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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
Again, I'll ask you to show me your data that supports your statements. I've provided temp data under several conditions on 2 different cars, which was one of the main concerns in the BB thread.

If pressure loss is, in fact, a factor, then it will just have to manifest itself through slipping or shifting issues, both of which I have yet to experience under any condition. Any impact resulting from pressure losses would have been immediately noticeable at WOT to 6800 RPMs.

You guys should be glad I'm stepping out there and gathering this data. Based on the thread that was posted from BB, everyone on there was very interested in doing it but too scared because of speculation or difficulty in fabricating the system. I figured it out and will continue with data collection. If it nukes my trans, big $hit, I'll buy another one.

I fully understand everything you're stating regarding fluid dynamics and mechanics but I'm willing to take the risk to understand the limits. Based on your philosophy, we shouldn't be able to run above 9psi on these cars but guess what, we are.

Also, my car didn't originally come with an oil cooler. I installed the retro-fit kit from BMW shortly after I bought my car and I don't remember having to upgrade my oil pump to handle the additional head.

Thank you for your contribution to my thread. Your concerns have been noted.
No one is complaining about the work you have done. Just trying to help you out on some aspects of your setup that you might not have considered fully. If you just want to mod something on our car and hope it works out. Sure, as long as you are ok with potential consequences. But here is the thing, why bother modifying the system to begin with? It is not like the stock setup is failing on you yet.

Since it seems like you are giving a lot of thoughts on this, so might as well do it the right way and collect the necessary data on fluid temp, and most importantly, the return line pressure. If you can objectively collect those data and convince us your kit is working as you claimed, you will have no trouble selling them.

Anyway, I still don't believe heat is the issue here with these transmission. The transmission, being a closed system, generate just as much heat while cruising at 90mph as it would while WOT at 90mph. I have been tracking this car for 2 years now on road course, which is a lot more stressful on the drivetrain and the cooling system than any drag or roll racing. Even with all the track abuse, the factory fluid came out very clean when I finally replaced them earlier this year after 40k miles, and the transmission pan only has moderate amount of clutch materials on the pick up magnets. Even with all the tq and track abuse, this transmission still shift noticeably smoother than most of the new cars I have driven, including the PDK on the newer Porsches (definitely not as quick though).

Not sure how your argument with oil cooler and boost pressure is helping your case though... Oil coolers are OEM setup, as all N54 uses the same oil pump design... The compressor efficiency range for our MHI turbos are published as well. No one ever said anything more than 9psi is too much for them.


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Last edited by Cloud9Blue; 11-02-2015 at 06:09 PM..
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Van3 Van3 is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 06:22 PM

Wow Great work! ill be ordering these! lol.
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Default 11-02-2015, 06:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
Again, I'll ask you to show me your data that supports your statements. I've provided temp data under several conditions on 2 different cars, which was one of the main concerns in the BB thread.

If pressure loss is, in fact, a factor, then it will just have to manifest itself through slipping or shifting issues, both of which I have yet to experience under any condition. Any impact resulting from pressure losses would have been immediately noticeable at WOT to 6800 RPMs.

You guys should be glad I'm stepping out there and gathering this data. Based on the thread that was posted from BB, everyone on there was very interested in doing it but too scared because of speculation or difficulty in fabricating the system. I figured it out and will continue with data collection. If it nukes my trans, big $hit, I'll buy another one.

I fully understand everything you're stating regarding fluid dynamics and mechanics but I'm willing to take the risk to understand the limits. Based on your philosophy, we shouldn't be able to run above 9psi on these cars but guess what, we are.

Also, my car didn't originally come with an oil cooler. I installed the retro-fit kit from BMW shortly after I bought my car and I don't remember having to upgrade my oil pump to handle the additional head.

Thank you for your contribution to my thread. Your concerns have been noted.
Ive made two claims in this thread: Removing the stock heat exchanger is a bad idea because your transmission will take longer to reach operating temps. Adding such a large oil cooler into the system will increase the pressure drop in the system.

Which do you want proof of? The first point you told me, it takes 7 minutes longer to reach full temp at idle on a reasonably warm fall day. The second comes from a basic understanding of fluid dynamics and pipe flows. That's 2nd year mechanical engineering. You'll have to take my word on that as I don't feel like pulling out my notes from Sophomore year of college. But the information is readily available.

Everything else ive asked for has been along the line of "have you thought about this" or "you may want to rethink that."

I would argue that the results may not necessarily become apparent for a few months at least. Decreased ATF pressure in the transmission may result in missed shift, but it also may result in premature wear of some of the very expensive mechatronics in the transmission. You're guessing until you take proper measurements of return line pressure for tstat fully open and fully closed.

You retrofitted an oil cooler onto a car that came with an oil cooler later on. The part numbers are the same for everything else. I'll trust BMW R&D when they say that the system can handle the increase in pressure loss.

Youre talking about data collection, well youre in a position to shut cloud9blue and myself up. All you need to do it take pressure data. That is VERY important information. And it isnt something that youve considered, which is concerning. Yes youve picked a very nice tstat, ive heard all about it today. But you havent considered what the cooler itself is doing besides holding your temperature at the bare minimum of the acceptable range


Look at the end of the day what you do with your car is your business. But youre trying to sell your idea to some people who may not think the potential consequences of it all the way through. Im just trying to inform both you and anyone else on things before someone potentially grenades a transmission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
If it nukes my trans, big $hit, I'll buy another one.
Yes. This is what I want to hear from someone trying to sell me something.


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Last edited by brokenvert; 11-02-2015 at 06:36 PM..
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Default 11-02-2015, 08:28 PM

This statement is 100% false. 100%. You obviously have taken a shred of temp data. "I don't believe" isn't an empirical statement. It's emotional and void of logic. I can no longer take you seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Anyway, I still don't believe heat is the issue here with these transmission. The transmission, being a closed system, generate just as much heat while cruising at 90mph as it would while WOT at 90mph.
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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 10:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
This statement is 100% false. 100%. You obviously have taken a shred of temp data. "I don't believe" isn't an empirical statement. It's emotional and void of logic. I can no longer take you seriously.
Meh, I don't think you ever took me seriously anyway, lol

But seriously, show data... That's your best chance of shutting us up. Hell, I might even buy a kit like this if you have data to support what you are trying to claim.

Anyway, I would love to hear how you think transmission generate more heat when spinning at the same rpms.

Just FYI, all heat generated within the transmission is from friction between the gears and torque convertor, and during normal operations, the clutch packs don't slip and generate additional heat, unlike the ones you find in a clutch based LSD. Tell me where is the extra heat you are talking about coming from?

Sure, the line pressure might increase on the clutch pack to deal with the extra torque, if your tune is correctly dialed in. But the oil pump is directly driven inline by the input shaft and tied with the engine rpms as a result, so the line pressure must be regulated electromechanically through the valve body and the solenoids.

No, I never took any data on the transmission temp, nor did I implied I ever did. And frankly, there just isn't a way to log that parameter right now with JB4, since the only way to do it is through BT cable at the moment, and G5 ISO JB4 interfere with the CANbus so the damn cable is useless for logging now.

We are all just speculating at this point, but so far I have failed to see any valid arguments coming from you in regard to the issues pointed out by me and brokenvert. And as someone who is trying to sell someone this setup, it is up to you to provide some solid data.

Honestly, what we really need is a cracked TCU that allow us to finely control the line pressure and clutch pack engagement, not another transmission cooler.


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Default 11-03-2015, 05:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue

Anyway, I would love to hear how you think transmission generate more heat when spinning at the same rpms.

Just FYI, all heat generated within the transmission is from friction between the gears and torque convertor, and during normal operations, the clutch packs don't slip and generate additional heat, unlike the ones you find in a clutch based LSD. Tell me where is the extra heat you are talking about coming from?
I'm wondering the samething. I still can't figure out how my hood gets hot after driving for awhile.


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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-03-2015, 05:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfmarine
I'm wondering the samething. I still can't figure out how my hood gets hot after driving for awhile.
Really?

Transmission is a closed system separate from the engine with the exception of the heat exchanger. But as long as your coolant temp is in check, so will your trans fluid. That's why I kept on saying people are better off upgrading their radiator than messing with the transmission fluid lines.

Does you cabin get really hot when your engine is overheating and hitting limp mode? Of course not... The same concept applies to your transmission.


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Default 11-03-2015, 06:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
This statement is 100% false. 100%. You obviously have taken a shred of temp data. "I don't believe" isn't an empirical statement. It's emotional and void of logic. I can no longer take you seriously.
Yes Mr. Spock, because you've been so logical when presented with conflicting information to what you want to believe in this thread.

FYI, the logical response to our concerns is, "thats an interesting thought. I will need to check it out and verify results with you."

Both of us have stated that the easiest way to make us shut up is to give us pressure numbers in the return line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue

Honestly, what we really need is a cracked TCU that allow us to finely control the line pressure and clutch pack engagement, not another transmission cooler.
Thats gonna be tough. BMW apparently wrote custom control code for the transmission and its very far removed from the OEM ZF code. It would take a lot of time for someone to really get into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfmarine
I'm wondering the samething. I still can't figure out how my hood gets hot after driving for awhile.

You hood gets hot because there are thousands of explosions a minute coming from under it. Last time I checked transmissions dont explode (well they shouldnt)



Cloud9Blue youre right and you arent at the same time. Ideally, the only input conditions to the system would be the line to the coolant and the input shaft of the transmission.

Ideally heat generation would be constant with RPM, and it is in a manual transmission (thats why they dont need external cooling loops in most cases). But because our automatics have a working fluid and not a physical connection you get a heating effect from doing work to it. It comes from the first and second laws of thermodynamics. Work, Temperature, and Entropy are related in fluid systems.

Granted, I cant see it being a large heating effect. But I dont think its entirely negligible.

Also, dont forget, higher loads will make the coolant work harder, which in turn will heat up the ATF because they are linked. So running the motor at higher loads will cause a heating of the fluid in that way too. My coolant can spike 220 or 230 at autox, thats a bit hot for a transmission.


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Last edited by brokenvert; 11-03-2015 at 07:06 AM.. Reason: clarity
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Default 11-03-2015, 07:02 AM

While your assumption might have been valid previously, this is absolutely not true as proven by the temp data I've taken so far. The ATF easily reached 93C (200F) just after a few short medium speed pulls on 11psi boost on the car with the stock system and continued to climb during cruising. Furthermore, the ATF consistently trailed the engine oil temp by approximately 10C. This tells me that there is significant heat transfer between the engine and transmission through conduction. I can only assume it's more at higher boost levels. 200F is not a good operating temp for longevity, especially at higher boost levels. BTW, I've had one transmission fail. When I tore it down, the fluid pan had a high level of friction material in it. To me, that's an extremely important data point, which launched me into researching this modification.

Regarding fluid friction not producing high levels of heat; have you ever seen a blender boil water? Well I have. Google VitaMix. It's bad@ss. Anyway, the torque converter is a fluid coupler and generates a significant amount of heat by itself. That heat increases exponentially with the pressures and speeds of the turbine, stator and pump associated with high speed/load pulls under high boost. Again, this is evident using INPA to monitor the temps at only 11psi. It even displays the speeds of the TC and engine RPM.

I'll address the other concerns (pressure and head) and explain my assumptions and calculations in another post later. Believe it or not, there are other mechanical and aerospace engineers on this forum who have actual racing experience to pull from, just FYI. I didnt want to bore the crap out of everyone with a bunch of engineering techno-babble but I will. Most people just want to know what you did and if it's working but no worries, I'm developing my Cloud9Blue engineering dissertation and thesis. Fingers crossed for your approval. LOL.

Also, I will not be selling any "kits", only the 2 fittings I made to plumb in the cooler.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Really?

Transmission is a closed system separate from the engine with the exception of the heat exchanger. But as long as your coolant temp is in check, so will your trans fluid. That's why I kept on saying people are better off upgrading their radiator than messing with the transmission fluid lines.

Does you cabin get really hot when your engine is overheating and hitting limp mode? Of course not... The same concept applies to your transmission.
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Default 11-03-2015, 07:09 AM

So we're reverted to name calling now? That's cute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
Yes Mr. Spock, because you've been so logical when presented with conflicting information to what you want to believe in this thread.
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Default 11-03-2015, 07:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
This tells me that there is significant heat transfer between the engine and transmission through conduction.

I'll address the other concerns (pressure and head) and explain my assumptions and calculations in another post later. Believe it or not, there are other mechanical and aerospace engineers on this forum who have actual racing experience to pull from, just FYI. I didnt want to bore the crap out of everyone with a bunch of engineering techno-babble but I will. Most people just want to know what you did and if it's working but no worries, I'm developing my Cloud9Blue engineering dissertation and thesis. Fingers crossed for your approval. LOL.

Also, I will not be selling any "kits", only the 2 fittings I made to plumb in the cooler.
I didnt think about the conduction bit, thats a good point.

I'm not denying that the transmission gets hot. We know it gets hot, everything in the car gets hot.

And yes, I am one of those mechanical and aerospace engineers who has worked for a racing team. I have questions that I would like answered. Mostly just, "have you thought about the stress imposed on the system by the cooler"


Youre selling forum members on the idea of completely changing their transmission cooling system. Thats not something that most people want to do without knowing the longevity of the solution.

I can run 20psi with meth and a 100 shot of nitrous and say "look im making 600 horsepower on stock turbos you can to!" and only have the motor last a month. Thats idea behind my comments and concerns, though obviously that example is a bit of a hyperbole.


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Last edited by brokenvert; 11-03-2015 at 07:22 AM..
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Default 11-03-2015, 07:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
So we're reverted to name calling now? That's cute.
Sorry I get sassy during my morning commute


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Default 11-03-2015, 07:38 AM

Finally, now that everyone is calming down, we can begin to engage in rational conversation.

Yes, I've thought about the stresses of the system, along every one of your concerns but there's absolutely no way (within reason) to calculate boundary layers, laminar flow, turbulent flow, etc. associated with every fitting and hose bend without actually building the system and testing. Every engineering solution begins with assumptions. The temp data I already had. Check. My assumptions were based on being able to properly choose my hardware so as to address the pressure drop concerns with this type of mod so I feel like I did that (tstat + cooler).

Now the system is built and installed so all that's left to do is record data and monitor performance, all of which are stable right now. Of course there's a time component but that component exists in everything. I considered all these as calculated, acceptable risks to be taken so that I can collect the final data components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
I didnt think about the conduction bit, thats a good point.

I'm not denying that the transmission gets hot. We know it gets hot, everything in the car gets hot.

And yes, I am one of those mechanical and aerospace engineers who has worked for a racing team. I have questions that I would like answered. Mostly just, "have you thought about the stress imposed on the system by the cooler"


Youre selling forum members on the idea of completely changing their transmission cooling system. Thats not something that most people want to do without knowing the longevity of the solution.

I can run 20psi with meth and a 100 shot of nitrous and say "look im making 600 horsepower on stock turbos you can to!" and only have the motor last a month. Thats idea behind my comments and concerns, though obviously that example is a bit of a hyperbole.
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Default 11-03-2015, 07:39 AM

No worries man.

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Sorry I get sassy during my morning commute
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Default 11-03-2015, 07:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
Finally, now that everyone is calming down, we can begin to engage in rational conversation.

Yes, I've thought about the stresses of the system, along every one of your concerns but there's absolutely no way (within reason) to calculate boundary layers, laminar flow, turbulent flow, etc. associated with every fitting and hose bend without actually building the system and testing. Every engineering solution begins with assumptions. The temp data I already had. Check. My assumptions were based on being able to properly choose my hardware so as to address the pressure drop concerns with this type of mod so I feel like I did that (tstat + cooler).

Now the system is built and installed so all that's left to do is record data and monitor performance, all of which are stable right now. Of course there's a time component but that component exists in everything. I considered all these as calculated, acceptable risks to be taken so that I can collect the final data components.

Right, but the main concern is with regards to observed pressure losses in the system. That's easily measured (relatively speaking) and you're in the position to do it. Just place a pressure sensor before and after the tstat.

We don't have a stock car, but we can at least get an idea of what kind of losses the cooler is causing by measuring system pressure relative to temperature. At below 165 the cooler is mostly bypassed, use that number as a baseline and then compare it to when the system is under load.

The stock numbers might be findable from ZF.


Also I just had a thought, has anyone considered adding a secondary oil pump to the ATF system to help supplement the losses caused by adding components? Obviously wed need numbers to proper size the pump but I feel like thats an easy way to remedy any concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
No worries man.
Trains are just so boring!


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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-03-2015, 07:53 AM

The tq converter of our transmission locks as early as 1500rpms, so you are not relying on the impellers in the tq converter to transfer power and there should be no differential speed between the impellers that would generate additional heat. As a result, there should be very minimal heat generated or wasted from the engine. Part of the reason the mpg of car is very similar between MT and AT. Your understanding is correct on an old school automatic with no locking tq converter, but just not with the modern ZF.

I still suspects your high transmission temp is due to high coolant temp caused by the undersized radiator. Considering all the extra power you are making with high power setup like some of the single turbo and hybrid + inlets setup, you are asking engine to shred 2x amount of heat with the already undersized radiator and oil cooler.

Road course guys suffer heat induced limp mode because of coolant overheat, rather than oil, which doesn't trigger limp mode until 300F. That's why BMW put an auxiliary radiator on the 335is and 1M and upgraded radiator has worked exceptionally well for me and few other members. Considering the coolant, engine oil, and transmission fluid temperature are all tied together in this car, you need to evaluate all three system as a whole instead of just focusing on one.


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Default 11-03-2015, 08:00 AM

Excessive clutch materials in your pan could mean a lot of things. Sure it could be high fluid temp leading to break down of the clutch surface from the lack of proper lubrication between the wet clutch packs. But it could also mean insufficient clamping pressure that leads to clutch slippage and prematurely wears, and that can caused by many things from simply making too much power for this transmission or a failing solenoid.


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Default 11-04-2015, 11:27 AM

OK guys, here's some additional information so take it for what's worth. I had a chance to spend some time on the phone with Pat at Level 10 today. He just returned from a transmission expo in Vegas where he had direct discussions with ZF engineers. He was kind enough to give me almost an hour of his time confirming the actual functionality of this transmission as well as the effects of my cooler system. He confirmed my understanding of how this thing works as well as 100% endorsed my cooling system and said it would absolutely not cause any issues regarding clamping pressures or increased wear on the pump because the pump has 2 totally different pressure circuits. He said he was glad someone finally figured out how to separate the ATF system from the engine coolant system and this would absolutely help build margin into the life of the transmission, regardless of modification level. He also commented that I had obviously put a lot of thought into how to design the system around the concerns I had and said I had chosen the best hardware available. He said that Setrab was “the real deal” when it comes to flow and removing heat from a system. He also agreed that the reason any OEM uses the coolant to heat up the ATF is strictly for emissions and efficiency purposes but I’ll go a step further; if the OEM cannot pass emissions and MPG requirements per CAFE and EPA regulations, they will NOT be cleared for sale in the US market (see what just happened to VW). Also, the entire fleet has to comprehensively meet these as a whole. You can read more about it here…
http://www.nhtsa.gov/fuel-economy
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/
He also confirmed that the TC does, in fact, lock up very early, again, for emissions and efficiency purposes. The ZF engineer stated that the new ZF 8AT locks up a lot earlier than the 6AT for these same reasons and that the vehicle OEMs are not concerned of the wear consequences of this because the efficiency and emissions requirements get tougher to meet each year. Furthermore, BMW in particular is only concerned with eclipsing the 50K warranty milestone since maintenance is “included” in the price of the vehicle. This is also evident by their extended oil change intervals. They have done extensive real world testing (engine and chassis dyno) to ensure this milestone is achieved without causing significant mechanical damage within the warranty time-frame. Because of this, they are not concerned with the long-term effects of high transmission temps or the build-up of engine sludge. They are built to be the “ultimate driving machine”, not the “ultimate reliability machine”. These are all points aimed at supporting my stance that the intent of the AFT heater is not to protect the transmission from wear during warm-up. Here are a few technical details from our discussion…

- Regarding internal pressures: There is one internal ATF pump in the transmission but it has 2 separate circuits. A high pressure circuit and a low pressure circuit. The high pressure circuit is used to generate the pressures required by the valve-body and is controlled by pressure regulators. The valve-body pressures range from 80psi at idle to 170psi at WOT but has the capacity to produce 670psi. The reverse gear operates at 220psi. The low pressure circuit is used to pump the AFT through the stock heater unit and is regulated to 30psi.
- Regarding potential issues with my system: None. I explained every detail of how my system was laid out and he said the low side pump circuit would have zero issues with circulating ATF though it. He also stated that Ford uses the same transmission in several vehicles and their cooler hoses are traveling a lot further with more ups and downs that what I described. He did offer one test to conduct to confirm adequate flow; shoot the ATF pan and cooler with a heat gun. The pan should be ~20F hotter than the cooler after several minutes of idling.
- ATF purpose: 1) cooling 2) lubricating 3) locking up the TC. He stated that the 165F TSTAT set point was perfect for this transmission since it would put the ATF in the transmission at right about 185F.
- Other interesting notes: The valve-body is capable of producing 670psi and that the secret to applying this in our cars lies in the DME torque tables, not the TCU itself. He said figuring out which ones is the issue, of course. The valve-body pressure drops to 110psi in 5th gear and that’s why most of the issues are occurring in that area. If we can figure out how which torque tables are used to increase the pressures, these things will easily hold the higher power levels based on the fact that there are Ford trucks running 9’s with this same transmission with no problems but the Ford software is all 100% accessible. It’s all in the DME software. We just need to figure it out.

Level 10 has confirmed all the data I needed to support this system. I’ll continue to gather data and report my results in this thread. I plan to conduct the following tests this weekend…
1) ATF pan temp vs Cooler temp
2) Warm-up time of stock vs modified system at idle
3) Warm-up time of stock vs modified system under load
4) Max system temp (stock vs modified) after several consecutive high speed, WOT pulls

Again, I am not trying to push this system on anyone, nor am I offering to sell any “kits”. I’m just making some of the small pieces available to those that want to implement it. I also am not responsible for any damages they incur while installing it or resulting from it.
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Default 11-04-2015, 11:30 AM

I agree with this however, a failed solenoid can be the result of prolonged exposure to excessive ATF temps. Electronics don't like heat either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Excessive clutch materials in your pan could mean a lot of things. Sure it could be high fluid temp leading to break down of the clutch surface from the lack of proper lubrication between the wet clutch packs. But it could also mean insufficient clamping pressure that leads to clutch slippage and prematurely wears, and that can caused by many things from simply making too much power for this transmission or a failing solenoid.
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Default 11-04-2015, 11:33 AM

I also emailed "The CTSC" for some info. They supply all the solenoids and repair parts for various ZF transmissions.
Here is the link...
http://www.thectsc.com/index.php?p=home

Klaus from The CTSC had this to say...

"The 6HP21 transmission is a fully automatic transmission that does not use shift forks.
Hydraulic pressure generated by a single fluid pump applies pressure to clutch cylinders.
The control of which clutch is applied is done by the mechatronic (valve body) and the electronic transmission control unit.
The fluid in an automatic transmission is used for lubrication, cooling, power transfer (TC) and control.
That is why it is important to keep the fluid in good condition by performing oil changes on regular intervals.
If the fluid breaks down a transmission breakdown is not far behind."
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Default 11-04-2015, 01:03 PM

But why wont you test pressure drop

Just messing, cant believe the bs you got from a few in this thread. Kudos for going the extra mile and compiling all of that info. Im very impressed with the system you have put together.

Put me down for a set of adapters whenever you have a batch ready.
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Default 11-04-2015, 01:17 PM

Thanks! Will do! I'll definitely keep everyone posted on when they become available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtKurt
But why wont you test pressure drop

Just messing, cant believe the bs you got from a few in this thread. Kudos for going the extra mile and compiling all of that info. Im very impressed with the system you have put together.

Put me down for a set of adapters whenever you have a batch ready.
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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-04-2015, 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
OK guys, here's some additional information so take it for what's worth. I had a chance to spend some time on the phone with Pat at Level 10 today. He just returned from a transmission expo in Vegas where he had direct discussions with ZF engineers. He was kind enough to give me almost an hour of his time confirming the actual functionality of this transmission as well as the effects of my cooler system. He confirmed my understanding of how this thing works as well as 100% endorsed my cooling system and said it would absolutely not cause any issues regarding clamping pressures or increased wear on the pump because the pump has 2 totally different pressure circuits. He said he was glad someone finally figured out how to separate the ATF system from the engine coolant system and this would absolutely help build margin into the life of the transmission, regardless of modification level. He also commented that I had obviously put a lot of thought into how to design the system around the concerns I had and said I had chosen the best hardware available. He said that Setrab was “the real deal” when it comes to flow and removing heat from a system. He also agreed that the reason any OEM uses the coolant to heat up the ATF is strictly for emissions and efficiency purposes but I’ll go a step further; if the OEM cannot pass emissions and MPG requirements per CAFE and EPA regulations, they will NOT be cleared for sale in the US market (see what just happened to VW). Also, the entire fleet has to comprehensively meet these as a whole. You can read more about it here…
http://www.nhtsa.gov/fuel-economy
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/
He also confirmed that the TC does, in fact, lock up very early, again, for emissions and efficiency purposes. The ZF engineer stated that the new ZF 8AT locks up a lot earlier than the 6AT for these same reasons and that the vehicle OEMs are not concerned of the wear consequences of this because the efficiency and emissions requirements get tougher to meet each year. Furthermore, BMW in particular is only concerned with eclipsing the 50K warranty milestone since maintenance is “included” in the price of the vehicle. This is also evident by their extended oil change intervals. They have done extensive real world testing (engine and chassis dyno) to ensure this milestone is achieved without causing significant mechanical damage within the warranty time-frame. Because of this, they are not concerned with the long-term effects of high transmission temps or the build-up of engine sludge. They are built to be the “ultimate driving machine”, not the “ultimate reliability machine”. These are all points aimed at supporting my stance that the intent of the AFT heater is not to protect the transmission from wear during warm-up. Here are a few technical details from our discussion…

- Regarding internal pressures: There is one internal ATF pump in the transmission but it has 2 separate circuits. A high pressure circuit and a low pressure circuit. The high pressure circuit is used to generate the pressures required by the valve-body and is controlled by pressure regulators. The valve-body pressures range from 80psi at idle to 170psi at WOT but has the capacity to produce 670psi. The reverse gear operates at 220psi. The low pressure circuit is used to pump the AFT through the stock heater unit and is regulated to 30psi.
- Regarding potential issues with my system: None. I explained every detail of how my system was laid out and he said the low side pump circuit would have zero issues with circulating ATF though it. He also stated that Ford uses the same transmission in several vehicles and their cooler hoses are traveling a lot further with more ups and downs that what I described. He did offer one test to conduct to confirm adequate flow; shoot the ATF pan and cooler with a heat gun. The pan should be ~20F hotter than the cooler after several minutes of idling.
- ATF purpose: 1) cooling 2) lubricating 3) locking up the TC. He stated that the 165F TSTAT set point was perfect for this transmission since it would put the ATF in the transmission at right about 185F.
- Other interesting notes: The valve-body is capable of producing 670psi and that the secret to applying this in our cars lies in the DME torque tables, not the TCU itself. He said figuring out which ones is the issue, of course. The valve-body pressure drops to 110psi in 5th gear and that’s why most of the issues are occurring in that area. If we can figure out how which torque tables are used to increase the pressures, these things will easily hold the higher power levels based on the fact that there are Ford trucks running 9’s with this same transmission with no problems but the Ford software is all 100% accessible. It’s all in the DME software. We just need to figure it out.

Level 10 has confirmed all the data I needed to support this system. I’ll continue to gather data and report my results in this thread. I plan to conduct the following tests this weekend…
1) ATF pan temp vs Cooler temp
2) Warm-up time of stock vs modified system at idle
3) Warm-up time of stock vs modified system under load
4) Max system temp (stock vs modified) after several consecutive high speed, WOT pulls

Again, I am not trying to push this system on anyone, nor am I offering to sell any “kits”. I’m just making some of the small pieces available to those that want to implement it. I also am not responsible for any damages they incur while installing it or resulting from it.
Ok, assume the information from Level 10 is correct (not sure if they are to be trusted after their AT upgrades keep on falling short on their promises), we are looking at 2 separate circuits. So modifying the cooling lines won't have much of effect on the valvebody operations. So having a larger cooler won't have much of downside as we thought.

That said, I am wondering why you are blocking off the flow to the heat exchanger completely? Wouldn't it be a much better setup if we connect the T-stat and the cooler core after the heat exchanger. That we have have cooler transmission fluid and fast warm up during cold weather operations.


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Default 11-04-2015, 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Ok, assume the information from Level 10 is correct (not sure if they are to be trusted after their AT upgrades keep on falling short on their promises), we are looking at 2 separate circuits. So modifying the cooling lines won't have much of effect on the valvebody operations. So having a larger cooler won't have much of downside as we thought.

That said, I am wondering why you are blocking off the flow to the heat exchanger completely? Wouldn't it be a much better setup if we connect the T-stat and the cooler core after the heat exchanger. That we have have cooler transmission fluid and fast warm up during cold weather operations.
This is my current setup with a 7 row core and have no had issues romping on it in 110* Buttonwillow weather... I'm also not 100% sold based on Level 10s claims but it is funny that they claimed that this tranny can hold the power with correct DME tweaks yet they sell a $5k hardware based package that continues to fail.

Thanks so much for getting this info, Glad they were willing to release so much info to you over the phone

@AUBeast
What size core are you running again?


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Default 11-04-2015, 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Ok, assume the information from Level 10 is correct (not sure if they are to be trusted after their AT upgrades keep on falling short on their promises), we are looking at 2 separate circuits. So modifying the cooling lines won't have much of effect on the valvebody operations. So having a larger cooler won't have much of downside as we thought.

That said, I am wondering why you are blocking off the flow to the heat exchanger completely? Wouldn't it be a much better setup if we connect the T-stat and the cooler core after the heat exchanger. That we have have cooler transmission fluid and fast warm up during cold weather operations.
Agreed there, Level 10's designs seem to be ****. But in this case I would assume that they understand how the transmission works from the factory. They've had it apart more than anyone I can think of.

That being said. I'd like to see if those numbers hold up. Which I guess brings us back to this point again...OP you should put a pressure sensor on the return line and see if its 30psi!

Also agreed on your last point, putting a cooler in line after the stock heat exchanger would be how I'd plumb it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtKurt
But why wont you test pressure drop

Just messing, cant believe the bs you got from a few in this thread.
GASP some people had valid questions on an untested mod


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