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Beemin Beemin is offline
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Default 588rwtq Stock Turbos - 09-06-2016, 11:20 AM

Made some nice numbers at the dyno day last weekend so I figured I'd share.

Weather- 81F, 25% humidity, 4395 DA (Utah altitude)

Car is an e92 335i 6MT
FBO with MMP inlets/outlets and 95/5 meth/water (dual cm7's 90 degrees apart)
I ran full e85 (stock lpfp, see below for more info)
jb4 and mhd backend which was a blend of the BMS e85 bef and the spx e60 flash along with some custom tables for my setup (which could still use some tweaking on the fueling side)
25 psi tapering to 16 (With the altitude here stockers are very limited up top)
12-14 degrees of timing with stock knock tables but obviously pretty aggressive. This was a glory dyno tune just for fun. Not something I would recommend as a daily by any means, although I've seen worse.

Did three consecutive pulls 30 seconds apart with no tuning. First two in 4th gear and the last in 5th. Surprisingly the 5th gear pull was the worst of the three, it pulled some timing probably because of the heat from back to back pulls.

The car made a best of 486rwhp and 588rwtq I'm pretty stoked on the torque and the power band (450whp for almost 2000 rpm). Interestingly I actually made more power when converting to SAE correction, 488whp.

Log of the first pull is attached. The AFRs and fuel scaler could use some tweaking; you can see the AFR was a bit wacky at spool up. (any advice here? This happens with any tune I run, including on pump gas and low boost, and I have new 02/afr sensors)

Before I get scolded for running full e85 on the stock lpfp, please understand I'm aware of the risks and logged diligently. Yes, the meth was definitely supplementing the fueling, which I know is not ideal but I ran a log on full e85 without meth to see how bad my fuel system struggled and it honestly wasn't as bad as I thought. I only went to 5,500 rpm but afr stayed on target. LPFP clearly struggled but never dropped below 50 and trims stayed in range. I blame it largely on the altitude (less air = less fuel) because I couldn't even get away with a 50/50 mix back in CA. This log showing fueling with no meth is attached in the second post if you are interested.

During the dyno day there were a few FBO e40-e60 + meth n54's and they all made 410-440whp and a stock e92 m3 that made 310whp, so it seemed the dyno was reading about right. Anyway, it was a fun day and the car ran well, but it's already back to a conservative tune #becausedaily
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Last edited by Beemin; 09-06-2016 at 11:29 AM..
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Beemin Beemin is offline
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Default 09-06-2016, 11:25 AM

Here is the log with no meth to show the fueling on stock lpfp and full e85. Obviously not ideal, but not as bad as I thought. I think the altitude is the only reason I was able to get away with it.

Clearly this log isn't great, but I'm posting to show the fueling situation.
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Default 09-06-2016, 11:39 AM

Tire roaster, can't believe your fuel pressure with pure e85 - maybe it's an early winter blend and closer to E70 minimum legally allowed E level.


M-Sport 135i - N54 - FBO - E60 - Mfactory LSD - MHD - JB4 - SPX Tuned
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Beemin Beemin is offline
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Default 09-06-2016, 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spxxx
Tire roaster, can't believe your fuel pressure with pure e85 - maybe it's an early winter blend and closer to E70 minimum legally allowed E level.
Very possible. I did not measure it but the pump I used is typically the best in the area. Also, the fact that I didn't get timing drops at 15 degrees and 20+ psi with stock knock tables tells me it's got a decent ethanol content.

BTW, your tune is pretty much the base for this dyno...
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Default 09-06-2016, 12:24 PM

He is high altitude meaning his dyno is gaining a lot from correction factor. He isn't actually using that much fuel because I bet his uncorrected numbers are probably only like 365 whp. Also at that altitude you can get away with a lot more timing than at normal altitudes....Not trying to take anything away from the OP there just needs to be an asterisk anytime someone from Denver or SLC posts a dyno


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Beemin Beemin is offline
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Default 09-06-2016, 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan
He is high altitude meaning his dyno is gaining a lot from correction factor. He isn't actually using that much fuel because I bet his uncorrected numbers are probably only like 365 whp. Also at that altitude you can get away with a lot more timing than at normal altitudes....Not trying to take anything away from the OP there just needs to be an asterisk anytime someone from Denver or SLC posts a dyno
I agree with some things here. My uncorrected was a little over 400whp, so yes the correction is helping and that is why I'm able to get away with e85, as I already stated in my first post. That being said, STD correction is not perfect, but I've heard it's actually the opposite of what you are saying, that the correction is not as strong as it needs to be for cars in high altitude. Maybe others can chime in but that is what I've been told, and that theory is in line with how low other cars dynoed that day.

I totally disagree that you can get away with more timing at altitude for turbo cars. For NA cars, yes because you lose compression, but for turbo cars you are basically creating your own atmosphere and the turbos have to work harder at altitude creating more opportunity for knock.

I experienced this first hand when I moved up here. In San Diego I could run ACN 91 with the pump bef on map 1 at 15psi and have minimal timing drops. Here in Utah on the same setup timing would flatline so I had to run a custom map 6 at 12 psi to feel decently comfortable until I got meth. I have logs showing this very clearly.

Last edited by Beemin; 09-06-2016 at 05:31 PM..
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Default 09-06-2016, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spxxx
Tire roaster, can't believe your fuel pressure with pure e85 - maybe it's an early winter blend and closer to E70 minimum legally allowed E level.
That has recently changed here in AZ, not sure how many other states too. Minimum is now E54...


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Beemin Beemin is offline
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Default 09-06-2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom77
That has recently changed here in AZ, not sure how many other states too. Minimum is now E54...
I heard Hasn't hit Utah yet thankfully
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Default 09-06-2016, 07:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemin
I agree with some things here. My uncorrected was a little over 400whp, so yes the correction is helping and that is why I'm able to get away with e85, as I already stated in my first post. That being said, STD correction is not perfect, but I've heard it's actually the opposite of what you are saying, that the correction is not as strong as it needs to be for cars in high altitude. Maybe others can chime in but that is what I've been told, and that theory is in line with how low other cars dynoed that day.

I totally disagree that you can get away with more timing at altitude for turbo cars. For NA cars, yes because you lose compression, but for turbo cars you are basically creating your own atmosphere and the turbos have to work harder at altitude creating more opportunity for knock.

I experienced this first hand when I moved up here. In San Diego I could run ACN 91 with the pump bef on map 1 at 15psi and have minimal timing drops. Here in Utah on the same setup timing would flatline so I had to run a custom map 6 at 12 psi to feel decently comfortable until I got meth. I have logs showing this very clearly.
If you don't believe me on the octane read up on what smaller propeller planes do to try to combat the effects of altitude. The TL;DR is that any given octane will have more ability to resist detonation as altitude increases. This is basic ****, have you ever wondered why in higher elevations the octane drops down to 85-91 where as at sea level locations (that aren't California) they have 87-93?

For the record I have lived in Denver, Tampa, and now I'm back in Idaho so I have experience in all altitudes. When I took my (supercharged) Z06 to TX2K it needed almost 15% more fuel in Houston, that's a huge difference.

Finally, if you made 400 uncorrected that's really good, you must have had good DA that day in Utah


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Beemin Beemin is offline
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Default 09-06-2016, 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan
If you don't believe me on the octane read up on what smaller propeller planes do to try to combat the effects of altitude. The TL;DR is that any given octane will have more ability to resist detonation as altitude increases. This is basic ****, have you ever wondered why in higher elevations the octane drops down to 85-91 where as at sea level locations (that aren't California) they have 87-93?

For the record I have lived in Denver, Tampa, and now I'm back in Idaho so I have experience in all altitudes. When I took my (supercharged) Z06 to TX2K it needed almost 15% more fuel in Houston, that's a huge difference.

Finally, if you made 400 uncorrected that's really good, you must have had good DA that day in Utah
I totally agree with you that at higher altitude less octane is required for a NATURALLY ASPIRATED engine. It's a well know fact, but it isn't because the fuel has more ability it resist knock when it's up high, it's because NA engines lose compression at higher elevations and therefore require less octane and make less power.

Turbo engines are not the same in this respect. They are only concerned with air pressure and basically create their own atmosphere and therefore can simulate a low altitude environment by adding boost at high altitude. They don't necessarily lose compression at altitude like an NA engine would, which is the only reason NA engines don't need as much octane.

I used to fly a small NA Piper Cherokee so I understand the logic behind your airplane example (which only pertains to NA airplanes) and also why turbo props are far superior. In fact, water/meth injection was developed during World War II to provide emergency sprint power for FI fighter planes (they benefited from more octane even at very high altitudes). Trust me man, the idea that engines at higher altitude require less octane really only applies to NA engines, generally speaking.

You are totally right about the fueling; less air = less fuel and 400whp on e85 and stock lpfp isn't that far fetched.

Thanks, DA was 4395 that day so ya not too bad.

Last edited by Beemin; 09-06-2016 at 08:04 PM..
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Default 09-06-2016, 09:33 PM

Just came back from a track day with a few friends at Inde motorsports ranch here in AZ. The DA difference between there and Phx is 4000 ft higher. I can tell you the NA cars were effected alot more than the turbo cars for sure.


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Default 09-07-2016, 08:42 AM

Not bad at all! How's timing?


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Beemin Beemin is offline
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Default 09-07-2016, 08:45 AM

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Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Not bad at all! How's timing?
Thanks. The dyno pulls were 12-14 degrees up top.
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