JB4tech.com - International Turbo Tuning Discussion
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zse8h zse8h is offline
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Default Drive train loss - 12-21-2021, 08:18 AM

Anyone know the loss between the flywheel and pavement?

Example: if I am making 698 hp at the flywheel what will the car put down after drivetrain loss? Realistically?


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Default 12-21-2021, 04:25 PM

Yes, itís the m550i piggyback just not sold on retail yet because the instructions havenít been formally updated. However if you call Chris at Carbahn he will work with your local dealer to ensure everything is seamless.
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Default 12-21-2021, 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNmaverick
Yes, itís the m550i piggyback just not sold on retail yet because the instructions havenít been formally updated. However if you call Chris at Carbahn he will work with your local dealer to ensure everything is seamless.
Thanks for the info Man, I will call him.
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Default 12-21-2021, 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNmaverick
Yes, itís the m550i piggyback just not sold on retail yet because the instructions havenít been formally updated. However if you call Chris at Carbahn he will work with your local dealer to ensure everything is seamless.
Yeah, thats one of my biggest issues. I don't have a local Carbahn dealer. Until they're offered through mail order, I don't even have to think about it. From their video, the install is cake. Just the MAPs and thats it. Performance Controller Installation Instructions for M550i xDrive. - YouTube


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Default 12-21-2021, 06:39 PM

Thanks for the link Mike, sure looks easy enough. Amazing how Carbahn gets +114 HP while the JB4 claims +59, big difference. No OBD connection with the Carbahn either.
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zse8h zse8h is offline
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Default 12-22-2021, 03:46 AM

I would think that JB4 Stage 2 (If working properly) could do this, and so does Racechip (Map7). Remember, this is at the flywheel, not the pavement/wheels. Racechip promotes 60+ at the wheels, so a total of 593 HP and JB4 Map 2 should be somewhere around this. I wouldn’t get too excited about CarBahn. Carbahn interchanges flywheel with what Racechip and Jb4 promote at the wheels.

Carbahn shows almost 600hp at the wheels on 100oct. This is where I am most likely using 102oct from Aral here in Germany.
CarBahn = $1250
JB4 = $599
RaceChip = $799

Don’t be fooled; you get the same performance from all 3; however, JB4 doesn't seem to have put in the Dyno/development time to see decent results from their Map 2.
Therefore it’s Race chip or Carbahn for me.

Just a few thoughts.

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Last edited by zse8h; 12-22-2021 at 04:33 AM..
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Default 12-22-2021, 06:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zse8h
I would think that JB4 Stage 2 (If working properly) could do this, and so does Racechip (Map7). Remember, this is at the flywheel, not the pavement/wheels. Racechip promotes 60+ at the wheels, so a total of 593 HP and JB4 Map 2 should be somewhere around this. I wouldn’t get too excited about CarBahn. Carbahn interchanges flywheel with what Racechip and Jb4 promote at the wheels.

Carbahn shows almost 600hp at the wheels on 100oct. This is where I am most likely using 102oct from Aral here in Germany.
CarBahn = $1250
JB4 = $599
RaceChip = $799

Don’t be fooled; you get the same performance from all 3; however, JB4 doesn't seem to have put in the Dyno/development time to see decent results from their Map 2.
Therefore it’s Race chip or Carbahn for me.

Just a few thoughts.

Merry Christmas (Frohe Weihnachten)
Merry Christmas to you also from the US!
I looked again and it is Racechip that claims 60 HP and JB4 100, sorry.
I guess the Racechip on map 7 makes more than the 60whp(around 75flywheel) on one of their lower power maps. This sure is confusing.
A good flash tune sure would be nice.

Last edited by phaser; 12-22-2021 at 09:09 AM..
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Default 12-22-2021, 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNmaverick
Thank you for that insight - from my research on here that’s what I’ve been suspecting. I’m ok with Map 1, I assume further tuning and research will improve down the road. Jb4 still the way to go here over a racechip if I’m just doing stage 1 stuff?
The JB4 is much more advanced than RaceChip or any other piggyback out there due to its CANbus integration. RaceChip is the technical equivalent to our Stage1 tune and CarBahn is between a RaceChip and a JB4 in terms of its ability. Both would be a significant downgrade.

We've done plenty of 2022 models so you should not be having any codes or other issues. I noticed your shop reached out to us for assistance so I'll connect with them to get this resolved for you ASAP. From what they described could be a hardware issue with the JB4 itself in which case we'll replace it as we offer a 5 year warranty on them.


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Default 12-22-2021, 09:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted_8
Map 2 on the 523hp motor is a bit wacky. Asking for 17-18psi at redline is just too much for these turbos.
Seems like you're confused on the mapping for the N63R?

Map2 is an additive boost map, it requests 6psi peak over the factory boost levels. At redline it's requesting 4psi peak over stock. This allows additive maps to scale based on a widely varying factory boost target. It's maps 3+ that are absolute target.


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Default 12-22-2021, 09:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by phaser
Merry Christmas to you also from the US!
I looked again and it is Racechip
RaceChip dynos are mostly bs, just like their fuel economy claims.

It's a 2 channel analog sensor map clamp device. You can add power that way just as we do with our Stage1 but it's very limited since it can only read boost pressure. Can't even read pedal position no less AFR, timing, engine temperatures, etc, that you'd need to safely apply higher power levels. So if you're going to run something low tech like that be sure to keep boost settings no higher than around 3psi over stock. It's all addressed in our FAQ: https://burgertuning.com/pages/faq


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 12-22-2021, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
RaceChip dynos are mostly bs, just like their fuel economy claims.

It's a 2 channel analog sensor map clamp device. You can add power that way just as we do with our Stage1 but it's very limited since it can only read boost pressure. Can't even read pedal position no less AFR, timing, engine temperatures, etc, that you'd need to safely apply higher power levels. So if you're going to run something low tech like that be sure to keep boost settings no higher than around 3psi over stock. It's all addressed in our FAQ: https://burgertuning.com/pages/faq
OK then, I follow your post and thanks for the clarification. I'm sure I speak for all of here who would like to take advantage of all the JB4 benefits.
You market a JB4 for the '21/'22 X5 M50i. When will it be ready for plug and play where the purchaser does not need to send logs etc. to make it work as it is advertised?
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Default 12-22-2021, 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by phaser
OK then, I follow your post and thanks for the clarification. I'm sure I speak for all of here who would like to take advantage of all the JB4 benefits.
You market a JB4 for the '21/'22 X5 M50i. When will it be ready for plug and play where the purchaser does not need to send logs etc. to make it work as it is advertised?
You might have misunderstood what I meant. I assumed the poster was asking for specific tuning advice about his car. And to give that advice I'd want to see his specific data.

No one needs to send logs for map1 or map2. Only those who want to check their boost, timing, AFR, and knock levels. Generally speaking if you're on 91 octane use map1, and if you're on 93 octane use map2, and you'll be fine. JB4 has plenty of built in safety systems as well thanks to CANbus to disable itself if something seems way off.

Now if map2 isn't enough extra power for you and you're looking to take advantage of the JB4's custom mapping features, or if you have some specific problem you need help with, I'd definitely want to see a log for that.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 12-22-2021, 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
You might have misunderstood what I meant. I assumed the poster was asking for specific tuning advice about his car. And to give that advice I'd want to see his specific data.

No one needs to send logs for map1 or map2. Only those who want to check their boost, timing, AFR, and knock levels. Generally speaking if you're on 91 octane use map1, and if you're on 93 octane use map2, and you'll be fine. JB4 has plenty of built in safety systems as well thanks to CANbus to disable itself if something seems way off.

Now if map2 isn't enough extra power for you and you're looking to take advantage of the JB4's custom mapping features, or if you have some specific problem you need help with, I'd definitely want to see a log for that.
I understand and thanks once again Terry.
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Default 12-22-2021, 05:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
You might have misunderstood what I meant. I assumed the poster was asking for specific tuning advice about his car. And to give that advice I'd want to see his specific data.

No one needs to send logs for map1 or map2. Only those who want to check their boost, timing, AFR, and knock levels. Generally speaking if you're on 91 octane use map1, and if you're on 93 octane use map2, and you'll be fine. JB4 has plenty of built in safety systems as well thanks to CANbus to disable itself if something seems way off.

Now if map2 isn't enough extra power for you and you're looking to take advantage of the JB4's custom mapping features, or if you have some specific problem you need help with, I'd definitely want to see a log for that.
I've been on the fence for a while about the JB4 and you have convinced me to go with your product. Looking forward to it and will be in touch tomorrow.
I have also been following the M4 guys on the BMW boards who are using the JB4. You folks sure make those things rip. M4 will be our next car purchase.
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Boosted_8 Boosted_8 is offline
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Default 12-24-2021, 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Seems like you're confused on the mapping for the N63R?

Map2 is an additive boost map, it requests 6psi peak over the factory boost levels. At redline it's requesting 4psi peak over stock. This allows additive maps to scale based on a widely varying factory boost target. It's maps 3+ that are absolute target.
Negative. My logs show the ECU asking for 12psi at the top of the rev range. Add 6psi to that and you get not much more than hot air on these turbos at 6500 rpm

I had to knock it back a few psi on map 6 to preserve my timing.

I would suggest more R&D on the N63 top output engines to optimise the maps.
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Default 12-24-2021, 01:38 PM

I have a log showing 21psi on MAP 1. Shockingly, it was still adding a fair amount of timing. Map 2 would have put it at close to 23psi, which seems a bit high IMO. I think that was in the area my X5M was running.
Attached Files
File Type: csv P65_M1_R1_211020_1436.csv (16.9 KB, 72 views)


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Last edited by Mike_L; 12-24-2021 at 01:42 PM.. Reason: Added log
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zse8h zse8h is offline
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Default 12-25-2021, 12:45 AM

Thanks Boosted. I will not run map 2 until development takes place on our TU3 engine. Thanks for proving all our points/concerns on this.

I would pay anyone's salary for the day at BM if they would just spend the time adjusting the maps for the TU3 engine. I am sorry the excuse of not having a TU3 to test is a poor one. Again if time is money Il happily pay!


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Default 12-25-2021, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted_8
Negative. My logs show the ECU asking for 12psi at the top of the rev range. Add 6psi to that and you get not much more than hot air on these turbos at 6500 rpm

I had to knock it back a few psi on map 6 to preserve my timing.

I would suggest more R&D on the N63 top output engines to optimise the maps.
You're not analyzing it properly. For tuning advice you need to attach the CSV itself so I can look at what is needed. DME_BT is the DME boost request, ECU_PSI is the DME observed boost. Big difference.


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Default 12-25-2021, 11:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_L
I have a log showing 21psi on MAP 1. Shockingly, it was still adding a fair amount of timing. Map 2 would have put it at close to 23psi, which seems a bit high IMO. I think that was in the area my X5M was running.
DME_BT, the factory flash target is ~17psi. Target is 4psi indicating the JB4 is asking for 4psi over stock. And PSI/PSI2 indicate you're making around 4psi over stock. So this is a log showcasing how everything is supposed to look.

In terms of whether map2 is safe for use with your fuel quality post up a log and we can evaluate if you're concerned.
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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 12-25-2021, 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zse8h
Thanks Boosted. I will not run map 2 until development takes place on our TU3 engine. Thanks for proving all our points/concerns on this.

I would pay anyone's salary for the day at BM if they would just spend the time adjusting the maps for the TU3 engine. I am sorry the excuse of not having a TU3 to test is a poor one. Again if time is money Il happily pay!
Personally I think most of the "problem" here is a few well meaning people don't really understand how to interpret their own logs and then pass along their often incorrect analysis as fact. We've spent plenty of time doing TU3 development and are happy to continue that development as needed.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Boosted_8 Boosted_8 is offline
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Default 12-26-2021, 02:43 AM

Some development recommendations for Burger:

Photo installation instructions for 2020 M550i and 2018 M850i

Turn the wastegate connectors the right way around for the TU3

Drop map 1 to around +3psi and map 2 to +4-5 psi. Map 2 is actually slower in the real world than Map1!

Develop support for maps 3 and 4 absolute targets. Using these causes crazy boost behaviour today on TU3

Develop support for code erase on non US cars. It wasn't clear to me this doesn't work on JB4 untill I had already purchased.
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Default 12-26-2021, 04:04 AM

And add CAN Flap support. I want to have the exhaust open all the time. I hate hearing the fake sound through the speakers instead of the engine.


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Default 12-26-2021, 09:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted_8
Some development recommendations for Burger:

Photo installation instructions for 2020 M550i and 2018 M850i

Turn the wastegate connectors the right way around for the TU3

Drop map 1 to around +3psi and map 2 to +4-5 psi. Map 2 is actually slower in the real world than Map1!

Develop support for maps 3 and 4 absolute targets. Using these causes crazy boost behaviour today on TU3
You can use map6 to enter whatever additive boost numbers you'd like. But let's see a JB4 CSV log of map1 and map2 doing similar runs so we can evaluate your setup.

Quote:
Develop support for code erase on non US cars. It wasn't clear to me this doesn't work on JB4 untill I had already purchased.
BMW changed the cars so codes can only be cleared now when the vehicle is in "diagnostic mode", 3 start/stop press quickly foot off brake


Burger Motorsports
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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 12-26-2021, 09:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_L
And add CAN Flap support. I want to have the exhaust open all the time. I hate hearing the fake sound through the speakers instead of the engine.
We don't have the commands for that electronically, you can just unplug the flaps if you want them open full time.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 12-27-2021, 08:57 AM

Despite 'not knowing how to analyze my own logs' I'm the only guy with a JB4 running 10's on the dragy leaders board...
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