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Terry @ BMS's Avatar
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Default DCI Hot Air Myth Testing - 03-25-2014, 04:33 PM

Repost from 2012:

So for this round of testing we used our 135i which happens to be 100% stock at the moment aside from the JB4 using 91 octane + NOS octane booster (~93 octane). I've been testing map 2 with a default CPS offset lately so kept that all the same between both tests.

The two sets of tests were performed within 20 minutes of each other under identical conditions. First I did a 40-110mph sprint (on a private track) to evaluate the intake temperature increases throughout the run. Secondly an 8 minute (limit of JB4 logs) idle test simply logging the car with the hood down and AC on to monitor intake temperatures at rest.

According to "hot air" conspiracy theorists the dual cone intake should result in higher intake temperatures during the wide open throttle run, no power gains, and heat up dramatically sitting at idle soaking up all that engine heat.

First up: Stock intake system




Next up: BMS Dual Cone Intake




Results:

I hate to say it again but the results were exactly as expected. The DCI did not produce higher air intake temperatures at wide open throttle, did not heat soak more sitting at a standstill for 8 minutes, and all around felt faster.

The primary reason for this is that the filter inlet temps have a very minimal effect on the engine inlet temps. At idle the low air volume circles around the hot turbo/manifold, and across an intercooler with no airflow, resulting in increasing temperatures regardless of the inlet temperature. At full throttle air in the engine bay is full consumed by the engine every few seconds, the heat at full throttle comes from the compression within the turbocharger and then is offset by the intercooler. Again the filter inlet temperatures have very little effect on the engine inlet temperatures. But the turbo able to draw air in more with less restriction efficiently increases boost and in itself offsets any filter inlet temperature difference.

You have a lot of options for intakes but three+ years later the tried and true DCI is still the intake of choice for those of us who are serious about performance...


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AVaccarezza AVaccarezza is offline
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Default 10-23-2014, 05:09 PM

Respectfully engaging as your level of knowledge is much deeper than mine... I agree with the conditions you're testing as WOT produces such high CFM rates that it is impossible to have drastic deltas from ambient air temp to intake manifold temp. However, would you assume that when in stop and go traffic with 90-100 degree heat that you could get a nice gulp of hot air or under moderate driving conditions you would see much higher IAT figures? When it comes to my personal experience (AFE DCI) I saw much higher IAT figures when it wasn't pulling from the stock front feed hence your idle test shocked me. When it comes down to air intakes surface area on the air filter(s) is the key and I have always said that the cheapest cone intake you can find is typically the best if your just looking for performance gained vs. dollars spent.


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Default 04-03-2015, 12:59 PM

jsut today we talked about this with my frends =) it amazing test and post. Thanks Terry
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Default 05-12-2015, 09:12 AM

FWIW i noticed a loss in power when i took off the stock airbox and put on the DCI not to mention higher IATs. wished i would have just got a drop in.


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Default 05-12-2015, 09:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVaccarezza
Respectfully engaging as your level of knowledge is much deeper than mine... I agree with the conditions you're testing as WOT produces such high CFM rates that it is impossible to have drastic deltas from ambient air temp to intake manifold temp. However, would you assume that when in stop and go traffic with 90-100 degree heat that you could get a nice gulp of hot air or under moderate driving conditions you would see much higher IAT figures? When it comes to my personal experience (AFE DCI) I saw much higher IAT figures when it wasn't pulling from the stock front feed hence your idle test shocked me. When it comes down to air intakes surface area on the air filter(s) is the key and I have always said that the cheapest cone intake you can find is typically the best if your just looking for performance gained vs. dollars spent.

same here with the afe, higher intake temps = less power.


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Default 05-12-2015, 09:14 AM

its common sense that the air in the engine bay right on top or next to the motor is going to be hotter than a airbox thats sucking from the front grilles i dont care what any logs say


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Default 05-12-2015, 09:26 AM

I think people are underestimating just how much air gets evacuated from the under hood area at low speeds and even at idle. I find a little throttle blip or two is enough to move some hot air out and see IAT drop a bit f I have been sitting in traffic. I mean, the intercooler sits right in front of the hot radiator, think of the heat transfer/soak you get just from that when at a standstill. The air temp outside of the intake system isn't much concern as long as there is some kind flow in, so Just keep the snorkel in place with the DCIs.
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Default 05-12-2015, 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by anti
its common sense that the air in the engine bay right on top or next to the motor is going to be hotter than a airbox thats sucking from the front grilles i dont care what any logs say
Clearly someone has no understanding of the above evidence nor why hotter temps but greater CFM can still work in your favour


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Default 05-12-2015, 09:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorsprung_CJB
I think people are underestimating just how much air gets evacuated from the under hood area at low speeds and even at idle. I find a little throttle blip or two is enough to move some hot air out and see IAT drop a bit f I have been sitting in traffic. I mean, the intercooler sits right in front of the hot radiator, think of the heat transfer/soak you get just from that when at a standstill. The air temp outside of the intake system isn't much concern as long as there is some kind flow in, so Just keep the snorkel in place with the DCIs.
I did the math at some point years ago and found at redline you are evacuating the engine bay every few seconds, lol. But what people like "anti" here do is get fixated on "hot air under the hood" and fail to understand the other factors that contribute to inlet temperatures. It turns out ambient inlet temperature is only a tiny factor. At idle and off boost the largest factor is the 1000f degree heat-sync of a turbo & manifold that air is slowly passing by absorbing heat, at a time when there is very little air going across the intercooler to offset it. Thus temps quickly rocket up to 160f OEM airbox or otherwise.


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Default 05-12-2015, 10:15 AM

if ambient and inlet temps are a tiny factor why do we spend thousands on methanol injection ,better intercoolers etc and yes i agree with your thoughts about idle and off boost being the most 'heated' times which is why i believe it kinda contradicts you saying "The DCI did not produce higher air intake temperatures at wide open throttle"


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Default 05-12-2015, 10:20 AM

"At idle and off boost the largest factor is the 1000f degree heat-sync of a turbo"

yes which heats the engine bay air near where the dci are, whereas the stock airbox would be sucking from outside the engine bay, cooler air? i dunno. either way i dont think its simply a coincidence that you have more than one person saying their iats went up after installing DCI logically it makes sense. i can understand how someone in your position would not want to bash the very products they sell which puts you in somewhat of a biased position id like to see an independent test just like you did with dci vs stock airbox and i bet the stock airbox keeps iats lower JS either way dont take it personally or get me wrong im a huge fan of your work i just wanted to say that i personally experienced what felt like a loss in power on my butt dyno and def. logging higher iats.


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Default 05-12-2015, 10:22 AM

btw 52 > 51 so it could actually be said from these logs that the stock box does in fact keep it cooler even if its only one degree lol


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Default 05-12-2015, 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element
Clearly someone has no understanding of the above evidence nor why hotter temps but greater CFM can still work in your favour
higher cfm yes thats what the turbos are for not the intake the cfm is the same as the boost pressure is the same? if it was a NA car i could totally see justifying the higher temps for a little better flow but we have compressors to do that job for us


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Default 05-12-2015, 10:24 AM

i clearly understand the above evidence, the stock airbox in fact stayed cooler!

compare using the temp increase not the ending temp as the beginning temps were different


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Default 05-12-2015, 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by anti
"At idle and off boost the largest factor is the 1000f degree heat-sync of a turbo"

yes which heats the engine bay air near where the dci are, whereas the stock airbox would be sucking from outside the engine bay, cooler air? i dunno. either way i dont think its simply a coincidence that you have more than one person saying their iats went up after installing DCI logically it makes sense. i can understand how someone in your position would not want to bash the very products they sell which puts you in somewhat of a biased position id like to see an independent test just like you did with dci vs stock airbox and i bet the stock airbox keeps iats lower JS either way dont take it personally or get me wrong im a huge fan of your work i just wanted to say that i personally experienced what felt like a loss in power on my butt dyno and def. logging higher iats.
If you logged significantly higher IATs with the DCI installed then you were doing something wrong or not comparing equal conditions. Typically those who "feel" a power loss are just fooled by the different sounds the DCI makes. It can be difficult to feel +-15whp in a 350-400whp car. But make no mistake, the factory intake is a restriction > 320hp. At 400whp its a huge restriction. You'd feel this. It turns out inlet temps don't change much but they'd have to change 80 degrees+ to makeup for the airflow restriction the factory airbox introduces at higher RPM and boost levels.

Again DCIs and hot air are difficult for many to understand as they are fixated on the concept of hot air in hot air out. But so much heat is added after the air comes in, a 30-40 degree delta coming in is reduced to a small 0-5 degree delta by the time it enters the engine. No faith is required here. These are simple tests anyone can do. Many hundreds have done them and come to the same conclusion. And then there are maybe 10% of those out there like yourself who convince themselves the factory airbox is better and go happily on their way. Unless you are at the track or dyno often you may never know what you're missing anyway. So run whatever works best for you.



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Default 05-13-2015, 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by anti
i clearly understand the above evidence, the stock airbox in fact stayed cooler!

compare using the temp increase not the ending temp as the beginning temps were different
Instead of dictating the odds here how about you do your own testing or provide testing that contradicts Terry's above. That way your cold hard data can compete with the cold hard data provided here. Your (or anyone else's) gut feel (i.e. not scientific/anecdotal evidence) is useless in settling this debate.


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Default 05-14-2015, 02:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
If you logged significantly higher IATs with the DCI installed then you were doing something wrong or not comparing equal conditions. Typically those who "feel" a power loss are just fooled by the different sounds the DCI makes. It can be difficult to feel +-15whp in a 350-400whp car. But make no mistake, the factory intake is a restriction > 320hp. At 400whp its a huge restriction. You'd feel this. It turns out inlet temps don't change much but they'd have to change 80 degrees+ to makeup for the airflow restriction the factory airbox introduces at higher RPM and boost levels.

Again DCIs and hot air are difficult for many to understand as they are fixated on the concept of hot air in hot air out. But so much heat is added after the air comes in, a 30-40 degree delta coming in is reduced to a small 0-5 degree delta by the time it enters the engine. No faith is required here. These are simple tests anyone can do. Many hundreds have done them and come to the same conclusion. And then there are maybe 10% of those out there like yourself who convince themselves the factory airbox is better and go happily on their way. Unless you are at the track or dyno often you may never know what you're missing anyway. So run whatever works best for you.

Greet Job Terry, Fair Enough Clarification


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Default 05-18-2015, 12:27 PM

This gets beaten to death on every Turbo platform. The ones who never believe the results are the guys who spent tons of money on CAIs.

Your starting intake temps at the intake have very little to do with your ending temps. The turbos will heat any air up to a very high level. The deciding factor in your IATs at your intake manifold is the efficiency of your intercooler. You could have the best Cold Air Intake ever invented and have pretty similar IATs as a guy with $10 SRI if your intercoolers are the same.

All someone has to do is search google and they can find 100s of test very similar to the one here and see the same results
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Default 05-19-2015, 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by csu87
This gets beaten to death on every Turbo platform. The ones who never believe the results are the guys who spent tons of money on CAIs.

Your starting intake temps at the intake have very little to do with your ending temps. The turbos will heat any air up to a very high level. The deciding factor in your IATs at your intake manifold is the efficiency of your intercooler. You could have the best Cold Air Intake ever invented and have pretty similar IATs as a guy with $10 SRI if your intercoolers are the same.

All someone has to do is search google and they can find 100s of test very similar to the one here and see the same results
So true!
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Default 05-25-2015, 07:37 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAIxeQUSg-Q

!!!


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Default 05-25-2015, 07:38 AM

32HP from a DCI YEAH RIGHT HAHAHAA


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Default 05-25-2015, 11:03 AM

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=579127

I am by far not the only one, we must all be crazy :P


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Default 05-25-2015, 04:09 PM

32whp is nothing. Now that we've found an additional restriction in the turbo inlets n54s are picking up as much as 70whp oem turbo with better open intakes.

It's a details business. The critical detail is how much of a restriction the factory airbox is. If it's not a restriction gains are low. If it's a large restriction gains can be huge.


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Default 05-25-2015, 04:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by anti
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=579127

I am by far not the only one, we must all be crazy :P
lol a post from 2011? A video of another model car where the airbox isn't a restriction? As I said a small fraction prefer the OEM airbox for various reason. Maybe five out of every one hundred. They just miss out on the free hp the rest of us get to enjoy. No big deal. If the OEM intake does it for you then stay with it.


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Default 05-26-2015, 01:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by anti
Ok, so let's ignore the fact that you're not measuring apples to apples using a video that features totally different cars that, at their respective level of modification, are not intake flow limited. All the video actually proves is that your claim that there are significant losses to be had with an open filter is incorrect. Congrats on disproving your own original argument

Still waiting on that cold hard proof from you to compare to Terry's. Youtube videos and conjecture from one source is not cutting it.


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