything that's unsubstantiated or not well thought out or whatever, absolutely do NOT just take my word on it. At the end of the day the stuff we are talking about is not that complicated, we aren't taking about hardware changes and whether porting a head is good or bad because it improves or hurts the swirl of air fuel mixture in the combustion chamber (this is not applicable to our engines, just something off the top of my head). Hell at the moment we aren't even taking about tuning in the strictest sense of the word, all we are doing is boost control. If I can't manage to convince someone of what I'm saying, then that is absolutely MY problem unless who I'm talking to has down syndrome.
Reply With Quote
(#209)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 09:03 AM

Btw

Shall we start a whatsapp group or something?
Reply With Quote
(#210)
Old
Turboh's Avatar
Turboh Turboh is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 271
Join Date: Nov 2017
Car: 2017 BMW 340iX
Default 01-16-2021, 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VipinLJ
Hey Alex!

Yes. My throttle definitely is very erratic. But no matter what we (basically KnifeEdge87) did, we couldn't smoothen it out. Funny thing is, before I installed the EWG connector, I think it was smooth (though it never went to 100% IIRC). But that was also a different map 6.

So you're saying I should try setting it at 6 all through and then fiddle with the FF/wgdb (I honestly have no idea what those are) to try fix it? I would have if I knew how to.

The only thing I am looking at is the way the car drives and engine feels (seat of the pants). It pulls great and honestly feels extremely smooth too. I always thought piggybacks made a car drive slightly rough compared to a flash tune but this is not the case in my car.

And the code I got was 11A605. I'm not sure that was a tranny code (?) but I could be wrong. I read somewhere that it was related to fuel starvation. I think it was the supramkv forum. I'll have to Google it again. The reason I kept thinking it was that was because it happened twice when fuel was extremely low (1 gallon or less) and once when I pulled out of the gas station right after filling up. Nowadays, I always fill my tank up the moment the low fuel indicator comes on or when I notice my car is at around 60 miles to empty. I've never had the code pop up after those times. I also remember you saying it was the high load (when you went through my logs) which could also be the reason (I'm a total noob).
When did you get the code? What were the conditions?
When I got the codes, my car jerked for a second before the drivetrain malfunction popped up. It drove smooth after that even though the malfunction was present on the idrive. Also, right before the malfunction popped up, the car felt like it lost some power (when it happened twice after the first, I could tell my car was going to throw the code a second or so before it actually did and before the car jerked). Also, it happened at WOT.

Regards,
Vipin
Hi Vilpin,

Finally managed the convert file forms to something the system would take. Review and compare. Let me know what you think.

Alex
Attached Files
File Type: xls Good Map6 3.5 run.xls (86.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: xls P58_M6_R1_201026_log3 (1)vilpin.xls (57.5 KB, 7 views)


2020 330iX auto sport w/M track handling, JB4 ; 93 octane; Honda S2000; Ninja Z1000.
Reply With Quote
(#211)
Old
Turboh's Avatar
Turboh Turboh is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 271
Join Date: Nov 2017
Car: 2017 BMW 340iX
Default 01-16-2021, 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
If you don't have an EWG by definition the settings you're talking about can't help. They all relate to wastegate control which you don't have if all you're hooked up to are the pre throttle pressure sensor and manifold pressure sensor.

I refuse to trust my butt dyno for anything other than "fun factor" since the brain plays so many tricks on you.
Hi Knife,

I agree on the butt dyno. I open the csv file in excel, and select the time and rpm columns, graph them using the scatterplot, select the plot and add a trendline which is linear. I then select the equation for that line. The slope of the line(the number before the x) is acceleration. It is the ratio of rpm change /time change. Simpler is to calculate your change in rpm over the entire change in time, right off the jb4 data. Track those ratios for your WOTs and you get a pretty good number for evaluating how your car performs.

My butt accelerometer has faked me out plenty of times.

Alex


2020 330iX auto sport w/M track handling, JB4 ; 93 octane; Honda S2000; Ninja Z1000.
Reply With Quote
(#212)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboh
Hi Knife,

I agree on the butt dyno. I open the csv file in excel, and select the time and rpm columns, graph them using the scatterplot, select the plot and add a trendline which is linear. I then select the equation for that line. The slope of the line(the number before the x) is acceleration. It is the ratio of rpm change /time change. Simpler is to calculate your change in rpm over the entire change in time, right off the jb4 data. Track those ratios for your WOTs and you get a pretty good number for evaluating how your car performs.

My butt accelerometer has faked me out plenty of times.

Alex
Yea that's fine but I mean literally even seeing better numbers here just means you did better on that particular run, not that whatever you changed is the cause of that (especially if it is a change in a parameter that isn't "connected" to anything)

Vipin's car isn't getting boost to target and while your msp shows far better throttling condition. The question we should be asking ourselves is why is Vipin's car setting throttling issues in the first place.

The "downside" of using additive is you're completely beholden to whatever the dme commands. If at the same rpm sometimes the dme commands 12psi but sometimes commands 15psi there's nothing you can do to get consistent 20psi with additive.

There really isn't a solution that I can think of given the tools we have available to us. We know vipin has access to good enough gas to hit these boost levels safely as we can see from his timing but for whatever reason the dme is not opening up the throttle (which I am guessing is because the jb4 reported boost is close enough to the dme target that the stock dme is doing some throttling)

The jb4 can't underreport TOO much but it can't underreport too little. Unfortunately we have NO way to control this.
Reply With Quote
(#213)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 10:16 AM

Guys I have to go sleep

Hit you up in the morning (evening for you)
Reply With Quote
(#214)
Old
Turboh's Avatar
Turboh Turboh is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 271
Join Date: Nov 2017
Car: 2017 BMW 340iX
Default 01-16-2021, 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
Yea that's fine but I mean literally even seeing better numbers here just means you did better on that particular run, not that whatever you changed is the cause of that (especially if it is a change in a parameter that isn't "connected" to anything)

Vipin's car isn't getting boost to target and while your msp shows far better throttling condition. The question we should be asking ourselves is why is Vipin's car setting throttling issues in the first place.

The "downside" of using additive is you're completely beholden to whatever the dme commands. If at the same rpm sometimes the dme commands 12psi but sometimes commands 15psi there's nothing you can do to get consistent 20psi with additive.

There really isn't a solution that I can think of given the tools we have available to us. We know vipin has access to good enough gas to hit these boost levels safely as we can see from his timing but for whatever reason the dme is not opening up the throttle (which I am guessing is because the jb4 reported boost is close enough to the dme target that the stock dme is doing some throttling)

The jb4 can't underreport TOO much but it can't underreport too little. Unfortunately we have NO way to control this.
Yup, you are right on. I look at the JB4 as just a black box with a couple of wires. I have very little control over what it will do. Even the JB4 maps and descriptions and firmware are at best confusing and incomplete. All I can do is change maps and some settings and quickly see which is best for my likings. I have found that high gains can lead to rough acceleration and throttle valve fluctuations. That does make some sense. Switching to map6 additive has always been the best setup for me on the B46 and B58. Why...I am not sure.....I blame the black box.

Sleep well.


2020 330iX auto sport w/M track handling, JB4 ; 93 octane; Honda S2000; Ninja Z1000.
Reply With Quote
(#215)
Old
VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 187
Join Date: Feb 2020
Car: G20 330i, F25 X3, B9 SQ5, C7.5 A7
Default 01-16-2021, 09:06 PM

I love how two knowledgeable guys banter back and forth. Lots of new info for me to assimilate. And I'm nowhere close unfortunately.

Regarding the throttle issue. Yes. My car is the only car I've seen so far with that issue. I even have it in map 0 now. I believe I had it in map 0 before I installed the EWG too. I did do a map 3 log a while back with the EWG and no throttle issues. But the car didn't feel fast and dragy proved that too. Back to back runs with the current map 6 showed it was much faster with map 6. I believe it might be my car alone having this issue since I'm always jinxed when it comes to automobiles/electronics etc. I seem to have the slowest stock 330i too (14.3s quarter mile times and 6s 0-60 mph times)! Probably my car was somewhat detuned from the factory?

And Alex. Yes. I'll compare your logs to mine. I've done that with some of your old logs too a while back. :D


Current:
2020 BMW 330i xDrive
2018 Audi SQ5 Prestige
2017 Audi A7 Prestige
Reply With Quote
(#216)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-16-2021, 11:07 PM

Vipin's P58_M6_R1_210115_log3rd4thEWG

There's a lot going on here but to me it looks like there's a pretty clear relationship between DME thinking there's an overboost condition (ECU_PSI/DME_BT) and throttle opening.

In the same log we also see that boost1 (the real boost) is undershooting target more and more while the wastegate remains nearly fully closed.

Now I'm getting a out of my element here but if I had to guess then I think this basically represents hitting our turbo's max flow capabilities (choke).

I've also gone and looked through your old logs

For some reason when on absolute map, the JB4 tends to report boost much closer to DMEBT than when on additive (as Alex noticed as well) which leads to the throttle staying closed for much longer. This just seems to be a JB4 thing which hopefully they can fix in later updates.

We CAN go back to additive which will resolve the throttle issue BUT we lose the stability in our absolute pressures.

Again, I don't know which way is "better". Personally I think absolute is the way to go and if BMS can change the way it reports boost to the DME when EWG is installed that would be the "best" solution
Attached Images
  
Reply With Quote
(#217)
Old
VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 187
Join Date: Feb 2020
Car: G20 330i, F25 X3, B9 SQ5, C7.5 A7
Default 01-17-2021, 02:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeEdge87
Vipin's P58_M6_R1_210115_log3rd4thEWG

There's a lot going on here but to me it looks like there's a pretty clear relationship between DME thinking there's an overboost condition (ECU_PSI/DME_BT) and throttle opening.

In the same log we also see that boost1 (the real boost) is undershooting target more and more while the wastegate remains nearly fully closed.

Now I'm getting a out of my element here but if I had to guess then I think this basically represents hitting our turbo's max flow capabilities (choke).

I've also gone and looked through your old logs

For some reason when on absolute map, the JB4 tends to report boost much closer to DMEBT than when on additive (as Alex noticed as well) which leads to the throttle staying closed for much longer. This just seems to be a JB4 thing which hopefully they can fix in later updates.

We CAN go back to additive which will resolve the throttle issue BUT we lose the stability in our absolute pressures.

Again, I don't know which way is "better". Personally I think absolute is the way to go and if BMS can change the way it reports boost to the DME when EWG is installed that would be the "best" solution
I wouldn't be surprised if we've hit my car's turbo's ceiling with just the JB4. So if were to push my car further, what mod would you suggest next? A ca.tted D P?

Btw, if you do want to start a WhatsApp group, let me know. I'll PM you my number.


Current:
2020 BMW 330i xDrive
2018 Audi SQ5 Prestige
2017 Audi A7 Prestige
Reply With Quote
(#218)
Old
KnifeEdge87 KnifeEdge87 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 236
Join Date: Aug 2020
Car: BMW G30 520i 2019
Default 01-17-2021, 05:20 PM

please PM me
ill set up
Reply With Quote
(#219)
Old
VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 187
Join Date: Feb 2020
Car: G20 330i, F25 X3, B9 SQ5, C7.5 A7
Default Yesterday, 07:56 PM

@KnifeEdge87

Posting some logs below with our latest numbers. Only got two logs since it was freezing cold and lots of traffic on the highway. Had to wait for it to clear completely which happened only twice.

Throttle still looks the same.
Attached Files
File Type: csv P58_M6_R1_210122_KEwhatsappvalues1.csv (9.3 KB, 1 views)
File Type: csv P58_M6_R1_210122_KEWhatsappvalues2.csv (8.5 KB, 2 views)


Current:
2020 BMW 330i xDrive
2018 Audi SQ5 Prestige
2017 Audi A7 Prestige
Reply With Quote
(#220)
Old
VipinLJ VipinLJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 187
Join Date: Feb 2020
Car: G20 330i, F25 X3, B9 SQ5, C7.5 A7
Default Yesterday, 09:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VipinLJ
@KnifeEdge87

Posting some logs below with our latest numbers. Only got two logs since it was freezing cold and lots of traffic on the highway. Had to wait for it to clear completely which happened only twice.

Throttle still looks the same.
Other logs


Current:
2020 BMW 330i xDrive
2018 Audi SQ5 Prestige
2017 Audi A7 Prestige
Reply With Quote
(#221)
Old
Turboh's Avatar
Turboh Turboh is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 271
Join Date: Nov 2017
Car: 2017 BMW 340iX
Default Today, 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VipinLJ
Other logs
Hi Vipin,

I think your last two runs are much improved and much faster.
I changed the CVS files to excel along with graphs and summary. Both runs are smoother, with good timing and less throttle action. Trims are getting close to max at top rpm but seem OK. AFRs are fine. Both runs are in the mid to low 60s (rpm/time).
My best runs have been in the 65 range. I did notice that the throttle closed sharply, especially on one run, when the IAT increased sharply. I suspect the louvers in the grill were activated which would definitely cause a valve change. Look at the graph, they coincide. Still thinking the gain should be lowered a bit more to smoothen the engine out...I would try a gain of 12. WGC and FF are following nicely too. Could try raising the FF setting to 45, to bring both closer together. I am not sure if map 6 does auto tune. I seems it does not.

I am working on gain and ff settings too. Keep at it and let me know.

Alex
Attached Files
File Type: xls P58_M6_R1_210117_log3rdturbovalues1.xls (61.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: xls P58_M6_R1_210117_log3rdturbovalues2.xls (60.0 KB, 0 views)


2020 330iX auto sport w/M track handling, JB4 ; 93 octane; Honda S2000; Ninja Z1000.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright © 2007 - 2020, N54tech.com