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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 08:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
I'll try to address the above questions/concerns...

1) Air to liquid is more efficient unless the fluid you're using to pull heat from a system is from a chiller. In this case the liquid you're exchanging heat with is engine coolant, which is far from being chilled and is directly tied to the engine temps. Engine coolant temps can easily exceed 225F for sustained periods of time and make it much more difficult to dump the heat from the trans, especially since there really is no cooling effect from the stock unit. It has a tstat in it that closes after the trans has reached the temp specified by BMW to rapid heating of the ATF fluid. After that, it closes and the trans is at the mercy of heat soak from the engine plus heat soak from fluid friction.

2) No ATF flows through the main radiator. Those quick-connects on the radiator itself are for the power steering fluid. The unit in the pic above is the only "radiator" that the ATF flows through.

3) The coolant supply and return hoses to the stock unit are both cut and plugged off. You can easily see the coolant supply hose in my first pic. The return hose is on the radiator itself and is cut and plugged the same way.

4) There are several ways of doing this. I wanted a clean interface with the stock AFT lines so I could run AN lines and fittings to the Setrab Cooler. Of course you can just cut the ends off and use barbed type hoses but I like to try and minimize potential leak points.

5) Regarding temp concerns; Every piece of literature or study I've read all suggest and recommend the ATF to being held at around 165F (ATF in the trans itself will actually be higher than this) for optimum operating temp as well as transmission longevity. These studies span several different transmission models. AFT isn't subjected to the same conditions as engine oil, i.e. fuel dilution, condensation or combustion contaminates so the temp requirements aren't the same. You need engine oil at a higher temp to burn all these off unless you're employing a very aggressive oil change interval. ATF is a closed loop system in that the only contaminates it is subject to is the break down of the friction material, which is directly related to ATF temps. The higher the temp, the more rapid and extreme the break down will be.

5) Regarding temp data; like I said in a previous post, I'm still compiling data but I've already seen enough to support my implementation of this system. A few key points...
1) Under idling conditions, the ATF only took ~7 more minutes to reach the required fill temp of 40C. This tells me that the trans is both building heat itself and experiencing heat soak from the engine.
2) Data collected from my car and a car with the stock system shows that the transmission quickly reaches temps in excess of 90C (195F+) with the stock unit after only a few low speed (120mph) WOT pulls. From my research, above 90C is where not to go. My system keeps the ATF in the 165F range even after several of the same type pulls and some in the 140mph range. Also, the efficiency of the Setrab cooler have a lot to do with this as well. As mentioned above, I have also replaced the stock oil cooler with the same Setrab cooler I used for the ATF. Engine oil temps are MUCH more stable now. Again, I'm still manually collecting data via INPA. It would be a lot easier to show the data if Terry could figure out how to get the JB4 to log ATF temps.

In summary, I see absolutely zero concern with keeping ATF temps in the suggested 165F range. Several of the studies I've read were conducted in a race type environment so the conditions are very extreme. There is no detectable change in shift characteristics under any loaded conditions.

I've attached an illustration from one of the sites I read. As you can see, trans failure is directly tied to heat. Heat is the main byproduct of HP and TQ and basically, the more heat you can get rid of, the more power you can sustain (within reason). You can easily see the correlation. Of course other things like friction material also have a say in this but those are no so easily addressed. Why do you think the Level 10 transmissions are still failing? HEAT. Like I said in a post above, an ATF cooler IS NOT going to make your transmission bulletproof but it WILL help build some margin into the lifespan at these higher power levels. You put an efficient cooling system on a Level 10 trans and I guarantee you'll see improved life.

[IMG][/IMG]
I think it might help to show actual data on the warm up time with your setup when used in low ambient temperature environment (say <55F). Or else it is just pure speculation at this point.

Modern AT uses solenoids and internally generated line pressures for clutch pack actuations, so it is critically to have the right viscosity and operating temp for your transmission fluid.

That's why all OEM setup uses an inline heat exchanger... Unless you no longer plan on driving your car on the streets, I just don't see why is it a good idea to completely block of the circulation to the stock heat exchanger...

FYI, from what I can gather, level 10 trans upgrade fails because it doesn't increase the line pressure from the solenoid to the clutch pack that locks the planetary gears. That's why you have gear slippage and failed shifts when used in +550 to 600lb-ft setups.


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Default 11-02-2015, 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
Actually, the only thing the ATF lines are connected to is the stock heater unit, which has been completely removed. ATF flows only into and out of this, as does the engine coolant. You can clearly see it in my first pic.

Please see my comments above regarding the ATF heater's intended function. BMW wants the ATF heated up as fast as possible and the best way to do that is tie it into a liquid to liquid heat exchanger via the radiator. The problem with this system is, your heat evacuation is directly tied to coolant temps, which can be in excess of 225F.

As far as the size of the cooler itself, you want the ability to dump as much heat as possible as fast as possible, especially when doing several high speed pulls consecutively. The fluid temp will always return to whatever tstat you have in line. Most turbo-diesel engines have ATF coolers almost the size of our radiators that keep the ATF cool under high load conditions. Same concept can be applied here. I'm just utilizing the space I have available to fit the biggest cooler I can.

This transmission has no problem building heat by itself alone. That's been extremely evident throughout my testing. I just wanted to completely separate my systems so that I can cool them independently so as to not suffer heat soak from other components. These Setrab coolers are incredibly efficient. I also installed one on the passengers side to replace the stock oil cooler and it performs extremely well. I'm using a 215F tstat for my engine oil and it hasn't gotten above 220 under consecutive high load high speed pulls.

I didnt realise that ATF doesnt flow through the radiator. Interesting though.

You always want the transmission to come to temp quickly. You wear clutch packs and the solenoids dont work well without well heated fluid. The tranny coming to temp isnt the issue, its that without that link to the radiator it comes to temp more slowly.

Transmission coolers tend to be small in order to not cause a large pressure drop in the system. Pressure drops in the cooling lines adversely affect the shift action and can cause slipping. Your car never exceeding 165 tells me that your cooler is oversized, not a great thing for transmissions.


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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 09:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
I didnt realise that ATF doesnt flow through the radiator. Interesting though.

You always want the transmission to come to temp quickly. You wear clutch packs and the solenoids dont work well without well heated fluid. The tranny coming to temp isnt the issue, its that without that link to the radiator it comes to temp more slowly.

Transmission coolers tend to be small in order to not cause a large pressure drop in the system. Pressure drops in the cooling lines adversely affect the shift action and can cause slipping. Your car never exceeding 165 tells me that your cooler is oversized, not a great thing for transmissions.
Well said. For this to be a viable setup, we need these data.

- Warm up time

- Pressure drop

I personally would not put this on my car without any of these data.


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Default 11-02-2015, 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
Well said. For this to be a viable setup, we need these data.

- Warm up time

- Pressure drop

I personally would not put this on my car without any of these data.
Yep, warm up time is the whole reason why auto manufacturers link their ATF coolers to the radiator. Water temp rises quickly, which helps the transmissions come up to temp just as fast.

Ive considered putting a 10 row cooler in for a while, simply because I heat soak everything at autox. But even 10 is on the large end for transmissions!


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Default 11-02-2015, 10:47 AM

It was my car that was used to see how hot the trans got without any cooling. Just normal to slightly spirited driving in very light traffic got my temps close to 200f. My car has a 140k on it and the past year it slips occasionally. Usually after a bit of driving in city traffic. This makes me think that the heat is related to slipping. Now cold thick ATF may be detrimental to the clutch packs, but I usually don't start my car and immediately start driving like a bat out of hell. Again the heater was used to make emissions happy, not because they were worried about the life of your transmission. BMW is only concerned about making it last for 36k miles or 3 years.

Also many performance car part companies sell larger trans coolers and most truck owners that do serious towing upgrade to a larger cooler.


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Default 11-02-2015, 10:48 AM

As I stated above, which you both must have not read, the warmup time is ~7 minutes longer than stock to achieve the 40C mandated by BMW for filling the transmission. Again, this is while IDLING. The ATF heats up A LOT faster UNDER LOAD. I have posted all the data I have currently, so it's not speculation. Do either of you have any data to share that shows that heat is not a contributor to transmission failure?

Regarding why OEMs heat the ATF, see several posts above by Aerotest.

As far as the cooler being oversized due to my fluid being 165F, I'm not sure I follow your logic because I specially chose this tstat based on my research, so that means my system is working as intended. The size of the cooler has nothing to do with the setpoint of the fluid. Thats what the tstat does. The size of the cooler determines how fast you can expel heat and restore the fluid to the tstat setpoint.

Here's the tstat I chose and it clearly states fast warmup times along with minimal pressure drops...

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...65f-p-423.html

"Improved Racing's Flow Series Motorsport (FSM) oil thermostat is a universal solution that can be used with any oil cooler on any vehicle. This update to the popular ENV-101 thermostat features a larger bypass for quicker engine warm-up times while maintaining compact dimensions and weighing 5% less.

The device's unique patent-pending internal design - the result of over a year of research and development - ensures a low pressure drop by placing the bypass valve mechanism completely out of the primary oil flow. This arrangement also allows for a compact design.

High performance vehicles require large oil coolers to ensure that the oil does not overheat during strenuous use. These coolers also introduce the danger of over-cooling the oil and delaying engine warm-up, resulting in horsepower loss, excessive engine wear and reduced gas mileage. Oil thermostats perform the critical function of bypassing the oil cooler until the oil has reached its minimum operating temperature.

This thermostat is designed for use with transmission and differential coolers and maintains a minimum temperature of 165F (74C) +/- 2F exiting the transmission or differential in most conditions.
"


Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
Yep, warm up time is the whole reason why auto manufacturers link their ATF coolers to the radiator. Water temp rises quickly, which helps the transmissions come up to temp just as fast.

Ive considered putting a 10 row cooler in for a while, simply because I heat soak everything at autox. But even 10 is on the large end for transmissions!
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Default 11-02-2015, 11:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
....
These Setrab coolers are incredibly efficient. I also installed one on the passengers side to replace the stock oil cooler and it performs extremely well. I'm using a 215F tstat for my engine oil and it hasn't gotten above 220 under consecutive high load high speed pulls.
Care to post / PM me a parts list of this setup as well? I'd like to convert my oil cooler over to a setrab core as well.


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Default 11-02-2015, 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
Thanks, Chris! And thanks for the feedback on the bracketing
Yours came out 100X's better than mine lol


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Default 11-02-2015, 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
As I stated above, which you both must have not read, the warmup time is ~7 minutes longer than stock to achieve the 40C mandated by BMW for filling the transmission. Again, this is while IDLING. The ATF heats up A LOT faster UNDER LOAD. I have posted all the data I have currently, so it's not speculation. Do either of you have any data to share that shows that heat is not a contributor to transmission failure?

Regarding why OEMs heat the ATF, see several posts above by Aerotest.

As far as the cooler being oversized due to my fluid being 165F, I'm not sure I follow your logic because I specially chose this tstat based on my research, so that means my system is working as intended. The size of the cooler has nothing to do with the setpoint of the fluid. Thats what the tstat does. The size of the cooler determines how fast you can expel heat and restore the fluid to the tstat setpoint.

Here's the tstat I chose and it clearly states fast warmup times along with minimal pressure drops...

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...65f-p-423.html

"Improved Racing's Flow Series Motorsport (FSM) oil thermostat is a universal solution that can be used with any oil cooler on any vehicle. This update to the popular ENV-101 thermostat features a larger bypass for quicker engine warm-up times while maintaining compact dimensions and weighing 5% less.

The device's unique patent-pending internal design - the result of over a year of research and development - ensures a low pressure drop by placing the bypass valve mechanism completely out of the primary oil flow. This arrangement also allows for a compact design.

High performance vehicles require large oil coolers to ensure that the oil does not overheat during strenuous use. These coolers also introduce the danger of over-cooling the oil and delaying engine warm-up, resulting in horsepower loss, excessive engine wear and reduced gas mileage. Oil thermostats perform the critical function of bypassing the oil cooler until the oil has reached its minimum operating temperature.

This thermostat is designed for use with transmission and differential coolers and maintains a minimum temperature of 165F (74C) +/- 2F exiting the transmission or differential in most conditions.
"


Im not talking about pressure drops in the tstat, I'm talking about pressure drops in the cooler. And I said the temperature not moving is a sign of your cooler being oversized, not the fact that it stayed at 165.

An oversized cooler represents an increase in head rise for the pump that circulates ATF. It is very possible for an oversized cooler to cause the pump to run out of ability to properly move the fluid. The same thing happens to our stock turbos.

And yes, most companies will offer a bigger cooler as part of a trailer tow or track performance package. But those coolers also have better associated hardware to move the extra ATF and deal with the increased head associated with more turns, more restricted flow, and a large mass of fluid. You've added resistance to the flow in the form of a very large cooler and you havent checked to see how your system is capable of coping with it.

Yes, heat kills transmissions, but so does over cooling. Cloud9Blue and I are both worried about you inadvertently causing the second condition. Youre looking at each individual component, not the entire system. Thats the worry.

Ohh also to your last point, a 7 minute difference in heat up time is huge to a transmission. Transmission HATE being cold just as they do being hot. A cold transmission has a very short service life.


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Last edited by brokenvert; 11-02-2015 at 11:40 AM..
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Default 11-02-2015, 11:36 AM

Absolutely...

(1) Setrab 16-Row, Series 6 Oil Cooler w/-8AN Fitting Option...
http://www.improvedracing.com/setrab...ler-p-251.html

(1) High-Flow Transmission Fluid Thermostat, 165F, -8AN...
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...65f-p-423.html

(6) 90* -8AN Hose Ends (Summit Racing)

(2) Straight -8AN Hose Ends (Summit)

(2) ATF Cooler Adapter Fittings, -8AN (I'll have them up on my site soon)

6' of -8AN Braided Nylon Hose (Summit)

335is Cooler Duct(s) (requires fog-light delete)

The bracket can be made from whatever but I modified a framing bracket from Lowes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
Care to post / PM me a parts list of this setup as well? I'd like to convert my oil cooler over to a setrab core as well.
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Default 11-02-2015, 12:01 PM

I have all the data I needed to make an informed decision and that absolutely included looking at the entire system. Of course my ATF temps fluctuate. You misunderstood my comment. The tstat I picked ensures that they do and that the system doesn't overheat OR overcool. The cooler core stays primed to avoid shock or pressure drops, also a designed function of the tstat I picked (90/10 flow characteristic).

I'm sure everyone can resist beating the crap out of their car for 7 more minutes while the AFT gets up to temp so that they can build margin in their trans on the top end. The JB4 also has this type of requirement for engine oil before going full boost. Again, if Terry can get the JB4 to monitor ATF that would be awesome.

No one is forcing you to do this mod. I invite everyone to do their own research before doing ANY modification so they can make an informed, educated decision about what's best for them. My decision was based on the data I collected and my experience in the automotive manufacturing industry but I appreciate your concern based on emotion. Again, feel free to post any firsthand data that supports your "worry".

I'll continue to post data and updates in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
Im not talking about pressure drops in the tstat I'm talking about pressure drops in the cooler. And I said the temperature not moving is a sign of your cooler being oversized, not the fact that it stayed at 165.

An oversized cooler represents an increase in head rise for the pump that circulates ATF. It is very possible for an oversized cooler to cause the pump to run out of ability to properly move the fluid. The same thing happens to our stock turbos.

And yes, most companies will offer a bigger cooler as part of a trailer tow or track performance package. But those coolers also have better associated hardware to move the extra ATF and deal with the increased head associated with more turns, more restricted flow, and a large mass of fluid. You've added resistance to the flow in the form of a very large cooler and you havent checked to see how your system is capable of coping with it.

Yes, heat kills transmissions, but so does over cooling. Cloud9Blue and I are both worried about you inadvertently causing the second condition. Youre looking at each individual component, not the entire system. Thats the worry.

Ohh also to your last point, a 7 minute difference in heat up time is huge to a transmission. Transmission HATE being cold just as they do being hot. A cold transmission has a very short service life.
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Default 11-02-2015, 12:11 PM

TSTAT Diagram. Please tell me what concerns you about this.

[IMG][/IMG]
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jyamona jyamona is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
Absolutely...

(1) Setrab 16-Row, Series 6 Oil Cooler w/-8AN Fitting Option...
http://www.improvedracing.com/setrab...ler-p-251.html

(1) High-Flow Transmission Fluid Thermostat, 165F, -8AN...
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...65f-p-423.html

(6) 90* -8AN Hose Ends (Summit Racing)

(2) Straight -8AN Hose Ends (Summit)

(2) ATF Cooler Adapter Fittings, -8AN (I'll have them up on my site soon)

6' of -8AN Braided Nylon Hose (Summit)

335is Cooler Duct(s) (requires fog-light delete)

The bracket can be made from whatever but I modified a framing bracket from Lowes.
Noo no, parts list for your actual oil cooler that you switched to, vs. the stock one. Please


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Default 11-02-2015, 12:31 PM

Sorry, misunderstood...

(1) Setrab 16-Row, Series 6 Oil Cooler w/-10AN Fitting Option...
http://www.improvedracing.com/setrab...ler-p-251.html

(1) High-Flow Transmission Fluid Thermostat, 215F, -10AN...
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...15f-p-434.html

(4) 90* -10AN Hose Ends (Summit Racing)

(4) Straight -10AN Hose Ends (Summit)

6' of -10AN Braided Nylon Hose (Summit)

(1) Stock Oil Tstat Delete Plate (Various)

(2) -10AN to 1/2 NPT Fittings (for Delete Plate)

Same bracket and duct (335s) I used for the ATF cooler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyamona
Noo no, parts list for your actual oil cooler that you switched to, vs. the stock one. Please
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Default 11-02-2015, 12:48 PM

Youre missing the most important point.

Your very large cooler is causing a head gain in the system. How does that affect pump work and how does that unavoidable associated pressure loss in the system affect the transmission? Neither of those points has anything to do with the bypass thermostat.

And it isnt about beating on the transmission while cold. Transmissions age and wear exceptionally quickly at cold temperatures, much more so than engines. Thats why every automaker ties their transmission cooling to the radiator, as ive said previously. Its to make the ATF heat up as quickly as possible.




And yeah, nobody is forcing me to build a system like yours, in fact I wouldnt. But you are championing your system to the forum. These are not unreasonable points, but somebody who isnt as well versed in fluid dynamics and pump systems as I am won't think of these questions. Thats why im asking if youve thought about it, or done tests.

I dont need numbers to say that youre increasing the head of your system. Its an unavoidable consequence of place a cooler in a flow. What im asking is if youve thought about the extra work youre forcing pumping end of the ATF cooling relay to do. Im going to guess that you havent.


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Cloud9Blue Cloud9Blue is offline
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Default 11-02-2015, 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUbeast86
As I stated above, which you both must have not read, the warmup time is ~7 minutes longer than stock to achieve the 40C mandated by BMW for filling the transmission. Again, this is while IDLING. The ATF heats up A LOT faster UNDER LOAD. I have posted all the data I have currently, so it's not speculation. Do either of you have any data to share that shows that heat is not a contributor to transmission failure?

Regarding why OEMs heat the ATF, see several posts above by Aerotest.

As far as the cooler being oversized due to my fluid being 165F, I'm not sure I follow your logic because I specially chose this tstat based on my research, so that means my system is working as intended. The size of the cooler has nothing to do with the setpoint of the fluid. Thats what the tstat does. The size of the cooler determines how fast you can expel heat and restore the fluid to the tstat setpoint.

Here's the tstat I chose and it clearly states fast warmup times along with minimal pressure drops...

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...65f-p-423.html

"Improved Racing's Flow Series Motorsport (FSM) oil thermostat is a universal solution that can be used with any oil cooler on any vehicle. This update to the popular ENV-101 thermostat features a larger bypass for quicker engine warm-up times while maintaining compact dimensions and weighing 5% less.

The device's unique patent-pending internal design - the result of over a year of research and development - ensures a low pressure drop by placing the bypass valve mechanism completely out of the primary oil flow. This arrangement also allows for a compact design.

High performance vehicles require large oil coolers to ensure that the oil does not overheat during strenuous use. These coolers also introduce the danger of over-cooling the oil and delaying engine warm-up, resulting in horsepower loss, excessive engine wear and reduced gas mileage. Oil thermostats perform the critical function of bypassing the oil cooler until the oil has reached its minimum operating temperature.

This thermostat is designed for use with transmission and differential coolers and maintains a minimum temperature of 165F (74C) +/- 2F exiting the transmission or differential in most conditions.
"
We did read your long posts... Anyhow...

7 mins longer to reach 40C is a LONG time, assuming you are not testing this freezing temperature. What's the ambient temperature for your tests? Unless you are in Alaska or something, it would be safe to bet that your ambient temp was higher than 50F.

I assume the duration will only get exponentially longer when the temperature drops. If this is a mod for a track car, that's fine (assuming your line pressure is still good, which you did not take into account at all). But your car is still a street car right? The clutch packs can wear prematurely even with just normal street driving if your solenoids couldn't generate the necessary line pressure due to overcooled transmission fluid and mis-matched viscosity.

I think some of us might have remembered the lengthy discussion on e9post from last year on similar topic regarding transmission cooling. 135pats posted that the line pressure of our transmission is very sensitive to any additional oil coolers in the way from his and his shop experience trying out similar setup like yours. The pressure drop just wasn't acceptable with his findings.

Anyway, if you insist on having this setup on your car, I would suggest you get some reliable data on the line pressure.


09 BMW E92 335i: EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
07 BMW R1200S: Shine Yellow / Akrapovic / Ohlins

Last edited by Cloud9Blue; 11-02-2015 at 01:05 PM..
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Default 11-02-2015, 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
We did read your long posts... Anyhow...

7 mins longer to reach 40C is a LONG time, assuming you are not testing this freezing temperature. What's the ambient temperature for your tests? Unless you are in Alaska or something, it would be safe to bet that your ambient temp was higher than 50F.

I assume the duration will only get exponentially longer when the temperature drops. If this is a mod for a track car, that's fine (assuming your line pressure is still good, which you did not take into account at all). But your car is still a street car right? The clutch packs can wear prematurely even with just normal street driving if your solenoids couldn't generate the necessary line pressure due to overcooled transmission fluid.

I think some of us might have remembered the lengthy discussion on e9post from last year on similar topic regarding transmission cooling. 135pats posted that the line pressure of our transmission is very sensitive to any additional oil coolers in the way from his and his shop experience trying out similar setup like yours. The pressure drop just wasn't acceptable for his findings. I would suggest you get some first hand data on the line pressure as well with your own setup.

Exactly this. OP hasnt thought about his cooling mods all the way through.


Hey Cloud9Blue, would you mind linking that thread if you can find it quickly? I just tried searching for it and came up empty. Like I said on the last page, ive been thinking of doing a 6 or 10 row cooler in line after the heat exchanger for a few months now.


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Last edited by brokenvert; 11-02-2015 at 01:13 PM..
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Default 11-02-2015, 01:31 PM

fortunately since it's pumping transmission fluid and not something compressible like air it's not going to cause any change in pressure adding the cooler since it will be filled with fluid. its the same as pumping the fluid through the heat stock heat exchanger. it's not like it's going to decompress going into the cooler, the pressure stays the same throughout the system regardless of the heat exchanger design
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Default 11-02-2015, 01:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
Exactly this. OP hasnt thought about his cooling mods all the way through.


Hey Cloud9Blue, would you mind linking that thread if you can find it quickly? I just tried searching for it and came up empty. Like I said on the last page, ive been thinking of doing a 6 or 10 row cooler in line after the heat exchanger for a few months now.
I dunno what happened to the e90post thread... I used to have a few PM exchange with the guy on this topic, but I had cleaned them out recently since I was hitting the PM limits. But there was another on BB, which 135pats posted there as well.

http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...d-turbos/page2

In all honesty, it would be easier just get the CSF radiator and be done with it. That way your coolant will stay cool and so will your AT fluid, without messing up all the OEM fluid routing.


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Default 11-02-2015, 01:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBacon335
fortunately since it's pumping transmission fluid and not something compressible like air it's not going to cause any change in pressure adding the cooler since it will be filled with fluid. its the same as pumping the fluid through the heat stock heat exchanger. it's not like it's going to decompress going into the cooler, the pressure stays the same throughout the system regardless of the heat exchanger design
In an ideal system with no lose of energy from friction, yes...

That is actually not true in reality due to friction involved with the fluid and the pipe lining, bends in the lines themselves, fittings, valves, changes in the pipe elevations.

Fluid dynamics is a pretty complex study, and I honestly don't have the formal education in this topic to explain this in better details. But you can get a rough idea of the pressure loss of a system such as ours with some of the online calculators.


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Default 11-02-2015, 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBacon335
fortunately since it's pumping transmission fluid and not something compressible like air it's not going to cause any change in pressure adding the cooler since it will be filled with fluid. its the same as pumping the fluid through the heat stock heat exchanger. it's not like it's going to decompress going into the cooler, the pressure stays the same throughout the system regardless of the heat exchanger design
Youre confusing compressibility with head loss, they are not the same thing. Head loss (pressure loss) is equivalent to an energy loss in the context of pipe systems.

To put it simply, when you move a fluid through a pipe the fluid experiences an energy loss. Friction from contact with the sides of the pipe, turbulence, bends, nozzles, connections, etc all cause some energy loss in the system. When you lose energy in a fluid system, the fluid will drop in pressure. This is a measureable effect and its caused by the molecules of the fluid losing the energy to bounce around while holding temperature constant (to super simplify). Pressure in this context is directly linked to the amount of work you need to put into a system.

The stock heat exchanger is very small in comparison to a 16 row oil coolers. That cooler is adding a lot of tight and narrow channels along with many extra tight bends. Each of those bends and corridors have an associated energy loss (pressure loss).

Both of those come together to increase the total pressure loss in the system. But OP hasnt addressed the extra work needed to move the fluid through his higher energy dependent system. Thats bad.


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Last edited by brokenvert; 11-02-2015 at 01:48 PM..
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Default 11-02-2015, 01:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9Blue
I dunno what happened to the e90post thread... I used to have a few PM exchange with the guy on this topic, but I had cleaned them out recently since I was hitting the PM limits. But there was another on BB, which 135pats posted there as well.

http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...d-turbos/page2

In all honesty, it would be easier just get the CSF radiator and be done with it. That way your coolant will stay cool and so will your AT fluid, without messing up all the OEM fluid routing.
I didnt realise the transmission cooling system was that sensitive to pressure loss. Maybe youre right. That plus a custom version of the BMW Performance cooler might be the way to go.

Thanks for the link!


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Default 11-02-2015, 04:28 PM

Again, I'll ask you to show me your data that supports your statements. I've provided temp data under several conditions on 2 different cars, which was one of the main concerns in the BB thread.

If pressure loss is, in fact, a factor, then it will just have to manifest itself through slipping or shifting issues, both of which I have yet to experience under any condition. Any impact resulting from pressure losses would have been immediately noticeable at WOT to 6800 RPMs.

You guys should be glad I'm stepping out there and gathering this data. Based on the thread that was posted from BB, everyone on there was very interested in doing it but too scared because of speculation or difficulty in fabricating the system. I figured it out and will continue with data collection. If it nukes my trans, big $hit, I'll buy another one.

I fully understand everything you're stating regarding fluid dynamics and mechanics but I'm willing to take the risk to understand the limits. Based on your philosophy, we shouldn't be able to run above 9psi on these cars but guess what, we are.

Also, my car didn't originally come with an oil cooler. I installed the retro-fit kit from BMW shortly after I bought my car and I don't remember having to upgrade my oil pump to handle the additional head.

Thank you for your contribution to my thread. Your concerns have been noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenvert
Youre confusing compressibility with head loss, they are not the same thing. Head loss (pressure loss) is equivalent to an energy loss in the context of pipe systems.

To put it simply, when you move a fluid through a pipe the fluid experiences an energy loss. Friction from contact with the sides of the pipe, turbulence, bends, nozzles, connections, etc all cause some energy loss in the system. When you lose energy in a fluid system, the fluid will drop in pressure. This is a measureable effect and its caused by the molecules of the fluid losing the energy to bounce around while holding temperature constant (to super simplify). Pressure in this context is directly linked to the amount of work you need to put into a system.

The stock heat exchanger is very small in comparison to a 16 row oil coolers. That cooler is adding a lot of tight and narrow channels along with many extra tight bends. Each of those bends and corridors have an associated energy loss (pressure loss).

Both of those come together to increase the total pressure loss in the system. But OP hasnt addressed the extra work needed to move the fluid through his higher energy dependent system. Thats bad.
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Default 11-02-2015, 04:35 PM

This is amazing, I just spliced my return line and put in a 7 row core in but this looks great. Very impressive and clean looking setup, with some more pressure data, you'll sell a lot of these.


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Default 11-02-2015, 05:15 PM

Great job. Bump!


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