N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion
(#376)
Old
Torgus Torgus is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 504
Join Date: Jul 2013
Car: 335xi
Default 09-02-2016, 06:14 AM

The number of things wrong and bad practices are astounding.


E92 ACF 6466 + AM Meth / E70 #1 / E70 #2 JBD

Got Boost?
Reply With Quote
(#377)
Old
Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 898
Join Date: Dec 2010
Car: 09 E92 335i
Default 09-02-2016, 09:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus
The number of things wrong and bad practices are astounding.
lol you know, if he actually tested to the vacuum canister delete from the get go instead of 16 pages of BS. I wouldn't actually mind so much.


09 BMW E92 335i: EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
07 BMW R1200S: Shine Yellow / Akrapovic / Ohlins
Reply With Quote
(#378)
Old
DARKBLUE52 DARKBLUE52 is offline
New Member
 
Posts: 16
Join Date: Aug 2016
Car: N54 E92
Default 09-02-2016, 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
lol you know, if he actually tested to the vacuum canister delete from the get go instead of 16 pages of BS. I wouldn't actually mind so much.
Has anyone else done this vacuum canister delete? I do wonder why we need 2.
Reply With Quote
(#379)
Old
Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 898
Join Date: Dec 2010
Car: 09 E92 335i
Default 09-02-2016, 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKBLUE52
Has anyone else done this vacuum canister delete? I do wonder why we need 2.
I have seen a few posts about people doing it while installing inlets to clean up the look of the engine bays. Haven't heard any bad things about this yet.

Since the vacuum pump pulls a constant vacuum, the canister delete likely won't make a huge impact IMO.


09 BMW E92 335i: EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
07 BMW R1200S: Shine Yellow / Akrapovic / Ohlins
Reply With Quote
(#380)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default 09-07-2016, 07:36 PM

Before getting ambitious with replacing "dumped" fuel with the water injected by the WMI system, I thought it a good idea to de-tune the car from its current 20+ timing curve. Another task was to evaluate the fueling system without any help by the WMI. Here are the data log graphs:

Say hello to a dishwater timing map, courtesy of some Off The Shelf file I sourced:




And here are other parameters. Fueling on E85 without assistance from the WMI system.






Most importantly is the fueling corrections behavior. The DME and the fuel injectors deliver pretty even performance across the two cylinder banks.




If we're to introduce a cooling substance that the DME cannot detect then we need to be darned sure all cylinders are receiving the supplemental flow equally. Fortunately, although the WATER in the WMI is undetectable, the methanol is. So the methanol -- and it's impact on trims -- is a bellwether for the water also being flowed. When ramping up the WMI flow, if we see a dovetail in trims between banks, we know the cooling benefits of that water are not being distributed evenly.

So now let's have a look at the WMI system's performance when injecting 900cc post-intercooler. That's a good long ways from the intake plenum, which should allow for a good mixture of air and the atomized WMI fluid.




These logs show slight improvement in the high pressure fuel rail, but are otherwise pretty similar to those with the WMI off. But consistent fuel trims are the most important, and here they are:




But for a slight inconsistency before the WMI flow is established, the trims are at parity. That means good distribution of the water across all cylinders. And the car's performance seems unaffected by this quantity of water injected. Here are the FATs times with and without 900cc of WMI.






With the post-intercooler injection passing muster, we hooked up the throttle-body gizmo described in the previous post. Then we logged that critical fuel trims behavior:




So, yeah. This thing's a botch. The opposed nozzles SHOULD ensure even flow distribution, but clearly bank 1 is getting the lion's share of flow. It's so awful I'm not even going to trouble with the other performance graphs. This setup is useless for my purposes.

But that doesn't mean the test has to end there. No sir! Not when we can try re-positioning the nozzles so they're in parallel on the throttle body spacer rather than opposed from one another. Here's "take 2" on the design:







OK, with the nozzles repositioned and the post-intercooler nozzle active, let's have a look at those data now...




The "usual suspects" data look good. But what about the spray distribution? Fueling trim logs show this:





Alrighty! That's a fuel performance we can work with! So with the hardware dialed in, we can move to pulling out the dumped fuel and evaluate the benefits. Or we can pick up the pieces of the broken motor. We'll know either way soon enough.


Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


Reply With Quote
(#381)
Old
Spxxx's Avatar
Spxxx Spxxx is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 711
Join Date: Mar 2014
Car: E92 335i
Default 09-07-2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
I have seen a few posts about people doing it while installing inlets to clean up the look of the engine bays. Haven't heard any bad things about this yet.

Since the vacuum pump pulls a constant vacuum, the canister delete likely won't make a huge impact IMO.
I run one


M-Sport 135i - N54 - FBO - E60 - Mfactory LSD - MHD - JB4 - SPX Tuned
Reply With Quote
(#382)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default 09-09-2016, 12:57 AM

I thought it might be interesting to see the data from the three above-described fueling scenarios compared graphically. So here that is:




It's also worth noting that the FATs time suffered a bit while flowing 1200+cc of WMI on the unchanged Lambda map. Here it is:




While the car runs strongly and without misfire, I'd say we're finding a hint of quench happening here. That opens up the door to pulling dumped fuel to see if the WMI can take the reins a bit.



Reply With Quote
(#383)
Old
ricecrackers101 ricecrackers101 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 50
Join Date: Jan 2016
Car: 335xi
Default 09-09-2016, 08:50 AM

are you ever going to sell n54 turbos? or just keep posting graphs for who knows how long?
Reply With Quote
(#384)
Old
DennisPacMo's Avatar
DennisPacMo DennisPacMo is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: Nov 2015
Car: 335xi
Default 09-09-2016, 09:26 AM

Yes he will.


.
Reply With Quote
(#385)
Old
jyamona jyamona is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 564
Join Date: Aug 2013
Car: 2010 135i 6MT
Default 09-09-2016, 12:22 PM

Did I just see 20*+ timing curve? hahahahaha


Enjoying the new tables discovered and the XDF progress made? if you'd like. Every bit is appreciated!
Reply With Quote
(#386)
Old
boost junkie boost junkie is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 177
Join Date: Jul 2013
Car: bmw
Default 09-12-2016, 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrackers101
are you ever going to sell n54 turbos? or just keep posting graphs for who knows how long?
Would you buy them if they were for sale?
Reply With Quote
(#387)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default dyno testing the Stg1 turbos - 09-13-2016, 06:25 PM

Rather than relying on only street rpm sweeps to evaluate the WMI system, we booked some dyno time at Portland Speed Industries. It was a very hot day, with temps above 100F in the dyno bay. But with E85 in the tank and the WMI system nicely dialed in, we got ourselves some results to pore over.

First, as always, here are the data logs showing the controls. No changes in software nor conditions for this test.

From the JB4:



From the Torqbyte WMI controller:



With WMI pump amperage as the only variable, here are the dyno graphs:



So the dyno detects a difference the street logs didn't. Odd, but it goes to show that when "gains" of ~10-20hp are thrown around, unless you have a very happy butt-dyno, they're pretty inconsequential.

Food for thought, eh?


Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


Reply With Quote
(#388)
Old
Sered's Avatar
Sered Sered is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 225
Join Date: Jun 2013
Car: 10/06 E92 335i
Default 09-15-2016, 11:27 AM

If you had run those inlets that you bad-mouthed, you could have made about 30-40whp more. Ooops.


2008 E90 6MT sports package, VM 6466g2, BMS PI, Fuel-It Stage 3+, JB4+MHD
2009 E89 Z4 DCT, JB4, MHD flash, DCI
Reply With Quote
(#389)
Old
Spxxx's Avatar
Spxxx Spxxx is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 711
Join Date: Mar 2014
Car: E92 335i
Default 09-15-2016, 01:09 PM

WHY ARE YOU POSTING SO MANY GRAPHS THAT DON'T RELATE TO TURBO PERFORMANCE?


M-Sport 135i - N54 - FBO - E60 - Mfactory LSD - MHD - JB4 - SPX Tuned
Reply With Quote
(#390)
Old
Enfiftyfore's Avatar
Enfiftyfore Enfiftyfore is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 408
Join Date: Jul 2015
Car: 2009 135i
Default 09-15-2016, 01:46 PM

I'm lost. I'm making substantially more power than that on my stock turbos on E60, no meth on just the jb4 E85 BEF.
Reply With Quote
(#391)
Old
v8bait's Avatar
v8bait v8bait is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 426
Join Date: Oct 2011
Car: E92 335i 6MT
Default 09-15-2016, 08:13 PM

Why are you guys still even following this? He doesn't understand or care. SAE dyno with smoothing of 3 is useless on this platform to compare. Re-do the graph in STD with smoothing 5 please. It'll probably make the numbers higher and it'll be less annoying for everybody who is still following this for whatever reason. But really, 90% of the dynos on this platform are STD 5 but he wouldn't know because he doesn't care to look.

Last edited by v8bait; 09-15-2016 at 08:18 PM..
Reply With Quote
(#392)
Old
Enfiftyfore's Avatar
Enfiftyfore Enfiftyfore is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 408
Join Date: Jul 2015
Car: 2009 135i
Default 09-15-2016, 08:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8bait
Why are you guys still even following this? He doesn't understand or care. SAE dyno with smoothing of 3 is useless on this platform to compare. Re-do the graph in STD with smoothing 5 please. It'll probably make the numbers higher and it'll be less annoying for everybody who is still following this for whatever reason. But really, 90% of the dynos on this platform are STD 5 but he wouldn't know because he doesn't care to look.
I agree about the smoothing but, I use and post SAE. STD is something that we need to move away from, collectively. Every single other (reputable) platform uses SAE. STD is inflated and stupid.
Reply With Quote
(#393)
Old
DennisPacMo's Avatar
DennisPacMo DennisPacMo is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: Nov 2015
Car: 335xi
Default 09-16-2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sered
If you had run those inlets that you bad-mouthed, you could have made about 30-40whp more. Ooops.
He is running inlets


.
Reply With Quote
(#394)
Old
AbacusRacingN54 AbacusRacingN54 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 309
Join Date: Aug 2014
Car: 07 335i
Default 09-16-2016, 05:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisPacMo
He is running inlets
That makes it worse......
Reply With Quote
(#395)
Old
DSG03Bolt's Avatar
DSG03Bolt DSG03Bolt is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 125
Join Date: Jun 2016
Car: 08 535i
Default 09-16-2016, 07:11 PM

Wasted my time reading. I was looking to see about the new turbo option.... buuuuuuuut


2008 535i
Jb4 G5 map 2, DCI, vrsf down pipes, fingers crossed the charge pipe holds!
-phoenix racing charge pipe, rev9 intercooler, xs power BOV awaiting install....
Reply With Quote
(#396)
Old
Nitrousbird Nitrousbird is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 117
Join Date: Jun 2015
Car: '07 335i 6MT
Default 09-17-2016, 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfiftyfore
I agree about the smoothing but, I use and post SAE. STD is something that we need to move away from, collectively. Every single other (reputable) platform uses SAE. STD is inflated and stupid.
EXACTLY. Couldn't have said it better than that.
Reply With Quote
(#397)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default was it the mods? or was it the tuning? - 09-17-2016, 03:17 PM




Whoa! That's some impressive gains there! So what's the secret? Was it upgraded inlets? Or maybe outlets? Or maybe some other magic bolt-on that makes the turbos soar?

None of the above, friends. It was tuning. To be more specific it was just a change to the ignition timing advance map. Specifically it was this:




All that added power is owing to one discreet tuning parameter. Everything else -- ambient conditions, fueling type, boost, air/fuel mixtures (and obviously the hardware) -- was held constant.

So when someone crows about a hardware modification that offers gains "with tuning" ...think about getting the tuning first.

Have a good weekend everybody!



Reply With Quote
(#398)
Old
Enfiftyfore's Avatar
Enfiftyfore Enfiftyfore is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 408
Join Date: Jul 2015
Car: 2009 135i
Default 09-17-2016, 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com



Whoa! That's some impressive gains there! So what's the secret? Was it upgraded inlets? Or maybe outlets? Or maybe some other magic bolt-on that makes the turbos soar?

None of the above, friends. It was tuning. To be more specific it was just a change to the ignition timing advance map. Specifically it was this:




All that added power is owing to one discreet tuning parameter. Everything else -- ambient conditions, fueling type, boost, air/fuel mixtures (and obviously the hardware) -- was held constant.

So when someone crows about a hardware modification that offers gains "with tuning" ...think about getting the tuning first.

Have a good weekend everybody!

Literally nobody said any of that.
Reply With Quote
(#399)
Old
dreyo27 dreyo27 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 77
Join Date: Oct 2015
Car: 2007 335i 6mt
Default 09-17-2016, 07:44 PM

So looks like he cracked 430 whp. on a FBO+ car with e85. once you apply the STD correction factor of 0.955 that means 410 whp.

Didn't MHD beat that on a stock car without carbon cleaning and 100k miles on thier e60 tune?

I am certainly hopping they are stalling for time here while they make a a knock off version of GC lol

Or better yet track down the factory that made the Hexon turbos and have them manufacture a few batches for you.
Reply With Quote
(#400)
Old
Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
Tony@VargasTurboTech Tony@VargasTurboTech is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 806
Join Date: Aug 2012
Car: Anything with a Turbo
Default 09-19-2016, 07:41 AM

I come in here from time to time when I need a good laugh. I always end up leaving with severe second hand embarrassment from how terrible this data is. Keep up the good work Doug, you are making it so much easier for other turbo vendors to not worry about you at all. Thanks!


Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
Tony@Vargasturbo.com
www.Vargasturbo.com
Making the world happier one turbocharger at a time
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright 2007 - 2020, N54tech.com