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Default Ethanol Content Sensor Install Location - 08-27-2014, 06:53 AM

I'm thinking that I can install one of these on the low pressure fuel circuit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151318067213...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

And once every tank hook a multimeter & 5v power to it and read the frequency to determine my ethanol mix icoming out of the tank.

Any thoughts? Do you think it will work?


Where could I put this that would be easy to install, but discrete? I have an N55 E90.


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Default 08-27-2014, 08:30 AM

If you can get one installed I'd be happy to help you get the JB4 reading it.

Just keep in mind our low pressure runs 70psi. Make sure the sensor is up to the task.


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Default 08-27-2014, 08:42 AM

SteveAZ would be the one to ask about this. It would be cool if Steve added this option to his kits. The majority of us run mixes from 30% - 65% so I could see how this could be somewhat useful. You would still need to calculate your next fill up but this verifies the existing mix and if there may be any variance of e85 at the station.

This could also be integrated with the jb4 as well with Terry's help.
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Default 08-27-2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
If you can get one installed I'd be happy to help you get the JB4 reading it.

Just keep in mind our low pressure runs 70psi. Make sure the sensor is up to the task.
I have seen most with specs to 10 bar or 145 psi. I'll need to check the specifications on this particular model or find another one. Another concern is the pressure drop, if my LPFP is barely supplying enough fuel, adding a pressure drop will cut that fuel supply a bit, but some models claim only a 1.5 psi pressure drop. And I have seen there are different size models, I'm assuming the one for the truck is a bigger one, but I'll have to verify. Worst case scenario I can spend the $300 for the zeitronix, which I didn't think was worth it, but if the JB4 can read it...

So, is there any chance that the JB4 can read the 50-150hz signal output by the sensor? That would be the way to do this on the cheap & easy. If not, I'll have to condition the hz signal to 0-5v (I assume that's the range you look for).


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Default 08-27-2014, 09:31 AM

I'll have to look in to it on the N55 board. There are no spare PWM channels on it but I may be able to tie one of the inputs in to a counter/interrupt.


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Default 08-27-2014, 09:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Just keep in mind our low pressure runs 70psi. Make sure the sensor is up to the task.
Does the sensor have to be in the line? Or can it just sit at the bottom of the LPFP bucket?


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Default 08-27-2014, 10:17 AM

One good spot might be in the siphon return line in the bucket. The one that clips to the top from the regulator return. It's low pressure and easy to access.


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Default 08-27-2014, 06:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
One good spot might be in the siphon return line in the bucket. The one that clips to the top from the regulator return. It's low pressure and easy to access.
Doing some research and finding the continental/GM sensor reported for as little as $66, but actually about $70 on gmpartsdirect.

These guys have some good info:
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=458384&page=3

Here's a place to get the connector:
http://www.vems.us/ethanol_sens_conn

And I was just thinking after reading some of these threads, why put the sensor in line with the pump and worry about a pressure drop. No problem with putting it in the return line, as it seems Terry has already figured out.

I remember someone mentioning in a post that he would remove his back seat to access the LPFP. Is this for the E90? Would it work for a 2011?


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Default 08-27-2014, 06:20 PM

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Default 08-27-2014, 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tboudre
Doing some research and finding the continental/GM sensor reported for as little as $66, but actually about $70 on gmpartsdirect.

These guys have some good info:
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=458384&page=3

Here's a place to get the connector:
http://www.vems.us/ethanol_sens_conn

And I was just thinking after reading some of these threads, why put the sensor in line with the pump and worry about a pressure drop. No problem with putting it in the return line, as it seems Terry has already figured out.

I remember someone mentioning in a post that he would remove his back seat to access the LPFP. Is this for the E90? Would it work for a 2011?
The only trade off I can see is you'll have 8' of fuel line between the regulator and the injectors. So the E85 reading will always be "delayed" a few hundred ML of fuel consumption. e.g. the sensor will see the E85 before the engine does. If doing E85 auto tuning we can always add in a delay to the reading I suppose.


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Default 08-28-2014, 02:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I'll have to look in to it on the N55 board. There are no spare PWM channels on it but I may be able to tie one of the inputs in to a counter/interrupt.
Only the N55 Terry? what about the N54?


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Default 08-28-2014, 06:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
The only trade off I can see is you'll have 8' of fuel line between the regulator and the injectors. So the E85 reading will always be "delayed" a few hundred ML of fuel consumption. e.g. the sensor will see the E85 before the engine does. If doing E85 auto tuning we can always add in a delay to the reading I suppose.
I'm looking at the exploded parts diagrams on realoem.com, and I'm not getting a clear picture of what's going on here. I know that the fuel pump is in the tank. I'm assuming that the pressure regulator is near the HPFP, and the return line would come from the regulator in the engine compartment all the way back to the tank. From your statement, I'm now thinking that the regulator may be closer to the tank? Either way, I'm good with reading the E% in the return line because the content in the tank won't change except when fueling. Given a few minutes for the fuel to mix adequately, the E% should not change. Some consideration would be taken if doing a dyno and testing different concentrations of ethanol. For my purposes, I just want to make sure I don't accidentally exceed the capacity of my LPFP. But, if you're bringing the information in anyway, use it in the tune! In the case that the regulator is in the engine compartment, while at idle, most fuel will go down the return line. The most current percentage will be waiting right there at the HPFP to be injected. In the case that the regulator is by the tank (with a short return), there will be all the fuel in the line that could potentially be a different concentration, and may not change out until several minutes of idling or moderate throttle. I'll take some things apart and try to figure out where I can put this thing over the Labor Day weekend. Still open for suggestions.


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Default 08-28-2014, 06:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHECKERED
Does the sensor have to be in the line? Or can it just sit at the bottom of the LPFP bucket?
Here's a good description of the fuel supply system. This is for N54, hoping nothing has changed to the N55.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512759

BUT! I see where the regulator and return line are, inside the tank (unless I'm mistaken). You don't want to put any components not rated for a hazardous area inside a gas tank. The plastic wouldn't be rated for that environment, and the electrical connections wouldn't be rated for submersion.

Look at the first picture in the link. At the very end in the line that has the low pressure fuel sensor, there is a connection point. Maybe we can tie in here. How hard is that to get to?


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Default 08-28-2014, 06:56 AM

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...55&hg=13&fg=15

Can we replace #10 & go in and out of the ethanol sensor?


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Default 08-28-2014, 08:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tboudre
I'm looking at the exploded parts diagrams on realoem.com, and I'm not getting a clear picture of what's going on here. I know that the fuel pump is in the tank. I'm assuming that the pressure regulator is near the HPFP, and the return line would come from the regulator in the engine compartment all the way back to the tank. From your statement, I'm now thinking that the regulator may be closer to the tank? Either way, I'm good with reading the E% in the return line because the content in the tank won't change except when fueling. Given a few minutes for the fuel to mix adequately, the E% should not change. Some consideration would be taken if doing a dyno and testing different concentrations of ethanol. For my purposes, I just want to make sure I don't accidentally exceed the capacity of my LPFP. But, if you're bringing the information in anyway, use it in the tune! In the case that the regulator is in the engine compartment, while at idle, most fuel will go down the return line. The most current percentage will be waiting right there at the HPFP to be injected. In the case that the regulator is by the tank (with a short return), there will be all the fuel in the line that could potentially be a different concentration, and may not change out until several minutes of idling or moderate throttle. I'll take some things apart and try to figure out where I can put this thing over the Labor Day weekend. Still open for suggestions.
Didn't read the entire post above as I'm on my way out. But the regulator is in the driver side tank, 2' away from the low pressure pump. A single line from the regulator goes up to the high pressure pump in the front. The regulator return goes back to the top of the bucket, along a siphon jet return to move fuel from driver side to passenger side.


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Default 08-28-2014, 08:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramjet
Only the N55 Terry? what about the N54?
N54 has a spare capture compare channel or two IIRC. No one seems to want to install a sensor setup. If anyone ever does we'll look in to reading the signal.


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Default 08-28-2014, 12:56 PM

So, from my reading, the amplitude of the pulse is the temperature and the frequency is the ethanol content. Is there any value in getting the fuel temperature into the JB4? If you could read this signal directly, could you read the frequency AND amplitude?


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Default 08-28-2014, 01:08 PM

Mine plan is to mount this right before the HPFP hardline, it is designed to go inline and I have built a few custom fuel systems utilizing OEM connectors and this should not be too hard to add.


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Default 08-28-2014, 09:28 PM

A lot of questions here.

First I would not put that in the tank. You'd have to run wires to it and I wouldn't want to submerge it. Second are you wanting it for real time tuning or just verifying content? You guys seem to be going two different directions. Third any significant pressure drop or resistance after the regulator will cause the regulator to bleed off more fuel. The DME will try and compensate for that down low so while you may not see a big pressure drop...you could be bleeding off flow that could lead to a much larger pressure drop up top due to reduced flow. Forth, the fuel bucket on the 03/12 and later n55's is different and the regulator is on the passenger side.

As an experiment...I couldn't see the connections on that ebay listing, but if they are both male 5/16" quick connects, you could easily install it under the drivers side foot well if you can find a female 5/16" quick connect union. Ideally one would be male and one would be female and it would be plug and play in that regard. I don't know that I'd want to install it at the LPFP sensor as there is a lot of heat there.



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Default 08-29-2014, 02:49 PM

I have the prcoede flex fuel kit. They disconnect the hose just under the (drivers side on your car) and run it from the sensor mounted on the shock tower to the hpfp. From there a new hose runs from under the footwell to the sensor. The procede hijacks the speedo and shows the E%. Eg 70kmph is 70% Ethanol.

Very clean setup, very plug and play. Also excellent for my vehicle since that is the same side the ecu is on.

Downside is it takes a km to register a change in the Ethanol in the tank, upside is that it is closer to the injectors so there isn't such a delay on what is read and what is in the motor.

But realistically, if I am changing the E content, I just wait until the E% stabilises and then reset adaptations. If I am not changing the % then it doesn't matter.
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Default 08-29-2014, 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kabnine
I have the prcoede flex fuel kit. They disconnect the hose just under the (drivers side on your car) and run it from the sensor mounted on the shock tower to the hpfp. From there a new hose runs from under the footwell to the sensor. The procede hijacks the speedo and shows the E%. Eg 70kmph is 70% Ethanol.

Very clean setup, very plug and play. Also excellent for my vehicle since that is the same side the ecu is on.

Downside is it takes a km to register a change in the Ethanol in the tank, upside is that it is closer to the injectors so there isn't such a delay on what is read and what is in the motor.

But realistically, if I am changing the E content, I just wait until the E% stabilises and then reset adaptations. If I am not changing the % then it doesn't matter.
It is $800, these sensors have plug and play fuel connectors, it would also be much cleaner and come in at under $100. I need to get off my ass and install the sensor.


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Default 08-29-2014, 03:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by threethirtyfive
It is $800, these sensors have plug and play fuel connectors, it would also be much cleaner and come in at under $100. I need to get off my ass and install the sensor.
You do realise Vishnu use a sub $100 GM sensor right? Made in Mexico. Has the fittings on the sensor, you just need the bundy fittings for the hoses.

The kit is over priced to the max. Doesn't mean its not a good way to do it, especially if you are just buying the components, which I would say would come to well under $200 by the time you use all the right hoses and fittings.

EDIT: In fact that is the exact sensor they use in the first post.

Last edited by kabnine; 08-29-2014 at 03:39 PM..
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Default 08-29-2014, 04:22 PM

I actually bought one of these a couple years ago, never got around to finding the electrical connector though to set it up. I nominate Fuel-It to release a kit.
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Default 08-30-2014, 03:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
I actually bought one of these a couple years ago, never got around to finding the electrical connector though to set it up. I nominate Fuel-It to release a kit.
Investigating the options.....

I'm setting up another experimental fuel system on my car next week and will see what parts to order and go from there. No promises, but it seems like a natural fit given our business model.

Are we talking about full integration or just for verification?

I'm down for verification, not so much for integration but am open to discussing it.



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Last edited by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!; 08-30-2014 at 03:24 PM..
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Car: 2011 BMW 335xi E90 N55
Default 08-30-2014, 05:44 PM

Check this out. I park daily at a valet garage downtown for work and guess what... They lost my key. So, I'm in sort of a limbo for installing anything new (and going to pull everything off) until after my trip to the dealer. I hope to get this resolved this week. In the mean time, I'll order the ethanol sensor and hoses and keep looking for a solution for the signal conditioning (if we need it).

SteveAZ, I'm really just wanting verification as far as my needs are concerned. Because my erratic access to E85 makes it hard to keep up with what I have in the tank. I've got a couple of other mods I want to do before the fuel pump, so I want to make sure I don't exceed the pump capacity by keeping an eye on the E%. I think it would also be valuable in evaluating your performance, maybe you'll see that you get more power or efficiency at different E%.

Maybe when you switch into map 5, you could have a lower initial value for the Avg Ign based on the E%.


2011 335i xDrive ///M-Sport LeMans Blue Navigation iDrive 15% Tint N55 E90 - BMS Intake, Le Mans Blue Grilles, Le Mans Blue Rear Diffuser, Alpina B3 TCU Flash, Misc Coding, Matte Black Badge, Gloss Black Exhaust Tips, Blue Calipers*, VRSF Charge Pipe*, Cyba Scoops*, JB4 ISO 5.5, Sport Oil Cooler Valve, FlexFuel (Fuel Rail Pressure) Wires, GoFastBits DV+, Ethanol Content Sensor - No problems up to E70 fuel mix
* Painted 7251 Cobalt Blue Metallic - Matches LeMans Blue
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