N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion
(#501)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default 12-10-2016, 03:59 PM


There is no question the water methanol system is supporting the car's fueling system. Take a look at the comparisons:

Stock fueling system with E85 versus with the supplement of 1200cc/min water methanol




The pressures both drop shortly after boost onset, but then the WMI's impact becomes evident. We determined the WMI pump was coming on too late:




We changed the mapping on the WMI controller so the pressure would come up earlier in the rev range.




With the WMI coming on earlier, fuel pressures do not drop as much after onset. Even when boost is raised at that point.




Thx


Reply With Quote
(#502)
Old
JuniorB JuniorB is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 403
Join Date: Mar 2016
Car: 2007 e60 5 series
Default 12-10-2016, 07:27 PM

Sorry,about the spelling,I know meth makes the power,I've read to many story's about meth and engine damage,I happen to be close to one of two e85 stations in mass,so that would be my dedicated fueling. What ever turbo I run,I'll be running nitrous,I love it,but I need a n54 to get were I want to be
Reply With Quote
(#503)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default F21Bi data logs on raised boost - 12-13-2016, 01:32 AM

Given the risks of pushing the airflows past the fueling system's limits, we're going to govern boost until the high pressure fuel pump has spun up enough pressure to recover. So on E85 at least, we're capped to only ~20psi at boost onset. Not that this is such a hardship. The car moves out right smartly on its refined boost map curve.

Logs a-go-go:






And the RPM sweep performance is a notch better with the WMI system back to pumping 200cc into each cylinder:




Here's that RPM sweep converted to miles per hour:




Last but not, least, here is the 4200-6500rpm performance on our 6MT test car. Manual transmission. With that leggy 3.08 ratio:




I know that the majority of people reading this thread really don't get much from these 4200-6500rpm stats. Although it's a common metric in the community for the older Audi 2.7T twin turbo cars, it's not as well known among all of you. Nevertheless, I know that certain folks will be quietly checking that <2.5 time. They'll be looking to see how it stacks up against, shall we say, other options. And they're going to have to once again re-think what $2,000 should buy in this market.

We've already documented how durable these turbos are. How committed to reliability we are. And it's now clear these turbos are another thing: damned fast.

Thanks

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo




Reply With Quote
(#504)
Old
JuniorB JuniorB is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 403
Join Date: Mar 2016
Car: 2007 e60 5 series
Default 12-13-2016, 07:33 PM

That's a very nice sweep 425hp is very nice on the street,with a nice shot of nitrous,now we're talking..
Reply With Quote
(#505)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default FrankenTurbo F21Bi Dyno Test #1: Stage1 boost levels - 12-16-2016, 09:51 PM




The F21Bis' first trip to the dynojet was to find out two things:

How much torque could the car manage on its current E85 + WMI fueling setup?
How much power would it make if we emulated the boost levels we saw with the "Stage1-like-objects"?

Here are the data logs showing all parameters between dyno tests for the differing turbo designs.



Boost, ignition advance & fuel mixtures were all at parity. IATs differed by 10˚F. The High Pressure Fuel values dip dangerously low with both turbos. Without a doubt, the midrange airflows are overmatching the injectors.

Now for the data coming from the Torqbyte controller:




With boost values again being measured at parity by the Torqbyte WMI controller's logger, airflows produced by the two designs dovetailed apart. But the improvement in exhaust backpressures achieved by the MixedFlow F21 turbine rotor is even more unmistakable.

The DynoJet captured these results, with N54 community-friendly STD corrections.

Stage1 turbos versus F21Bi Prototypes:




Because the RPM pickup wasn't working when baselining the Stage1 turbos, it takes a bit of math to capture the torque values afterwards. But when you lay the FrankenTurbos' torque performance against that of the Stage1 designs, here is the result:




And for those who "want it all", here are the whp and wtq all together now.




So a couple takeaways:

1. (On the current E85 setup) it looks as though we can't cross the 500whtq boundary without depending on the WMI system for fuel. That's a risky way to go; rather than push things we'll modulate boost where it needs to be.

2. Boost pressures alone do not tell the full performance story. At 6000+rpms, when both turbos were boosting 17psi, the airflows through the motor differed by a lot. Basically the Stage1-style turbos are getting shellacked by the MixedFlow F21s -- in their own boost range. The FrankenTurbos flow more air, have reduced exhaust back-pressures, and make way more power.

Bonus takeaway: the FrankenTurbos are tougher. Unlike these Stage1 designs -- with their TD03-spec internals carried over from the stockers -- they aren't SMOKING like crazy after a short round of testing. That's right. The "Stage1-like-objects" were vomiting oil into the exhaust stream at the time of their testing a month ago. Barfing as they were, they boosted just as well as they ever did, but their internal bearing parts had clearly given up the ghost. I'll publish their autopsy later.

So. Current fueling setup? No more than 500whtq. FrankenTurbos versus their category competition? They make more power and do it with less component stress, and they do it with much beefier components... and they do it without breaking.

One more thought for this post: With the luxury of a free-standing mass airflow metering system, I'm able to do an analysis of the engine's airflows versus its performance on the dyno. So again using a bit of math, we converted the airmass from grams-per-second to grams-per-engine revolution. This calculation nets us a graph that looks like this:




So what's that graph look like? That's right gang! A torque curve! In fact it looks a LOT like this car's torque curve. Here are the airflow values overlaid those for torque.




This graph has the DynoJet's cursor isolating comparable torque output at either end of the rev range. And the grams per engine revolution register very closely for a good portion of the time. But in the upper range the torque output starts to lag behind the airflows. It will be interesting to see if this inefficiency worsens with increased boost. But this overlay makes me think these turbos are very much in their happy place at this power level.

Next, we say good bye to a friend. Recently deceased. Cause: excessive smoking.


Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


Reply With Quote
(#506)
Old
Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 898
Join Date: Dec 2010
Car: 09 E92 335i
Default 12-17-2016, 01:08 AM

Stock fuel system at 500whp with e85 and meth as band aid fuel... alright... totally a good idea... why am I even reading all this crap...


09 BMW E92 335i: EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
07 BMW R1200S: Shine Yellow / Akrapovic / Ohlins
Reply With Quote
(#507)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default 12-17-2016, 02:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Stock fuel system at 500whp with e85 and meth as band aid fuel... alright... totally a good idea... why am I even reading all this crap...
Good question. Why not spend the weekend contemplating it.


Reply With Quote
(#508)
Old
Trucker1964's Avatar
Trucker1964 Trucker1964 is offline
New Member
 
Posts: 20
Join Date: Nov 2015
Car: 2008 335 xi
Default 12-17-2016, 07:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
Good question. Why not spend the weekend contemplating it.
1:54 A.M.
Reply With Quote
(#509)
Old
DennisPacMo's Avatar
DennisPacMo DennisPacMo is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: Nov 2015
Car: 335xi
Default 12-17-2016, 08:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
Good question. Why not spend the weekend contemplating it.
Hahahaha
And they hate you for not responding
Great info Doug


.
Reply With Quote
(#510)
Old
R.G. R.G. is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 92
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default 12-17-2016, 12:50 PM

Doug,
There seems to be a "stage 1 like object" referenced in the testing. Stage 1 upgrades from vendors are approx. ~$1400. Is that the anticipated price point of the tested turbos and why it is being used as the side by side?


It is great in house testing is happening but completely disregarding any info already available from the hard work of so many throughout the platform development I think is a bit of a slap in the face to everyone involved. That doesn't mean regard everything as fact and avoid testing on your own but acknowledging it during in house research should not be avoided. That is how platforms continue to develop. Reinventing the wheel over and over gets us no where.
Nearing a year since this thread was created and maybe I missed it but has anything new been discovered? If you used what we already know and built on that info for the last year it would have been great for the platform.
Best of luck.
Reply With Quote
(#511)
Old
DennisPacMo's Avatar
DennisPacMo DennisPacMo is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: Nov 2015
Car: 335xi
Default 12-17-2016, 01:01 PM

His other posts have stated that the upgraded new cast units are supposed to retail around the $2,000 mark. The Stage 1 won't be an available option. He just wanted to see what some modded stock units would do. Mostly for comparison and testing.


.
Reply With Quote
(#512)
Old
ShocknAwe ShocknAwe is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 775
Join Date: Sep 2012
Car: 135i
Default 12-17-2016, 02:09 PM

What is the goal for these units? I seem to remember a statement to the effect of safe DD operation in the range of 450-500 on pump alone. Wondering if that is still the story given the use of ethanol and huge volumes of meth sprayed in the testing so far.


2010 135i M-Sport 6MT Jet Black
N54 | Build Thread
Reply With Quote
(#513)
Old
Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 898
Join Date: Dec 2010
Car: 09 E92 335i
Default 12-17-2016, 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorB
I've read the thread and hear of conflicting info,but didn't he already s y show what there capabilities are? Is rather run the e85 than method,ill take it as a good base line
Having trouble decoding the language here...

I do like the power delivery posted in his chart, but a 500whp figure with full E85 plus meth is rather a poor number for upgraded turbos (especially if these are the ones with casted manifolds) considering people have been hitting those number back in 2012-2013 with just pump gas and meth... I bet the turbos are capable of hitting much higher numbers if he lowers the ethanol content or upgrade the fuel system, but I am sure I am not the first guy who had told him that... along with whole bunch of other stuff

Anyway, why don't you post up the actual csv log files, instead of these poorly presented charts shown here, and let the readers form their own opinions? Given your history, who knows if these data points that you have presented are unmolested or not...


09 BMW E92 335i: EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
07 BMW R1200S: Shine Yellow / Akrapovic / Ohlins
Reply With Quote
(#514)
Old
A418t81's Avatar
A418t81 A418t81 is offline
One tire fire
 
Posts: 87
Join Date: Jan 2008
Car: E92 335, 6MT
Default 12-18-2016, 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Having trouble decoding the language here...

I do like the power delivery posted in his chart, but a 500whp figure with full E85 plus meth is rather a poor number for upgraded turbos (especially if these are the ones with casted manifolds) considering people have been hitting those number back in 2012-2013 with just pump gas and meth...

Anyway, why don't you post up the actual csv log files, instead of these poorly presented charts shown here, and let the readers form their own opinions? Given your history, who knows if these data points that you have presented are unmolested or not...
Are you paying attention? He is still emulating the "stage 1 plus" turbo boost curve for as close as an "apples to apples" comparison as possible. The boost pressure is intentionally falling off on the top end just like the stock frame turbos. It's literally everywhere in his posts, if you actually read and interpret the data instead of scrolling over the charts and then vomiting some crap back up.

Of course these turbos are capable of more high rpm power. He hasn't even explored that in his forum posts yet. But again, the point of these turbos seems to be good, usable power with reasonable boost pressures and excellent transient response, cost, and superior reliability over any of the stock frame options (potentially over the stock turbos themselves) at the same price point. There's a large market for this type of upgrade.

I too, however, am interested to see power production on pump gas (or an ~E30 blend) without all the ethanol and meth as a fueling bandaid.


'18 Magnetic Gray Raptor
'19 GT3 RS Weissach
'09 997.1 6MT: FBO, 65mm VTGs. 730 whp
'18 Nardo Gray RS3 APR stage 2, 10.72 @ 130
Reply With Quote
(#515)
Old
Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 898
Join Date: Dec 2010
Car: 09 E92 335i
Default 12-19-2016, 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81
Are you paying attention? He is still emulating the "stage 1 plus" turbo boost curve for as close as an "apples to apples" comparison as possible. The boost pressure is intentionally falling off on the top end just like the stock frame turbos. It's literally everywhere in his posts, if you actually read and interpret the data instead of scrolling over the charts and then vomiting some crap back up.

Of course these turbos are capable of more high rpm power. He hasn't even explored that in his forum posts yet. But again, the point of these turbos seems to be good, usable power with reasonable boost pressures and excellent transient response, cost, and superior reliability over any of the stock frame options (potentially over the stock turbos themselves) at the same price point. There's a large market for this type of upgrade.

I too, however, am interested to see power production on pump gas (or an ~E30 blend) without all the ethanol and meth as a fueling bandaid.
Ok, fair point. But how useful and accurate are these test if he is already hitting the limits of his fuel system??? Would be much more helpful if he stick with 93 or low mix of ethanol. I bet we would be seeing much bigger difference in dyno numbers too, since e85's lower exhaust temp can mask the inefficiency that occurs when pushing the tiny stock turbos to their limits.

Another point to address is that there is nothing inherently wrong with reusing the stock manifold and housing and fitting a larger CHRA and turbine like what most vendors have been doing for years. The problem is that their quality control (especially when it comes to machining those stock components) is piss poor. Compounded by people who are pushing those turbos beyond their efficiency range and careless installation, it is only nature we see a much higher failure rate. Not knowing any kind of information on the QA process from this vendor, it is pretty silly to say these turbos will have superior reliability comparing to the others.


09 BMW E92 335i: EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
07 BMW R1200S: Shine Yellow / Akrapovic / Ohlins
Reply With Quote
(#516)
Old
DennisPacMo's Avatar
DennisPacMo DennisPacMo is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: Nov 2015
Car: 335xi
Default 12-19-2016, 02:38 PM

You can view his datazap logs on his FB page I believe.


.
Reply With Quote
(#517)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default Stock TD03 bearing failure - 12-20-2016, 07:06 PM

Smoking turbos are a familiar sight to the N54 platform. So when the "Stage1-like-objects" started smoking after only a few dozen test pulls, I was very interested in diagnosing the problem. And once the turbos were out of the car, it was easy to find the problem. A completely failed thrust assembly.

The thrust washer and underside of the bearing:




The flinger sleeve and the top of the bearing:




The steel flinger sleeve and thrust washer had drilled into the bearing's material, resulting in axial play along the rotating assembly. That play caused the lower piston ring at the bottom of the rotor shaft to slide up and down in its seat, quickly damaging both the rotor and the machined bore of the bearing housing. Once that damage was done, the rear seal no longer worked. And this is what that looks like:




This turbo failed within weeks of being put into service. And when it did, it joined the inglorious ranks of countless other "upgrade" turbos that have been delivered to N54 customers with inadequately specced parts. The TD03 thrust assembly is a botch for high performance modification. It fails. And then your car belches smoke.

The F21Bi turbos are different. Not one component of the original TD03 assembly is retained. In fact, our assemblies' parts exceed even TD04 specification. Every one. The thrust assembly. The journal bearing. The rear seal. The rotor shaft stem. All parts are bigger, heavier and more robust. Not just more so than TD03. I'm talking better than TD04.

That's just one part of what you get for your 1,999 dollar bill with the F21Bi. The most robust, reliable stock-frame turbochargers ever offered on this platform.

Thanks

Doug Harper



Reply With Quote
(#518)
Old
ShocknAwe ShocknAwe is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 775
Join Date: Sep 2012
Car: 135i
Default 12-20-2016, 07:52 PM

Might be interesting if you reevaluate inlets with these new turbos. Maybe you already have. Just a thought.


2010 135i M-Sport 6MT Jet Black
N54 | Build Thread
Reply With Quote
(#519)
Old
JuniorB JuniorB is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 403
Join Date: Mar 2016
Car: 2007 e60 5 series
Default 12-21-2016, 02:50 AM

I'm building my n54 to put in my e60 and looking for a clean strong set of turbos. From the looks of it all, I would say these are a stage 1 with a lot of internal upgrades. Isn't that what we look for in a turbo?,strong internals? Are the power houses,done that look like it as the test shows,I saw his Dyno with e85 and meth,that looks like a base line . For th money,these look like a step up from stock,with strong internals. I plan on running nitrous in my car with the twins,so they look more appealing to me,sorry for the confusion . I'm know there are others making substancial power,but your stacking thousands in fuel to compensate,at that power,I'm sure longevity takes a toll.
Reply With Quote
(#520)
Old
doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
whoosh
 
Posts: 132
Join Date: May 2015
Car: Minivan, mountain bike
Default reaching for the F21Bis' limits (on this fuel system) - 12-27-2016, 11:54 PM

Earlier in the thread I've covered the "torque budget" on the current setup. The car is running E85, which puts real demands on the current fueling setup. And it's also running a pretty conventional drivetrain. It's running only a Stock Plus clutch, borrowed from the 335xi. It's running a stock differential. So while the tires are chunked up to 275 tread widths, traction is not what it could be. The suspension is completely stock. No stiffening with upgraded bushings or control arms. Not yet. All of these factors have a way of forcing the car to a 500whtq maximum. And in this man's opinion, 500whtq is hardly being told to eat your peas. During third gear wide open throttle pulls the car struggles to maintain traction. It floats left to right as the suspension parts strain. In short, 500whtq is a bit of a character builder on a mid-level project car. So I'm moving forward with testing the turbos within those limits.

Here are the data logs for the turbos on a higher-output boost duty map, compared to the settings emulating the Stage1 turbos:





I governed boost at onset to avoid crossing that 500 value as we did in the last pull. But I then gradually fed boost duty to the turbos through the midrange to cling as close to our "budget" for as long as the turbos would handle. So the ask was 500 wheel torque. The answer?




The car came back with a very willing answer. 500whtq is clearly available with these turbos before 3500rpms. And it carries past 5500rpms. That's a nice curve for anyone not interested in spinning their motors all the way to redline. With wheel hp values added, we see power holds above 500 until a hair before redline.




Since the F21Bi turbos are being priced to compete with new, unused OEM turbos, here is a look at how these hybrids stack up to the TD03s in our own testing:

Wheel torque



And wheel horsepower.




Lined up against one another on the same dyno equipment, the F21Bi turbos clearly show output superiority to the OEM designs. This is in addition to the top-to-bottom component re-specification we've done with our hybrids. Unlike the stock units, these turbos were designed to be working at this level. The flimsy TD03 components found in the OEMs and Stage1s make them a bad risk for 500whp ambitions.

Thx

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo





Reply With Quote
(#521)
Old
AbacusRacingN54 AbacusRacingN54 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 309
Join Date: Aug 2014
Car: 07 335i
Default 12-28-2016, 06:25 AM

Same amount of timing between your last graphs? Stock turbos and ur "f" series?
Reply With Quote
(#522)
Old
dreyo27 dreyo27 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 77
Join Date: Oct 2015
Car: 2007 335i 6mt
Default 12-28-2016, 11:14 AM

Personaly I think it's stupid of him to reinvent the wheel. I am hoping that the first batch of testers get a quality tune on these. There is a market for a 2k turbos that's reliable at 25 psi and around 550whp, assuming thier warranty is 2-3 years lol.
On the other hand, you can get mmp turbos for 1k more and we all know they would just be relaxing at 25psi lol.
Reply With Quote
(#523)
Old
dreyo27 dreyo27 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 77
Join Date: Oct 2015
Car: 2007 335i 6mt
Default 12-28-2016, 11:15 AM

Also Doug can you upload your logs to datazap? We are quite used to looking at those.
Reply With Quote
(#524)
Old
ShocknAwe ShocknAwe is offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 775
Join Date: Sep 2012
Car: 135i
Default 12-28-2016, 12:04 PM

Still unclear what the end target is for these once all testing is finished. Not really interested in relying on both methanol injection and e85. Probably going to have to decide on whether to go with some kind of cast twins or a medium sized twin scroll single setup soon as stocks don't have much left in them.

What's the point of these? Don't say moderate power for under $2k. Can't imagine I'm the only one wondering.


2010 135i M-Sport 6MT Jet Black
N54 | Build Thread
Reply With Quote
(#525)
Old
dreyo27 dreyo27 is offline
Junior Member
 
Posts: 77
Join Date: Oct 2015
Car: 2007 335i 6mt
Default 12-28-2016, 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe
Still unclear what the end target is for these once all testing is finished. Not really interested in relying on both methanol injection and e85. Probably going to have to decide on whether to go with some kind of cast twins or a medium sized twin scroll single setup soon as stocks don't have much left in them.

What's the point of these? Don't say moderate power for under $2k. Can't imagine I'm the only one wondering.
I just hope they can make OEM quality reliable power.
If you want modest power tou can pick up the on3 kit for 2k without intercooler, and chargepipe.

It sux that he is running into the fueling issue when there are so many ways around it.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright 2007 - 2020, N54tech.com