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Default Who all would like for the JB4 to be able to log AT fluid temps? - 09-28-2015, 11:14 AM

Just curious.
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Default 09-28-2015, 11:15 AM

+1. Would be awesome to see data point if possible!


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Default 09-28-2015, 12:06 PM

20 views and no comments? If you'd like to have this option, please post your interest in this thread.
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Default 09-28-2015, 12:09 PM

I would love this feature to be added!


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Default 09-28-2015, 12:14 PM

I'd like it as well
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Default 09-28-2015, 01:29 PM

It would be nice...and even better if I could gauge it with JB4 Mobile!



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Default 09-28-2015, 01:48 PM

+1


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Default 09-28-2015, 01:55 PM

Thats exactly what I'm getting at

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texsquirrel
It would be nice...and even better if I could gauge it with JB4 Mobile!
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Default 09-28-2015, 01:59 PM

I'd like to see it!


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135pats 135pats is offline
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Default 09-28-2015, 03:39 PM

Yes, that would be lovely.

We have zero hard data as to how the 6AT functions in a high low, high heat environment. We have no clue what fluid temps. we're seeing, what the delta from ambient looks like, cool down time etc.
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Default 09-28-2015, 04:14 PM

Can it even be logged with BT? I would LOVE for this especially after installing my AT cooler....


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Default 09-28-2015, 05:14 PM

Totally love this, for DCT it's a really important data set. Especially for the DCT's pushing with higher power levels, Terry knows the challenges with this already.
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Default 09-28-2015, 05:35 PM

AT Fluid would be great as would OIL TEMP as us E6X performance-minded N54 owners only have "Fuel" and "MPG" in our cluster under the tach and speedo.

I sometimes sneak into the hidden gauge cluster menu to pull up coolant temp, not the same as oil.

The more data and options the better.

Evan



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Default 09-29-2015, 12:19 AM

Awhile back Terry mentioned that he was thinking of adding this into the JB4 but I don't think any progress has been made since. Maybe if there's enough of us interested he'll start working on it.
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Default 09-29-2015, 04:46 AM

Would love it!
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Default 09-29-2015, 05:50 AM

I've been monitoring it though INPA and my initial observation is that there is an extreme amount of heat soak from the engine at idle with the trans in neutral alone, much less when the system is under load. However, I'm sure heat is also being generated by the turbine and stator in the torque converter and the AT fluid pump. Here's what I've seen so far...

I removed the stock AT oil cooler (its a heater actually) and installed my own AT cooler design (that I might offer as a kit on my site) using a Setrab core and an Improved Racing 165F tstat. My initial concern was that I would not be able to adequately fill the trans with fluid per the procedure due to not having that heater in the system. Well, it turns out that there is a $hit ton of heat soak from the engine. Within 15 minutes of idling, the trans fluid temp easily hit 45C (fill temp is 30C-40C). Getting heat out of this system is paramount to building margin into the life of your transmission especially at these power levels. 2 runs at No-Fly or any high speed run and you're significantly cutting into the life of your gear box.

All the literature I've read on AT failure consistently states high fluid temps as the #1 cause, particularly with this ZF trans. Also what is very consistent is that the most ideal trans fluid temp is 165F-175F. With the stock AT fluid system being tied to the engine coolant, your AT fluid will never be in that range due to the fact the water tstat is set around 215F-230F, not to mention the amount of heat soak from the engine.
The failure modes go in this order...
1) High fluid temps kill the valve body solenoids (electronics no likey heat)
2) the valvebody cannot hold the pressures required due to the failing solenoids
3) the failed mechatronics cause premature and accelerated friction disc wear leading to catastrophic failure

This is why we need to be able to monitor trans fluid temps. I strongly feel that the majority of the trans failures on this platform are very much tied to extreme fluid temps. Everyone knows that heat robs HP and kills mechanical and electrical systems. Only with adequate monitoring and cooling can we really begin to see where the actual mechanical limitations of this gearbox really are. As of right now, heat is killing us. One could also deduce that this is also happening in the MTs as well since they are surely experiencing the same heat soak from the engine.

As of right now, I'm manually collecting my trans fluid temp data though INPA, which is a HUGE PITA.

Terry, hook us up. You know it can be done.

Last edited by AUbeast86; 09-29-2015 at 06:18 AM..
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Default 09-29-2015, 06:34 AM

Yep. That's the intent of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PR3CI5N335i
Awhile back Terry mentioned that he was thinking of adding this into the JB4 but I don't think any progress has been made since. Maybe if there's enough of us interested he'll start working on it.
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Default 09-29-2015, 07:14 AM

+1 would love to see this.
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Default 09-29-2015, 07:25 AM

of course!!!!

Last edited by jdm5596; 09-29-2015 at 07:53 AM..
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Default 09-29-2015, 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
I've been monitoring it though INPA and my initial observation is that there is an extreme amount of heat soak from the engine at idle with the trans in neutral alone, much less when the system is under load. However, I'm sure heat is also being generated by the turbine and stator in the torque converter and the AT fluid pump. Here's what I've seen so far...

I removed the stock AT oil cooler (its a heater actually) and installed my own AT cooler design (that I might offer as a kit on my site) using a Setrab core and an Improved Racing 165F tstat. My initial concern was that I would not be able to adequately fill the trans with fluid per the procedure due to not having that heater in the system. Well, it turns out that there is a $hit ton of heat soak from the engine. Within 15 minutes of idling, the trans fluid temp easily hit 45C (fill temp is 30C-40C). Getting heat out of this system is paramount to building margin into the life of your transmission especially at these power levels. 2 runs at No-Fly or any high speed run and you're significantly cutting into the life of your gear box.

All the literature I've read on AT failure consistently states high fluid temps as the #1 cause, particularly with this ZF trans. Also what is very consistent is that the most ideal trans fluid temp is 165F-175F. With the stock AT fluid system being tied to the engine coolant, your AT fluid will never be in that range due to the fact the water tstat is set around 215F-230F, not to mention the amount of heat soak from the engine.
The failure modes go in this order...
1) High fluid temps kill the valve body solenoids (electronics no likey heat)
2) the valvebody cannot hold the pressures required due to the failing solenoids
3) the failed mechatronics cause premature and accelerated friction disc wear leading to catastrophic failure

This is why we need to be able to monitor trans fluid temps. I strongly feel that the majority of the trans failures on this platform are very much tied to extreme fluid temps. Everyone knows that heat robs HP and kills mechanical and electrical systems. Only with adequate monitoring and cooling can we really begin to see where the actual mechanical limitations of this gearbox really are. As of right now, heat is killing us. One could also deduce that this is also happening in the MTs as well since they are surely experiencing the same heat soak from the engine.

As of right now, I'm manually collecting my trans fluid temp data though INPA, which is a HUGE PITA.

Terry, hook us up. You know it can be done.
Begood69 has our Vm kit with level 10 torque converter and valvebody. He upgraded and added his own trans cooler with fans. Seems to be helping him a lot. Hes been doing 30 psi runs on his 6466 without issues. So I believe trans fluid heating up is a big deal. Can be a great solution.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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sk55 sk55 is offline
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Default 09-29-2015, 09:29 AM

+1 on monitoring AT temp.

also if we could monitor engine oil pressure that would be great too.
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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 09-29-2015, 09:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
I've been monitoring it though INPA and my initial observation is that there is an extreme amount of heat soak from the engine at idle with the trans in neutral alone, much less when the system is under load. However, I'm sure heat is also being generated by the turbine and stator in the torque converter and the AT fluid pump. Here's what I've seen so far...

I removed the stock AT oil cooler (its a heater actually) and installed my own AT cooler design (that I might offer as a kit on my site) using a Setrab core and an Improved Racing 165F tstat. My initial concern was that I would not be able to adequately fill the trans with fluid per the procedure due to not having that heater in the system. Well, it turns out that there is a $hit ton of heat soak from the engine. Within 15 minutes of idling, the trans fluid temp easily hit 45C (fill temp is 30C-40C). Getting heat out of this system is paramount to building margin into the life of your transmission especially at these power levels. 2 runs at No-Fly or any high speed run and you're significantly cutting into the life of your gear box.

All the literature I've read on AT failure consistently states high fluid temps as the #1 cause, particularly with this ZF trans. Also what is very consistent is that the most ideal trans fluid temp is 165F-175F. With the stock AT fluid system being tied to the engine coolant, your AT fluid will never be in that range due to the fact the water tstat is set around 215F-230F, not to mention the amount of heat soak from the engine.
The failure modes go in this order...
1) High fluid temps kill the valve body solenoids (electronics no likey heat)
2) the valvebody cannot hold the pressures required due to the failing solenoids
3) the failed mechatronics cause premature and accelerated friction disc wear leading to catastrophic failure

This is why we need to be able to monitor trans fluid temps. I strongly feel that the majority of the trans failures on this platform are very much tied to extreme fluid temps. Everyone knows that heat robs HP and kills mechanical and electrical systems. Only with adequate monitoring and cooling can we really begin to see where the actual mechanical limitations of this gearbox really are. As of right now, heat is killing us. One could also deduce that this is also happening in the MTs as well since they are surely experiencing the same heat soak from the engine.

As of right now, I'm manually collecting my trans fluid temp data though INPA, which is a HUGE PITA.

Terry, hook us up. You know it can be done.
I am curious about this, how high of a temp does the transmission fluid get during a multigear pull?

But I agree, transmission temp would be great for the AT guys...


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Default 09-29-2015, 10:14 AM

I'll be logging this data manually as well for now but my assumption, based on how fast engine oil temps climb during high speed pulls, is that the AT fluid is probably in the same range if not higher since there is no real cooling.
The engine oil has its own cooler and the coolant has the radiator. The stock AT heat exchanger is about the size of a softball, behind the radiator/FMIC and is directly tied to the engine coolant, whose tstat is 215F-230F. Based on this, you can only assume that the transmission fluid is experiencing thermal runaway during high speed pulls. This is not good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
I am curious about this, how high of a temp does the transmission fluid get during a multigear pull?

But I agree, transmission temp would be great for the AT guys...
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Default 09-29-2015, 10:42 AM

Makes sense to add it. We'll have to look in to it.


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Default 09-29-2015, 10:47 AM

AWESOME!! Thanks T!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Makes sense to add it. We'll have to look in to it.
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