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Default 6AT Fluid Cooler Adapter Fittings - 11-01-2015, 11:58 AM

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PR3CI5N335i PR3CI5N335i is offline
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Default 11-01-2015, 12:08 PM

Nice work. What does this kit cost? My engine is currently out of my car for the next few weeks so this might be something I'm interested in. Also, what whp are you currently at?
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Default 11-01-2015, 12:25 PM

Thanks! I probably wont offer a complete kit since there are so many different bumper configurations with these cars that could possibly affect cooler orientation. I'm just offering the fittings that make it a much easier and cleaner DIY. The fittings will probably go for around $125 a set depending on how many are interested.

I'm still fine tuning my car but it's currently putting down around 600whp @23psi on 93 octane and a custom port methanol injection system I designed incorporating the Aquamist HFS-4. I run 70/30 meth/distilled water by weight not volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PR3CI5N335i
Nice work. What does this kit cost? My engine is currently out of my car for the next few weeks so this might be something I'm interested in. Also, what whp are you currently at?
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Default 11-01-2015, 02:56 PM

Really interesting and great progress man!!

I've got a few questions for you with this configuration, firstly, is your car a dedicated track car?

1. What's the ideal operating temperature of the transmission?
2. Removal of the transmission heater will obviously lead to slower reaching of optimal operating temps, planning on timing this @ idle & cruising operation?
3. Did you consider installing the cooler inline/parallel to the heater?
4. The said Heater was thought to be a heat exchanger, is this not the case?
5. Pressure drops, how are you monitoring this (if any)?

Really interested in how you get on with this. Was looking into options with my DCT and there aren't any!
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JBacon335 JBacon335 is offline
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Default 11-01-2015, 05:27 PM

this is awesome, might help these transmissions take the power they've been getting thrown for a little bit longer
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Default 11-01-2015, 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ink
Really interesting and great progress man!!

I've got a few questions for you with this configuration, firstly, is your car a dedicated track car?

1. What's the ideal operating temperature of the transmission?
2. Removal of the transmission heater will obviously lead to slower reaching of optimal operating temps, planning on timing this @ idle & cruising operation?
3. Did you consider installing the cooler inline/parallel to the heater?
4. The said Heater was thought to be a heat exchanger, is this not the case?
5. Pressure drops, how are you monitoring this (if any)?

Really interested in how you get on with this. Was looking into options with my DCT and there aren't any!
I can help with a couple of these questions.

1) Ive always heard 180 for ATF, but thats a simple change of tstat.

3) The bottom quarter of the radiator circulates ATF. You install the cooler in series to get additional cooling capacity and to not mix ~210 degree ATF with 165-180 degree ATF at the transmission. It also allows normal heat up of the transmission when you install a bypass tstat.

4) I still dont know what the heater block is or does exactly, but I do know that the ATF circulates through the radiator. As is typical with automatic cars.

5) I have this question as well, 16 rows is big for an ATF cooler.


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Default 11-01-2015, 07:23 PM

Awesome job Jason! great work as usual


Have a single turbo and/or tired of burning up O2 sensors? Ask me about the new ADV O2 sensor retro kits!

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Default 11-01-2015, 07:30 PM

Thanks!

Track car - No and don't plan on tracking. Might do some NFZ type stuff next year though.

1) Everything I've seen and researched across several AT platforms is that optimum operating temps are 160F - 170F so I chose the 165F tstat made by Improved Racing.

2) Yes but during testing, the AT fluid only took ~7 more minutes under idle to reach the 40C requirement for filling the trans with fluid with the new cooler inline compared to stock. However, it makes temp much faster under load.

3) No due to space and system complexity and it's not required because I'm not concerned with slightly higher viscosity for a little longer. Plus Red Line fluid has very good low operating temp performance.

4) The stock system is meant to heat the fluid up rapidly for emissions and efficiency purposes. Less viscosity = less friction = better emissions and efficiency. Again, I'm not concerned with any of this.

5) No pressure drops due to the type of tstat I'm using. It's a 90/10 so it's at least 10% open at all times.

I've been driving with this system in place for a few weeks now with no problems with cold shifting. Shifts are smooth and crisp and I really can't distinguish any shifting differences between cold and hot conditions. I've done several high speed pulls with no issues so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ink
Really interesting and great progress man!!

I've got a few questions for you with this configuration, firstly, is your car a dedicated track car?

1. What's the ideal operating temperature of the transmission?
2. Removal of the transmission heater will obviously lead to slower reaching of optimal operating temps, planning on timing this @ idle & cruising operation?
3. Did you consider installing the cooler inline/parallel to the heater?
4. The said Heater was thought to be a heat exchanger, is this not the case?
5. Pressure drops, how are you monitoring this (if any)?

Really interested in how you get on with this. Was looking into options with my DCT and there aren't any!
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boostninja boostninja is offline
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Default 11-01-2015, 07:35 PM

This will totally work for DCT trans "warmer" as well.

I want.
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Default 11-01-2015, 07:51 PM

Nice work Jason. As always


07 335i AT/CUSTOM 6870 GEN2 ST/VAC ENGINE AND STAGE 3 HEAD/FABFACTORY INTAKE W/PI/1000HP AD FMIC/EOS BILLET FUEL SETUP/BL COILS/DUAL OIL COOLERS/RB EXTERNAL PCV/PD TRANY W COOLER/M3 FRONT N REAR SUSPENSION W/ROUGE BEARINGS/HOTCHKIS ADJUSTABLE END LINKS/ADUSTABLE REAR TOE ARMS AND CAMBER LINKS/EIBACH SWAYBARS/BC RACING BR COILOVERS AND CAMBER PLATES/AKG REAR SUBFRAME, DIFF, REAR SHOCK BUSHINGS/POWER FLEX BUSHINGS/WAVETRAC REAR DIFF WITH DEFIV BRACE AND VAC COVER/4IN EXHAUST
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Default 11-01-2015, 07:55 PM

Actually, the only thing the ATF lines are connected to is the stock heater unit, which has been completely removed. ATF flows only into and out of this, as does the engine coolant. You can clearly see it in my first pic.

Please see my comments above regarding the ATF heater's intended function. BMW wants the ATF heated up as fast as possible and the best way to do that is tie it into a liquid to liquid heat exchanger via the radiator. The problem with this system is, your heat evacuation is directly tied to coolant temps, which can be in excess of 225F.

As far as the size of the cooler itself, you want the ability to dump as much heat as possible as fast as possible, especially when doing several high speed pulls consecutively. The fluid temp will always return to whatever tstat you have in line. Most turbo-diesel engines have ATF coolers almost the size of our radiators that keep the ATF cool under high load conditions. Same concept can be applied here. I'm just utilizing the space I have available to fit the biggest cooler I can.

This transmission has no problem building heat by itself alone. That's been extremely evident throughout my testing. I just wanted to completely separate my systems so that I can cool them independently so as to not suffer heat soak from other components. These Setrab coolers are incredibly efficient. I also installed one on the passengers side to replace the stock oil cooler and it performs extremely well. I'm using a 215F tstat for my engine oil and it hasn't gotten above 220 under consecutive high load high speed pulls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
I can help with a couple of these questions.

1) Ive always heard 180 for ATF, but thats a simple change of tstat.

3) The bottom quarter of the radiator circulates ATF. You install the cooler in series to get additional cooling capacity and to not mix ~210 degree ATF with 165-180 degree ATF at the transmission. It also allows normal heat up of the transmission when you install a bypass tstat.

4) I still dont know what the heater block is or does exactly, but I do know that the ATF circulates through the radiator. As is typical with automatic cars.

5) I have this question as well, 16 rows is big for an ATF cooler.
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Default 11-01-2015, 07:56 PM

Thanks, Chris! And thanks for the feedback on the bracketing

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR
Awesome job Jason! great work as usual
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Default 11-01-2015, 07:57 PM

Thanks, Eric! Hope the car is doing well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erichale
Nice work Jason. As always
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Default 11-01-2015, 08:00 PM

I'm interested in a set


07 335i AT/CUSTOM 6870 GEN2 ST/VAC ENGINE AND STAGE 3 HEAD/FABFACTORY INTAKE W/PI/1000HP AD FMIC/EOS BILLET FUEL SETUP/BL COILS/DUAL OIL COOLERS/RB EXTERNAL PCV/PD TRANY W COOLER/M3 FRONT N REAR SUSPENSION W/ROUGE BEARINGS/HOTCHKIS ADJUSTABLE END LINKS/ADUSTABLE REAR TOE ARMS AND CAMBER LINKS/EIBACH SWAYBARS/BC RACING BR COILOVERS AND CAMBER PLATES/AKG REAR SUBFRAME, DIFF, REAR SHOCK BUSHINGS/POWER FLEX BUSHINGS/WAVETRAC REAR DIFF WITH DEFIV BRACE AND VAC COVER/4IN EXHAUST
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Default 11-01-2015, 08:02 PM

Just got the fmic from Andy and we're pluming it in now. That was the last piece i needed. Only thing left after that is tuning.


07 335i AT/CUSTOM 6870 GEN2 ST/VAC ENGINE AND STAGE 3 HEAD/FABFACTORY INTAKE W/PI/1000HP AD FMIC/EOS BILLET FUEL SETUP/BL COILS/DUAL OIL COOLERS/RB EXTERNAL PCV/PD TRANY W COOLER/M3 FRONT N REAR SUSPENSION W/ROUGE BEARINGS/HOTCHKIS ADJUSTABLE END LINKS/ADUSTABLE REAR TOE ARMS AND CAMBER LINKS/EIBACH SWAYBARS/BC RACING BR COILOVERS AND CAMBER PLATES/AKG REAR SUBFRAME, DIFF, REAR SHOCK BUSHINGS/POWER FLEX BUSHINGS/WAVETRAC REAR DIFF WITH DEFIV BRACE AND VAC COVER/4IN EXHAUST
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Default 11-01-2015, 08:06 PM

Cool. I'm hoping to have a few sets machined by the end of next weekend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erichale
I'm interested in a set
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Default 11-01-2015, 08:06 PM

Awesome man! Good to hear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by erichale
Just got the fmic from Andy and we're pluming it in now. That was the last piece i needed. Only thing left after that is tuning.
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Default 11-01-2015, 08:38 PM

Extremely interested in this!!!


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Default 11-01-2015, 09:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
Thanks!

Track car - No and don't plan on tracking. Might do some NFZ type stuff next year though.

1) Everything I've seen and researched across several AT platforms is that optimum operating temps are 160F - 170F so I chose the 165F tstat made by Improved Racing.

2) Yes but during testing, the AT fluid only took ~7 more minutes under idle to reach the 40C requirement for filling the trans with fluid with the new cooler inline compared to stock. However, it makes temp much faster under load.

3) No due to space and system complexity and it's not required because I'm not concerned with slightly higher viscosity for a little longer. Plus Red Line fluid has very good low operating temp performance.

4) The stock system is meant to heat the fluid up rapidly for emissions and efficiency purposes. Less viscosity = less friction = better emissions and efficiency. Again, I'm not concerned with any of this.

5) No pressure drops due to the type of tstat I'm using. It's a 90/10 so it's at least 10% open at all times.

I've been driving with this system in place for a few weeks now with no problems with cold shifting. Shifts are smooth and crisp and I really can't distinguish any shifting differences between cold and hot conditions. I've done several high speed pulls with no issues so far.
Thanks mate! Did you mean to say road car?

So with this addition of a new oil cooler, as you say, there will no longer be any ATF lines into the radiator, and the heat exchange coolant return hard line is blocked off.



Which leads me to more questions, sorry!

1. Is air cooling or water cooling more efficient?
2. Would upgrading the radiator potentially also provide a decrease in ATF temps? And did you consider this?
3. If this new cooler is your own method of ATF cooling, would you not consider a larger unit?

Last edited by _ink; 12-28-2015 at 06:40 AM..
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Default 11-01-2015, 09:28 PM

Clean setup! But I have some concerns about trans temp as they were already mentioned here. Would be good if we can see some actual data.


09 BMW E92 335i: EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
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Default 11-01-2015, 10:24 PM

I like the project, kudos. If you are plugging the coolant hoses anyway why still use the quick connect fitting with the new added hoses? I'm not sure I'm understanding clearly. I could see needing the adapters if I were using the pre T'd off hoses from an IS and wanted to upgrade the secondary radiator. Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
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Default 11-02-2015, 01:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.G.
I like the project, kudos. If you are plugging the coolant hoses anyway why still use the quick connect fitting with the new added hoses? I'm not sure I'm understanding clearly. I could see needing the adapters if I were using the pre T'd off hoses from an IS and wanted to upgrade the secondary radiator. Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
The lines being blocked off are the return lines for the coolant.

The quick connect fittings are for the ATF.

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Aerotest Aerotest is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 06:53 AM

Great work Jason. I want to point out another key point. The ZF/GM six+ speeds do not work like your daddy's TH350 or 700R4. Line pressure has nothing to do with clamping force or engagement strength. These are clutch based transmissions all designed around a single Swiss patent. Clamping force is generated by clutch pack engagement which is really the key strength component. Although fluid is used to engage and disengage its primary purpose is for cooling the clutch and gear components. Plenty on the interwebz on this. Also, take a look at the BIN Tier II certification requirement and you will understand why BMW did what they did. Cold start to course for efficiency and emissions measurements. Jason is spot on why BMW wanted to heat the trans fluid....friction. This is not a purpose built track car.
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Default 11-02-2015, 07:27 AM

I'll try to address the above questions/concerns...

1) Air to liquid is more efficient unless the fluid you're using to pull heat from a system is from a chiller. In this case the liquid you're exchanging heat with is engine coolant, which is far from being chilled and is directly tied to the engine temps. Engine coolant temps can easily exceed 225F for sustained periods of time and make it much more difficult to dump the heat from the trans, especially since there really is no cooling effect from the stock unit. It has a tstat in it that closes after the trans has reached the temp specified by BMW to rapid heating of the ATF fluid. After that, it closes and the trans is at the mercy of heat soak from the engine plus heat soak from fluid friction.

2) No ATF flows through the main radiator. Those quick-connects on the radiator itself are for the power steering fluid. The unit in the pic above is the only "radiator" that the ATF flows through.

3) The coolant supply and return hoses to the stock unit are both cut and plugged off. You can easily see the coolant supply hose in my first pic. The return hose is on the radiator itself and is cut and plugged the same way.

4) There are several ways of doing this. I wanted a clean interface with the stock AFT lines so I could run AN lines and fittings to the Setrab Cooler. Of course you can just cut the ends off and use barbed type hoses but I like to try and minimize potential leak points.

5) Regarding temp concerns; Every piece of literature or study I've read all suggest and recommend the ATF to being held at around 165F (ATF in the trans itself will actually be higher than this) for optimum operating temp as well as transmission longevity. These studies span several different transmission models. AFT isn't subjected to the same conditions as engine oil, i.e. fuel dilution, condensation or combustion contaminates so the temp requirements aren't the same. You need engine oil at a higher temp to burn all these off unless you're employing a very aggressive oil change interval. ATF is a closed loop system in that the only contaminates it is subject to is the break down of the friction material, which is directly related to ATF temps. The higher the temp, the more rapid and extreme the break down will be.

5) Regarding temp data; like I said in a previous post, I'm still compiling data but I've already seen enough to support my implementation of this system. A few key points...
1) Under idling conditions, the ATF only took ~7 more minutes to reach the required fill temp of 40C. This tells me that the trans is both building heat itself and experiencing heat soak from the engine.
2) Data collected from my car and a car with the stock system shows that the transmission quickly reaches temps in excess of 90C (195F+) with the stock unit after only a few low speed (120mph) WOT pulls. From my research, above 90C is where not to go. My system keeps the ATF in the 165F range even after several of the same type pulls and some in the 140mph range. Also, the efficiency of the Setrab cooler have a lot to do with this as well. As mentioned above, I have also replaced the stock oil cooler with the same Setrab cooler I used for the ATF. Engine oil temps are MUCH more stable now. Again, I'm still manually collecting data via INPA. It would be a lot easier to show the data if Terry could figure out how to get the JB4 to log ATF temps.

In summary, I see absolutely zero concern with keeping ATF temps in the suggested 165F range. Several of the studies I've read were conducted in a race type environment so the conditions are very extreme. There is no detectable change in shift characteristics under any loaded conditions.

I've attached an illustration from one of the sites I read. As you can see, trans failure is directly tied to heat. Heat is the main byproduct of HP and TQ and basically, the more heat you can get rid of, the more power you can sustain (within reason). You can easily see the correlation. Of course other things like friction material also have a say in this but those are no so easily addressed. Why do you think the Level 10 transmissions are still failing? HEAT. Like I said in a post above, an ATF cooler IS NOT going to make your transmission bulletproof but it WILL help build some margin into the lifespan at these higher power levels. You put an efficient cooling system on a Level 10 trans and I guarantee you'll see improved life.

[IMG][/IMG]
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AUbeast86 AUbeast86 is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 07:50 AM

The stock ATF lines utilize quick-connect fittings (you can clearly see the male quick-connect ends on the stock heat exchanger in the pic provided by _ink in the above post) and I wanted to retain these and adapt them to AN fittings and hoses since the Setrab coolers utilize AN fittings. I'm plugging the coolant lines because they aren't needed anymore since I'm eliminating the stock ATF heat exchanger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.G.
I like the project, kudos. If you are plugging the coolant hoses anyway why still use the quick connect fitting with the new added hoses? I'm not sure I'm understanding clearly. I could see needing the adapters if I were using the pre T'd off hoses from an IS and wanted to upgrade the secondary radiator. Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
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